Polygyny IS a salvation issue.

[Mark C]

So I’m confused, do all the verses reconcile or not?

It's obvious, and you don't see it. But we both know that if I answer that question here, you'll delete it. The answer is right there, in plain sight, directly in my last post, however.

The key phrase is "another jesus." And which of those two unfaithful wives, still in exile, went for it. Just as Paul warned.

 

[NBTX11]

@Mark C how do I get saved then? I confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed in my heart that God raised him from the dead. I believe this with every fiber of my being. Am I not going to the kingdom of God?

 

[Mark C]

@Mark C how do I get saved then? I confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed in my heart that God raised him from the dead. I believe this with every fiber of my being. Am I not going to the kingdom of God?

I'm not about to fall into the trap of "telling you" what you must do. But the Scriptures that apply are clear:

Work out your OWN Salvation with fear and trembling. Why?

And, yet again, what does Shaul mean when he warns about those who preach "another jesus, whom we did NOT preach"? Does the blood of that imitation count for anything?

[I have offered "razors" about how we can discern the Real from the fake - they are now Verbotten to discuss, but RELATE to whether or not He lied in Matthew 5:17-19.]

"If you love Me, keep My commands." What does THAT mean?

And, does the Real Messiah KNOW YOU?

Finally, on the subject of this thread:
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(I John 2:3-4)

Isn't that pretty broad? Which commandments? Even the ones we were told are "done away with" - like polygyny, just for one example?

To personalize my response, since I DO attempt to work out 'yashuati' [my own Salvation] --

I choose to keep as much of His Instruction (some might know the Hebrew word, but, uh oh!) as I can. I'm not a woman, king, or cohen - so much is not applicable. But the parts about MARRIAGE certainly are.

And yet I've been told by many self-described 'christians', and even 'preachers,' that I'm "going to hell" for having, or even BELIEVING, that I or any man can have more than one wife.

I don't think THEY know Him. You may choose to disagree.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

I'm not about to fall into the trap of "telling you" what you must do. But the Scriptures that apply are clear:

Work out your OWN Salvation with fear and trembling. Why?

And, yet again, what does Shaul mean when he warns about those who preach "another jesus, whom we did NOT preach"? Does the blood of that imitation count for anything?

[I have offered "razors" about how we can discern the Real from the fake - they are now Verbotten to discuss, but RELATE to whether or not He lied in Matthew 5:17-19.]

"If you love Me, keep My commands." What does THAT mean?

And, does the Real Messiah KNOW YOU?

Finally, on the subject of this thread:
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(I John 2:3-4)

Isn't that pretty broad? Which commandments? Even the ones we were told are "done away with" - like polygyny, just for one example?

To personalize my response, since I DO attempt to work out 'yashuati' [my own Salvation] --

I choose to keep as much of His Instruction (some might know the Hebrew word, but, uh oh!) as I can. I'm not a woman, king, or cohen - so much is not applicable. But the parts about MARRIAGE certainly are.

And yet I've been told by many self-described 'christians', and even 'preachers,' that I'm "going to hell" for having, or even BELIEVING, that I or any man can have more than one wife.

I don't think THEY know Him. You may choose to disagree.

Whoa! Mark!! Did you say you believe in... multiple wives?! Apostate!!!! How can you dare show your face in public? LOL

 

[BiblicalLiteralist]

I think the point @BiblicalLiteralist is making isn't that it's a salvation issue from the perspective of someone who believes polygyny is okay, but that people who hold to monogamy-only treat it as a salvation issue sometimes. "If you think having multiple wives is okay... are you even saved?"

This is what I was getting at, reverse their logic on them. Pete is absolutley correct though, once you know and choose to disobey, it becomes a salvation issue.

 

[NBTX11]

I'm not about to fall into the trap of "telling you" what you must do. But the Scriptures that apply are clear:

Work out your OWN Salvation with fear and trembling. Why?

And, yet again, what does Shaul mean when he warns about those who preach "another jesus, whom we did NOT preach"? Does the blood of that imitation count for anything?

[I have offered "razors" about how we can discern the Real from the fake - they are now Verbotten to discuss, but RELATE to whether or not He lied in Matthew 5:17-19.]

