Paranormal Activity, Ghosts, & Demons

[Anonymous]

An Alternate Explanation for Demons, Angels, and Satan

People are trying to convince me that they are real but I say they aren't. What does the bible say about it? I know of just 1 place in the bible where it talks about the man that was possessed with a demon and Jesus cast out the demon into the pigs. Can anyone give me any ideas on what is right and wrong?

Hi Stacie,

Hmmm...I'm not really looking for trouble, but there's an alternative explanation for all of these things, which is consistent with the Bible and history. Most likely this will be shouted down and considered a type of heresy, but I believe it better accounts for the supposed spiritual beings in Scripture other than God and human.

My belief is that only God and humans are spiritual beings. There are no others.

Here's why: God's glory belongs solely to Him. Nobody helped Him create the Universe, nobody is necessary to move behind the scenes. He created mankind to be with Him--we are made in His image, spirit, soul, and body. Nothing else is. If other beings existed that were spirits, which could do all the things people ascribe to them, they'd reduce the glory of God. After all, which is greater: God directly intervening in our lives, or having a bunch of soulless angels doing His bidding?

But to go on, the first issue is angels. "Angel" in English means a spiritual being. The words used in Hebrew and Greek do not. "Malak" (Hebrew) and "Angelos" (Greek) just mean "messenger". The idea that the messenger is spiritual is inferred by the translators from the context.

However, if one goes through Scripture and replaces "angel" with the word "messenger" and reads it that way, it soon becomes apparent that no spiritual beings are really necessary to account for the messengers of God. They are either just plain old human messengers, or they are the "messenger of the Lord" (who appears to often be God Himself in His bodily form), or they are prophets or humans walking in the power of God. If you clear your mind from the idea that "angels" are spiritual beings, and just read the words for what they really mean, "messenger", then a much greater view of God and His glory appears.

Next we have Satan. Well, actually we have "satan" and another related term, "devil". The word "satan" in Hebrew and Greek just means "an opponent". It isn't a name for a specific person. Just like "angel", the term "satan" has come to mean something the original word did not mean. Regular humans are called "satan" in Scripture, yet the word is translated differently when the translators don't think it is Satan. In Numbers 22:22, the messenger of the Lord is called a "satan"!!! "Devil" means "accuser", and is used roughly the same way as "satan". If one replaces "satan" and "devil" in Scripture with their meanings, then again, an entirely different picture is revealed of God's glorious nature. He doesn't have an arch-enemy that's trying to take His place (for which there is no true Scriptural evidence), but instead there are many different HUMANS that are opponents or accusers throughout Scripture. Some are good, such as the "messenger of the Lord", and some are evil, as the man who convinced David to number Israel. But there is little reason to believe that any of them are some powerful being throughout history that is in charge of Hell and wants our souls, and is an opponent to God.

I'll get to demons in a moment, but first, it is interesting to see how these things developed throughout history. Look in the Bible and search for "satan" and "demon". What you'll find is that "satan" rarely occurs in the Old Testament, which spans a far greater piece of history than the New, and "demon" doesn't occur at all in the Old Testament (in the original languages).

It turns out that there is a reason for this. Israel and Judah were all hauled out of the land into Assyria and Babylon. There they learned the Babylonian and Assyrian ways and the Babylonian and Assyrian tongues. They came back to Israel speaking Aramaic, and believing in the vastly complex demonology and angelology of the Babylonians and Assyrians. The Babylonian Talmud and other rabbinic writings are full of this demonology, yet prior to Babylon the Israelites had no such beliefs written anywhere. It's my belief that they incorporated the false teachings of the Babylonians into the true worship of God, and traded His glory for an imaginary Universe filled with all sorts of invisible beings that fought an invisible battle around us, causing us to sin or protecting us from it, rather than accepting the blame for sin upon our own sinful lusts and desires as Scripture says.

Anyway, what are demons or devils? Well, there is no source for them in Scripture, in my opinion, despite the belief that they are somehow linked to fallen angels. There's really not any good proof of that at all. Instead, every account of them in the New Testament shows them to represent some type of mental illness as opposed to visible, physical illness. The ancients didn't necessarily understand mental illness as we do today, with physical symptoms in the brain which can be healed or alleviated with medicines. For thousands of years they attempted to let headaches out of the skull by drilling holes in it. Clearly, they did not fully understand mental illness. It is highly probable that they called all mental illness "devils". For instance, there was one boy who was affected by what appears to be epilepsy, which threw him on the ground and into the fire. Two others may have had multiple personalities, the one who called himself "Legion" and Mary who had "seven devils". If we DON'T believe that "devils" represents mental illness, then we have an amazing lack of any other description of mental illness, which we know to have existed commonly among ancient peoples from historical records.

Am I right? I don't know. However, this fits Scripture and the nature of God much better, in my opinion, than assuming that there are droves of magical beings making everything happen behind the scenes, and that we are unwitting participants in their games. God seems to me much greater than that, and He has a hand in His own world, moving things as He desires, not depending upon ranks of angels, but rather upon men and women to do His bidding, because we are made in His image, because He deserves all the glory, and because He has the power to do all things.

I'm not saying that there are not questions, nor that the ancients didn't actually believe in all these spiritual beings, because they clearly did. But at which point did they start believing in them? Was it from the beginning, or from when they were sold a lie in Babylon? Scripture can be read either way, and depending upon your worldview and what you had been taught, you'll probably just go with what the traditions are. But be willing to consider these things. If you read Scripture with only the original wording, without the traditions you have been taught, what would you believe? Would you honestly believe that these angels, satan, devils, and demons existed? I don't believe any rational being filled with the Spirit of God would...

For those that call this heresy, consider that none of this is central to the Christian faith and one can believe either way and still be a Christian. Be willing to consider it and research it, like you have polygamy.


John for Christ

 

[sadanyagci]

So Jesus cast a legion of "mental illnesses" into the pigs?

So these people with "mental illnesses" somehow knew that Jesus was the Christ?

So Jesus told these alternate personalities to be quiet and not say who He is? Because mental illnesses have supernatural powers, right?

A man with multiple personalities broke his chains easily, and no one could bind him?

So Jesus said that when a mental illness is cast out, it goes through dry places, seeking rest but finding none... then the mental illness says to itself (it's a smart mental illness, obviously) "let's go back home!" The mental illness goes to see its man, and seeing that he is healthy, it takes 7 mental illnesses more sick than itself and makes the final state of that man worse than the original state?

Having personal experience with these creatures, and knowing others that have too, I think I'll stick to the idea that they are spirits. I mean, come on... a man being held down by a "mental illness" and then pushing hard and his head going through the "mental illness" and feeling how jelly-ish it was... and then it going away at the name of Jesus. Well... I don't think that fits the description of mental illness, unless I want to deny things and reject countless testimony.

I suppose I can just assume that those that practice witchcraft aren't getting any help from supernatural creatures? Yes, because it's normal for a man to stop a knife in midair. And it's normal for women to be dancing, performing a ritual, and suddenly switch to their "alternate personalities". And it's normal for those people with "mental illnesses" to be able to pick up huge, heavy boulders when having one of their fits. And I suppose one can call up a fit of mental illness by dancing, right?

Yes, and while we are denying things, lets just throw in the records of an African chief who was shot in the woods. The man who shot him claimed he didn't shoot him. He shot a dear, and when he went up to the dear, it was a man. The judge was going to condemn him... but the chief's tribe testified that he frequently changed into a dear when traveling. It was faster that way, apparently. The judge had to accept the testimony. The man said he shot a dear, and the tribe said he was a dear. I suppose we can ignore that one though, right?

I really cannot. Now, one shouldn't have a focus on such spirits. That tends to attract their attention and make a group go quite crazy. But one definitely shouldn't deny their existence. I do like that you are going back to the original on these things though. I should try that some time.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Sadanyagci,

Please forgive me if I have offended you. I was just explaining my beliefs, based upon years of study. You are free to disagree. However, I'll attempt to explain things below...

So Jesus cast a legion of "mental illnesses" into the pigs?

So these people with "mental illnesses" somehow knew that Jesus was the Christ?

So Jesus told these alternate personalities to be quiet and not say who He is? Because mental illnesses have supernatural powers, right?

A man with multiple personalities broke his chains easily, and no one could bind him?

Okay, good questions. But consider these possibilities:

The mental illness that the man who said he had many (i.e. a legion) of devils may had an infection, viral or bacterial, which caused the mental problems. Jesus sent them into the pigs.

As for the personalities or the disease saying who Jesus was, why couldn't that have been the man speaking from the knowledge of something he had heard about Jesus previously? We don't know that he wasn't in communication with others, just because he was crazy. After all, they tried to chain him. Obviously, he had some contact with others.