"If you love Me, keep My commands." What does THAT mean?

And, does the Real Messiah KNOW YOU?

Finally, on the subject of this thread:
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(I John 2:3-4)

Isn't that pretty broad? Which commandments? Even the ones we were told are "done away with" - like polygyny, just for one example?

To personalize my response, since I DO attempt to work out 'yashuati' [my own Salvation] --

I choose to keep as much of His Instruction (some might know the Hebrew word, but, uh oh!) as I can. I'm not a woman, king, or cohen - so much is not applicable. But the parts about MARRIAGE certainly are.

And yet I've been told by many self-described 'christians', and even 'preachers,' that I'm "going to hell" for having, or even BELIEVING, that I or any man can have more than one wife.

I don't think THEY know Him. You may choose to disagree.

What do you do with verses such as these, which say working for salvation is not required?

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV - 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 10:13 KJV
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Mark C]

What do you do with verses such as these, which say working for salvation is not required?

It's not. It's a 'free gift.'

But - what does Paul say is THEREFORE your "rightful service" to Him Who saved you?

Why does Yahushua say, "IF you love Me, keep My commands."

It's not hard, and the way He puts it is far simpler than how 'the church' tries to twist Paul.

We walk in obedience just like the better son in the parable did, and because we hope to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

 

[Mark C]

PS> The Romans reference is to Joel, and what it REALLY says (check it out!) is,

"...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord YHVH shall be saved."

I've always thought that IF that describes a "salvation issue," as it seems to, we'd better get the verse - and that Name - right.

 

[FollowingHim2]

PS> The Romans reference is to Joel, and what it REALLY says (check it out!) is,

I've always thought that IF that describes a "salvation issue," as it seems to, we'd better get the verse - and that Name - right.

Are you saying, that if you call God the wrong name, you're not saved? Really?

 

[Mark C]

Are you saying, that if you call God the wrong name, you're not saved? Really?

Good grief! READ it, fer cryin' out loud! What does it actually say? That's ALL I suggest; when it comes to Scripture, just try to read what it actually says!


PS> I have know any NUMBER of Bible-believing Jews who get VERY angry at 'xtians' who have pissed them off and driven them away by "evangelism" that says "you are going to HELL! Because you don't know JESUS." And, here it is, "there is only one name under heaven" that YOU can be saved! They quote Romans 10 - or so they think. And they don't know what the original text even says!

How's THAT for "sacred naming"?

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Good grief! READ it, fer cryin' out loud! What does it actually say? That's ALL I suggest; when it comes to Scripture, just try to read what it actually says!


PS> I have know any NUMBER of Bible-believing Jews who get VERY angry at 'xtians' who have pissed them off and driven them away by "evangelism" that says "you are going to HELL! Because you don't know JESUS." And, here it is, "there is only one name under heaven" that YOU can be saved! They quote Romans 10 - or so they think. And they don't know what the original text even says!

How's THAT for "sacred naming"?

That is kinda funny. I was having a conversation with my dad a couple of days ago and he was telling me about his knee that was healed. The story got to the point of him declaring that God responds to faith even for those that are not saved. His words, not mine... He used as an example a man he knows has healed many people through prayer. But, that man is not saved. Again, his words.... I asked him how he knows that he is not saved and he told me that it is because he has not been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. I asked him what he was baptized into... He said that he didn't know. I contended that maybe he doesn't know that man as well as he thinks he does. He agreed but then said that he knew he was not baptized in Jesus name because people who ARE baptized in Jesus name make sure and tell you that they were. That they are proud of that fact and will make sure you know it as it is part of their salvational story.

I said, "ah... So what about the people in Germany?"

Well, he said, they have their own name for him but we are english speaking people! LOL

His understanding of God is fervent but flawed. I still love him.

 

[The Revolting Man]

It's obvious, and you don't see it. But we both know that if I answer that question here, you'll delete it. The answer is right there, in plain sight, directly in my last post, however.

The key phrase is "another jesus." And which of those two unfaithful wives, still in exile, went for it. Just as Paul warned.

The phrase "another Jesus" was not in any verse we were trying to reconcile. How is that a key phrase in this discussion?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Good grief! READ it, fer cryin' out loud! What does it actually say? That's ALL I suggest; when it comes to Scripture, just try to read what it actually says!