I wasn't insisting that the problem was multiple personalities. That was only a suggestion. Many mental diseases cause issues of extreme strength. I don't know how many people with mental illness you've known, but some are extremely strong and have to be sedated just to handle them. Anyway, we don't know what kind of "chain" it was that he broke. The word just means "bonds" and doesn't specify what type.

These are just suggestions. There are many possibilities that still fit the situation without calling upon some supernatural evil spirits.

So Jesus said that when a mental illness is cast out, it goes through dry places, seeking rest but finding none... then the mental illness says to itself (it's a smart mental illness, obviously) "let's go back home!" The mental illness goes to see its man, and seeing that he is healthy, it takes 7 mental illnesses more sick than itself and makes the final state of that man worse than the original state?

Jesus spoke to them in terms they understood. He anthropomorphized the disease, and put it in terms they could grasp, based upon their cultural perceptions. (There are a number of anthropomorphisms in Scripture, such as "wisdom" in Proverbs.) Mental illness isn't only chemical or physical issues with the brain, but also is often viral or bacterial diseases.

This is a description of a disease leaving the person, being deposited somewhere to find another host, then "deciding" (in the anthromorphic sense) to recur in the same person. Consider modern medicine. Often a person has a disease that affects them, then it goes away, then when it comes back, they are so sensitized to it, it's much worse the second time, and secondary infections of other types occur, or more symptoms occur. Do you honestly think that if Jesus explained it in those terms that anyone would have had a clue?

Where are ANY accounts of people being healed of mental illness in the New Testament? Where are there any accounts of mental illness in the ancient literature of the time? They didn't have a clue what mental illness and diseases that affected the brain were. It's reasonable to look for something of the sort in the New Testament, because there's no reason to think it wasn't any less widespread than it is today. In fact, we know they had many such diseases, because their skeletons and remains have been analyzed and evidence for such has been found.

So, if devils aren't the explanation for mental illness and diseases that affected the mental state, then where are they in Scripture?

Mind you, this is just a belief I have, an alternate explanation. Nothing I've ever seen has convinced me of anything else. I've been around LOTS of "demon possession" through the ministries that I've worked in through the years and in my time as a missionary. I still believe it was all just mental illness or disease.

If demon possession WEREN'T mental illness, then it couldn't be cured with medical attention. However, such things are cured all the time through drugs that replenish things missing in the brain, or by the removal of tumors, or through other medical help. I see no good evidence of demons anywhere.

Having personal experience with these creatures, and knowing others that have too, I think I'll stick to the idea that they are spirits. I mean, come on... a man being held down by a "mental illness" and then pushing hard and his head going through the "mental illness" and feeling how jelly-ish it was... and then it going away at the name of Jesus. Well... I don't think that fits the description of mental illness, unless I want to deny things and reject countless testimony.

As I said, I've had numerous experiences with it myself, and I think they are all mental illness.

A man "held down" by a mental illness is nothing if not normal for different types of mental illness. I'd just suggest that you study various types of mental illness and their side effects. You'd be surprised how many have the same exact description as demon possession. Now, of course, then we could ask ourselves, is this demon possession or a disease? However, in most cases, a cause can be discovered for the source of the problem, such as chemical issues or tumors or whatever, and since they can be treated and fixed (or only alleviated in some cases), it seems obvious to me that all demon-possession is likely to be mental disease of some kind or another.

Testimony is one of the worst kinds of evidence. People often mistake one thing for another, especially because of their beliefs. Subjective proof is always less valuable than objective truth. You know, lots of people said that the "laundry balls" worked to wash clothes without soap. They didn't, and were eventually pulled from the market. Lots of people used to believe that drinking "snake oil" remedies worked. Sometimes they may have had some herbal concoction that worked, but more often they were absolutely useless. Still, people believed in them. The problem is that most people are extremely credulous. They are easy to trick and hypnotize into believing just about anything.

I've seen the events behind many testimonies. My mother claimed my little brother died when he fell in the swimming pool, but that God brought him back to life. She was overwrought at the time and couldn't see straight. I was there, and watched the whole thing. He never died, although he did stop breathing, and the jumping around a friend did with him got him breathing again. I could give you many examples. I used to catch people that were "slain in the Spirit" for another ministry. They weren't slain in the Spirit. They were hypnotized by their own belief and the situation around them. Anyone that knew how could duplicate the same thing. I've studied the power of suggestion for many, many years. People will believe anything, given the opportunity.