PS> I have know any NUMBER of Bible-believing Jews who get VERY angry at 'xtians' who have pissed them off and driven them away by "evangelism" that says "you are going to HELL! Because you don't know JESUS." And, here it is, "there is only one name under heaven" that YOU can be saved! They quote Romans 10 - or so they think. And they don't know what the original text even says!

How's THAT for "sacred naming"?

We all read it Mark, just most of us don't see what you see.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I hope that none of us believes the simplistic nonsense that is taught by Churchianity, that repeating a few words is all that is entailed to secure your place in Heaven.

It occurred to me that I responded to a different claim than the one you made. You talked about "securing your place in heaven" and I talked about the beginning of the salvation process. These are two different things in my opinion. I do ascribe to the view John Bunyan laid out in "Pilgrim's Progress"; salvation is the beginning of the journey that leads to heaven, not the end.

I'm not going to completely retract my objection because I think (based on other conversations) that I wasn't completely off track in the observation. But strictly speaking, yes, your claim that saying a prayer is too simplistic an explanation of how to get to heaven is correct.

 

[Mark C]

We all read it Mark, just most of us don't see what you see.

You try to speak for God Himself, no wonder you claim to speak for "most" - which here means most who are allowed to speak.

But you'll not I did NOT say what He meant - just quoted what He said. I can't help what you won't see, or make you hear a shofar you prefer to ignore.

 

[The Revolting Man]

You try to speak for God Himself, no wonder you claim to speak for "most" - which here means most who are allowed to speak.

But you'll not I did NOT say what He meant - just quoted what He said. I can't help what you won't see, or make you hear a shofar you prefer to ignore.

How did you get all of that from "most of us don't see what you see"? It's a simple statement of opinion yet somehow you turned it into a sign of apostasy and an attempt at Divine usurpation. Unless you're God though that's a ridiculous statement. I didn't say God didn't see what you saw. I said most of us don't see what you see. I don't claim to know what God sees. I claim that most people don't agree with you, a claim you back up every time someone tries to agree with you, and you invariably say, "You don't know the half of it."

It must be exhausting being you.

 

[Mark C]

The phrase "another Jesus" was not in any verse we were trying to reconcile. How is that a key phrase in this discussion?

II Corinthians 11:4. It's a warning. Those with "eyes to see" will get it - the reason (and he SAYS so!) that Paul GAVE that warning was because, and I quote in modern English, "I'm afraid [when this happens] that you just might put up with it."

There are many people - IMHO - who don't recognize a 'fake jesus' from the Real Messiah, Whose 'job description' is right in the literal meaning of His real Name - the "Salvation of Yah" - Yahushua.

If He was not "sinless" - He was a fake.
If He violated Deuternomy 13, he was a fake, and even, by His own Word, deserving of death.

If He taught against His own Instruction about marriage, as just one example relevant here, He was a fake.

But He - the Real One - did not.

And - IMHO again - the reason He gave us SO much information, so many 'proof texts' through His "torah and prophets" (as He referenced in that verse you don't like, Matthew 5:17-19) about His Character, and thus 'name' and very Identity, was so there would be no doubt about the real versus the fake.

"Because false christs" WILL arise and deceive NOT just many, but, "if possible, even the elect." (Matthew 24:24)

He said so!
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven..."
What, even if they say 'the Prayer'? Could there possibly be something more?
"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’"

Hmm. "in your name." Wouldn't that be enough? What is He getting at here? Does He really expect (for example) them to have the ability to discern between Him and an imposter? (The demons, even, in Act 19:15 seemed to have a clue.)

“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)
Interesting. Wonder what He could've mean by THAT? I guess "some" will understand what He meant, "many" - maybe even "most" won't see it.

"...for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:13-14 - that very same Sermon on the Mount where He said "not one yod or tiddle" would change, at least 'till He finished the speech.)

If "salvation" was so trivial that all it took was mouthing a few words, then why did He (and His 'taught-ones') spend so much time issuing warnings about "false christs" and "false prophets," and "see that you are not deceived"?

SO, just because you asked so nicely this time, Zec, I will venture an OPINION:

If people are duped into worshipping "another jesus, who [Paul and company] did not preach" --
instead of the real "Salvation of YHVH" then perhaps they have a concern.

NO - let me be VERY clear:

I am NOT telling ANYONE that they are, or are NOT, "saved."

Just that there are enough clear warnings in Scripture, and enough "fake" out there, that there is a reason we are told to "work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling."

And a 'jesus' who allegedly re-wrote his own 'word' to outlaw something - polygyny, patriarchy, and His Instruction about marriage - that was literally the foundation of His people, is a prime candidate for such a fake. IMHO.

 

[Mark C]

It must be exhausting being you.

Nah, but dealing with scoffers is a challenge, Zec.

Thankfully, there is great joy in "speaking His Truth boldly," as we "ought to," and trying to be "found doing His work when He returns." (Oops? Is that "works-based" somethin'-er-other?)

I am increasingly inclined, and thanks for this thread, to suggest that polygyny IS in fact very much a "Salvation issue."
Because if we claim to "believe IN Him," (or "on Him," for the Olde English types) - how can we not simply BELIEVE Him?

Ooops, again. There's another one. Didn't somebody in there say, "Even the demons believe, and tremble"?

Maybe actually believing Him, and walking as if we do, is more important.

 

[MeganC]

Bear with me here:

If someone builds a railroad then the first thing they do is to decide to build a railroad.
Then they conduct a survey to figure out the exact route they need to use.
Before or after the survey they seek out funds for the project.
Then comes the hard work of building the route which might take years. Tunnels, bridges, and etc. must be built.
Then a bed of gravel is laid down on the route.
Then the rails get laid.
Finally a train starts to run on the resulting railroad.

But you don't start running the railroad before it is built. Certain things must be done first regardless of your opinion on the matter.

Likewise, salvation must always precede the works if one is to be saved.
Speaking in tongues will not save you but it can be evidence of salvation.
Following the Torah will not save you but it can be evidence of salvation.
&etc.

Everything flows from salvation. It has to happen first.

In my circumstance I was compelled to live a Godly life.
As the years went by I saw how living a Godly life led to living a happy life.
One day I realized the wisdom of God and accepted God as real.

My one issue is I typically do not claim to have faith in God and I admire those who do.

I have certainty. I have experienced God acting in my life and for me that's enough to commit to Him, His Son, and His Holy Spirit.

What I do and what I have done follows from this. The things I do are a result of my convictions and they are not a requirement or a condition of my convictions.

So if anyone wants to speak in tongues, wear tzitzits on their clothes, put a phylactery on their forehead, and these actions make you closer to God then you do that. May God bless you in abundance.

Myself, just me, I won't and I don't need to. God already revealed Himself to me in my life and I know He is real and I also know He knows me. If He needs me to do something then He'll let me know. I am certain of this.

Am I saved? I am certain of this. God would not waste His time on me if He hadn't wanted me to be saved. And He saved me for sure. My life would be a ruin without Him acting in my life.

Just saying.

 

[steve]

It occurred to me that I responded to a different claim than the one you made. You talked about "securing your place in heaven" and I talked about the beginning of the salvation process. These are two different things in my opinion. I do ascribe to the view John Bunyan laid out in "Pilgrim's Progress"; salvation is the beginning of the journey that leads to heaven, not the end.

I'm not going to completely retract my objection because I think (based on other conversations) that I wasn't completely off track in the observation. But strictly speaking, yes, your claim that saying a prayer is too simplistic an explanation of how to get to heaven is correct.

Too many people think that there is no “salvation process”, as you called it. They teach that once the statement has been made their place in Heaven has been secured for eternity.
People call Yeshuah Lord, but don’t make him Lord of their lives. To them he will say that he never knew them, despite their protestations about what they did in his name.

Paul warns us to walk the walk in fear and trembling lest we arrogantly assume that we have made the correct pronouncement and are secure in our place. Be careful that you aren’t helping people feel secure when the Holy Spirit is attempting to draw them into a deeper walk.

A big question is how much of the Old Testament can be ignored while still making Yeshuah Lord of your life. Everyone is drawing the line in a different place, and some will be wrong.