I suppose I can just assume that those that practice witchcraft aren't getting any help from supernatural creatures? Yes, because it's normal for a man to stop a knife in midair. And it's normal for women to be dancing, performing a ritual, and suddenly switch to their "alternate personalities". And it's normal for those people with "mental illnesses" to be able to pick up huge, heavy boulders when having one of their fits. And I suppose one can call up a fit of mental illness by dancing, right?

My wife was a witch, before she became a Christian. Most witchcraft relies on suggestion and/or drugs. Is there really anything to it? I don't think so. I believe it is mental and physical in nature. Did you know that people can die simply because they think they will? The power of suggestion is incredibly powerful. Did you know that people can be healed by placebos? In some cases, placebos are as effective as drugs! Again, it's all the power of suggestion.

Yes, people can switch personalities at will, especially if they make them up, like the fake mediums that used to be exposed all the time. Witch doctors are known to have used an extensive number of drugs to bring about their magic. Information like that has led to all types of drugs in modern medicine. Zombies are believed to have been normal people that were drugged, for instance. Curses often take on a life of their own in the recipient's imagination, which can disease and kill them.

As for the claims, it's best to examine each one. Did they REALLY pick up large boulders? How do you KNOW? I had a friend swear that he had God change his tooth into gold. Turns out he just forgot the dentist installed it that way. People can be really gullible.

Yes, and while we are denying things, lets just throw in the records of an African chief who was shot in the woods. The man who shot him claimed he didn't shoot him. He shot a dear, and when he went up to the dear, it was a man. The judge was going to condemn him... but the chief's tribe testified that he frequently changed into a dear when traveling. It was faster that way, apparently. The judge had to accept the testimony. The man said he shot a dear, and the tribe said he was a dear. I suppose we can ignore that one though, right?

Power of suggestion. The people were gullible enough to believe they saw him change into a deer, when it was probably slight of hand, or misdirection. Very common among magicians. Their testimony is of little value, because we can't test it at all. I don't believe for half a second that the guy really turned into a deer.

I really cannot. Now, one shouldn't have a focus on such spirits. That tends to attract their attention and make a group go quite crazy. But one definitely shouldn't deny their existence. I do like that you are going back to the original on these things though. I should try that some time.

Please understand, I'm not demanding that my opinion/belief is correct. I'm simply offering it as an explanation.

If you were to simply exchange the words "messenger" for "angel", and "opposer" or "accuser" for "satan" and "devil", then at the very least, one will get a different picture of Scripture. Maybe you'll still see angels in Scripture and maybe you'll still believe in Satan as an individual, but one will see there is much less justification for seeing those as widespread throughout Scripture. Years ago, I decided to try reading the Bible as if I knew nothing but the ancient languages and the basic meaning of the words. It reads quite differently in many areas, and many things pop out that one doesn't always expect or understand from the English version of Scripture.

My desire is to see a version of the Bible that is true to the language as the original readers would understand it, rather than a translation that is imbued with the beliefs of the translators. It would be very, very illuminating.


John for Christ

 

[Mark C]

No offense, John; we both know we disagree on a number of issues, including evidently this one. But I know from personal experience, and study of His Word, that the model our Savior used repeatedly in Scripture is FAR more accurate than that of "modern psychology".

He knew the Truth, taught it, and acted in that knowledge.

 

[Anonymous]

No offense, John; we both know we disagree on a number of issues, including evidently this one. But I know from personal experience, and study of His Word, that the model our Savior used repeatedly in Scripture is FAR more accurate than that of "modern psychology".

He knew the Truth, taught it, and acted in that knowledge.

Hi Mark C.,

Yes, it seems highly likely we're going to run into a lot of areas that we disagree upon. However, I rather expect that almost EVERYONE will disagree with me here... That doesn't matter to me. If people don't disagree, then how would anyone ever get to the truth? We'd all be stuck in our own little versions of reality, missing the greater truth around us.

Like you, I don't believe that "modern psychology" is completely accurate. However, there are many physiological changes that can be detected in the brain, whether from tumors, brain chemicals, infections, etc. We can argue about psychology, but it would be problematic to make the claim that someone had a demon, then a physical problem is detected, corrected, and the person is fine from that point on. If demons can be cast out by medicine, then it seems questionable to me that they are really demons at all.

I'm not questioning the model of our Savior in Scripture at all. I'm offering a different interpretation than the traditional one. Both interpretations give God all the glory, and rely upon exactly the same text of Scripture. If Christ casts out a demon, or if He heals a person from epilepsy, the glory is all His.

Casting out a demon actually seems a lot easier to me than changing the brain chemistry of an individual to work correctly. All you have to do to a demon, according to beliefs, is believe and tell him to go. Removing a disease involves changing a human on a very detailed and complex level. We still can't really do it with modern medicine, but can only assist the body in doing the job.

Thank you for your comment though. I appreciate that you are cautious and concerned, and would never accept something on someone else's say so.


John for Christ

 

[steve]

if i were the enemy of our Creator i would probably try to convince his followers that i did not exist

sorry john,
i am sure that you are a well-intentioned, nice guy. but i really do not know how to express my concern about this strongly enough. i pray that none are misled

 

[Tlaloc]

I don't call it heresy, I call it modernism. Obviously they where too stupid to understand and you are enlightened. I can't see the viewpoint as much more than modern arrogance, cause now you've got Jesus flinging disease cross species for no apparent reason when he normally just eliminates it. Instead of demonic possession we have bacterial possession in which the bacteria talks to a person. But that's right, you're offering 'objective truth' because that is what your first faith claims to give you.

 

[Anonymous]

if i were the enemy of our Creator i would probably try to convince his followers that i did not exist

sorry john,
i am sure that you are a well-intentioned, nice guy. but i really do not know how to express my concern about this strongly enough. i pray that none are misled

Hi Steve,

I'm sure that you mean well also, but what you are talking about is a form of dualism: That a guy called Satan is out to get God. Obviously, he's intelligent enough in the stories to operate all of Hell and a vast organization of demons to tell us to do sinful things...yet for some reason he's not bright enough to see what anyone else can see, that God is infinitely powerful and can never be beaten. I just don't buy that nonsense.

What I'm telling you is that if you simply relied on the original languages of Scripture and read them without all the pre-suppositions that you have been taught, you would never believe that story about the guy called Satan.


John for Christ

 

[Anonymous]

I don't call it heresy, I call it modernism. Obviously they where too stupid to understand and you are enlightened. I can't see the viewpoint as much more than modern arrogance, cause now you've got Jesus flinging disease cross species for no apparent reason when he normally just eliminates it. Instead of demonic possession we have bacterial possession in which the bacteria talks to a person. But that's right, you're offering 'objective truth' because that is what your first faith claims to give you.

Hi Tlaloc,

You'd be more accurate to call it John_for_Christ-ism, because it's based solely upon a reading of Scripture, not any outside modernistic influence beyond observation and a lot of basic science that you certainly believe in as well.

Diseases often do cross species--they are called zoonoses. I have no idea why Jesus would fling a bunch of demons into the pigs either, considering it's never recorded He did anything like that with other demons. Maybe He just didn't like unclean animals being near. However, both cases are just as far-fetched or likely as one may choose to see it.

At no point did I suggest that the bacteria spoke to anyone. When Jesus addresses "Legion" it's not clear whether it He's speaking to the man or to some demon. It could be either one, and really depends upon what you believe. I believe He asked the man and the man answered.

I offered it as an alternative which I believe in. The entire belief originated with myself, and I have searched for quite awhile to find others that believe any of those things. Whether they do or don't really doesn't matter--if it is true. And I believe it is.

As for objective truth, I'm simply relating what I've discovered. You don't have to accept it or believe it. However, it's interesting that most people respond the same way as you have when any of us presents polygamy as true, yet you continue to believe in polygamy, don't you?


John for Christ

 

[steve]

well, obviously one of us is wrong and each of us is planning on it being the other guy

to me, all of your explanations notwithstanding, it just seems a little safer to believe that the enemy of my soul exists, and if in the end i find out that nobody was there, i didn't lose much.
but if i choose to follow your reasoning and ignore the possibility that he is alive and well while he works his plans....no thanks

 

[Anonymous]

well, obviously one of us is wrong and each of us is planning on it being the other guy

to me, all of your explanations notwithstanding, it just seems a little safer to believe that the enemy of my soul exists, and if in the end i find out that nobody was there, i didn't lose much.
but if i choose to follow your reasoning and ignore the possibility that he is alive and well while he works his plans....no thanks

Hi Steve,

Understandable and quite reasonable. However, what is the practical difference? Are you in any danger if you DON'T believe in a Satan? Isn't your strength in Christ, and doesn't He protect you from all enemies of your soul?

Realistically, what could you possibly do if Satan does exist? Anything other than if he didn't?


John for Christ

 

[steve]

like the saying goes "knowledge is power"
presumably "lack of knowledge is lack of power"
i believe that if i am in combat with a foe whose existence i deny i would be at quite a disadvantage

Isn't your strength in Christ, and doesn't He protect you from all enemies of your soul?

that would seem to be quite a polyanna-christianity (i do love the girl, but she is not quite my role-model)
attempting to follow the command to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves implies to me that i cannot just ignore my part of "resisting" what the enemy would attempt to snare me with.

signing off now
have a good night

 

[sadanyagci]

The man answered that his name was legion, for he was many. Many what? Parasites?

It's not like the subject of polygamy. While I applaud you searching things out, I think you're getting a little stuck on a personal theory (we've all done that), and need to reexamine it from a negative angle, rather than a positive. There are points that just don't fit at all. The demons knew Jesus was the Christ, when NO ONE knew that except His few close disciples. Most people thought He was Elijah, or John the Baptist. There were no photos, and there was no internet... and He didn't dress funny, as far as we know. So, therefore, no one would automatically recognize Him either.

When one has to make up extra-biblical excuses.. then well... 'Huston, we have a problem'. I'm not upset or attacking you... but I do think you should test these things once again.

 

[Anonymous]

like the saying goes "knowledge is power"
presumably "lack of knowledge is lack of power"

Hi Steve,

Not to be argumentative, but "lack of knowledge is lack of power" isn't logically true. One could have power from another source--strength, money, resources, etc.--and be as dumb as a brick.

i believe that if i am in combat with a foe whose existence i deny i would be at quite a disadvantage

(This all assumes your belief system, not mine.) Where does Scripture suggest that you are in combat with Satan? Isn't it Christ that is in combat with him? Given that there are billions of humans, why would Satan single you out? Why would he go after you, rather than sending one of his minions at you?

Ask yourself the converse of that question: Would you be at a disadvantage if you THINK you are in combat, though the foe you believe in is imaginary?

Isn't your strength in Christ, and doesn't He protect you from all enemies of your soul?

that would seem to be quite a polyanna-christianity (i do love the girl, but she is not quite my role-model)
attempting to follow the command to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves implies to me that i cannot just ignore my part of "resisting" what the enemy would attempt to snare me with.

I understand your point, but if you are wrong, you are wasting your time batting at shadows. Being wise as serpents and gentle as doves doesn't necessarily mean that we have to know our every enemy. It's enough to be prepared as we've been told to be prepared--having our loins girt about with truth, having on the breastplate of righteousness, our feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, and taking the shield of faith, wherewith we shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

There's literally no way we can know what attacks are coming, from whom, and from where. The best we can do is be prepared. Our faith has to be in the Lord for the details, when He gives them to us.

How that would be "Pollyanna-Christianity" I don't know. Our job is to rely on Christ for our strength, our everything. It is He that works.

Let's suppose that I'm right and you're wrong. What could you be missing out on? Whether I'm right or wrong, wouldn't it be worth looking at?


John for Christ

 

[Anonymous]

The man answered that his name was legion, for he was many. Many what? Parasites?

Hi Sadanyagci,

Answer: I don't know. Many personalities brought on by viral infection, worms, whatever. Maybe not even that, but it seems reasonable.

The answer of demons is much the same. What are demons then? Where'd they come from? How'd they get in the guy and what do they get out of it?

There's really no satisfactory answer for those questions either. The prominent belief is that demons are fallen angels, but where is that found in Scripture? It takes a whole bunch of presumption and imagination to pull that out of Scripture.

Again, I'll outline some basic evidence:

(A) The Old Testament does not discuss demons at all. It represents a larger amount of time, but they are conspicuously absent.

(B) Both the Babylonians and Assyrians had a detailed and complex demonology and angelology.

(C) The Israelites had no written demonology or angelology until their time in Babylon and Assyria. After that there were many writings about demons and angels, and extensive demonologies and angelologies were written.

(D) The words for "angels", "satan", "devil" mean in the ancient languages, respectively "messengers", "opponent", and "accuser".

(E) Neither "satan" nor "devil" are proper names. They are titles. Anyone can be a "satan" (like Peter was once) or "devil".

(F) Concerning mental illness, it is rarely if ever mentioned except for "lunatic", which is only a small part of the full spectrum of mental diseases. Why is it that we hear of all types of external diseases being healed, but mental illness is completely unmentioned?

(G) Accounts of demons often include details of symptoms that are consistent with mental diseases. Today we believe many of these to have physical causes, which are borne out by the effectiveness of physical treatment.

There's more, but that's the gist of it. Feel free to research it for yourself.

It's not like the subject of polygamy. While I applaud you searching things out, I think you're getting a little stuck on a personal theory (we've all done that), and need to reexamine it from a negative angle, rather than a positive. There are points that just don't fit at all. The demons knew Jesus was the Christ, when NO ONE knew that except His few close disciples. Most people thought He was Elijah, or John the Baptist. There were no photos, and there was no internet... and He didn't dress funny, as far as we know. So, therefore, no one would automatically recognize Him either.

How is it not like the subject of polygamy? Both ideas are unaccepted by the average Christian. Both are going to get you strange looks if you mention them to other Christians, and both are going to have other Christians rabidly trying to point out how wrong you are (this last part is quite evident from the response I received).

Now you feel, I'm sure, that polygamy is accepted by God and that "fact" is perfectly obvious in Scripture. However, others reading the SAME, EXACT words don't believe that way. The same applies to my belief about angels, demons, and the devil.

There are lots of questions about this and lots of possible theories--just like with the opposite view that these were some kind of supernatural beings called demons.

Mark 5:7 says the MAN said those things to Jesus. How did he know who Jesus was? (He didn't actually say "Christ", but "Son of the Most High God".) I don't know. There are many ways. He could have heard of and followed around Jesus previously and heard Him and figured out who He was, but felt like an abject sinner and ran away from Jesus to a country across the Sea of Galilee. He could have learned who Jesus was in a dream that God gave him so that he would be expecting Jesus when He came. Maybe he heard that they were coming from someone that went on ahead (people seemed to know where He was going to go in some cases), and figured out which one He was by the way the apostles acted around Him (with deference as one would their leader). Who knows? It's enough to know that it is a possibility that isn't a stretch of the imagination. We don't get the details of any of the Biblical accounts. We just get the highlights.

When one has to make up extra-biblical excuses.. then well... 'Huston, we have a problem'. I'm not upset or attacking you... but I do think you should test these things once again.

Your ability to read the Bible is extra-Biblical. Your understanding of the meaning of the words is extra-Biblical. Extra-Biblical doesn't mean it is wrong. We establish that many Biblical prophecies were true from historical accounts that are extra-Biblical. Not everything is in the Bible.

What exactly did you feel was extra-Biblical (besides the entire concept itself)?


John for Christ

 

[steve]

john,
i will respond some more at a later date, but i am interested in your understanding and explanation of the book of Job and what you feel really happened

 

[Tlaloc]

Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

They, being the demons, or, in your model, the talking bacteria. This passages says exactly why Jesus would do that. The fact have no idea why He would do something that is clearly explained in a passage so relevant to the study of demons makes all your posturing about studying the matter incredulous.

As to this being your own pet idea, well, its pretty much the idea of demons being spewed by the majority of academia today, its not like most of us here aren't as familiar with the idea that demons=mental illness as we are with the ideas miraculous healing is just the power of positive thinking (humanities own power) and the idea that the resurrection was staged. Its the same philosophy that backs this whole set of ideas. I get the strong impression you're testing the water to see how many more ideas part and parcel to humanism and modernism you can slip in. But of course, like you say,live and let live, nothing is worth being passionate about right?

 

[Anonymous]

john,
i will respond some more at a later date, but i am interested in your understanding and explanation of the book of Job and what you feel really happened

Hi Steve,

Thank you for the way you commented. We can have a calm, rational discussion whether we ever come to see eye to eye. At least we will learn something one way or another...

I know I keep saying this, but I appreciate your question. It indicates to me that you are honestly considering this and looking for the possible flaws. (I also realize this doesn't mean in any way that you are accepting of any part of this view.)

I considered the Book of Job--and, in fact, every single reference concerning demons--when I was studying this subject. Here's my take on the Book of Job:

My presumption is that all Biblical accounts are non-supernatural unless the supernatural is specifically mentioned. Why? Because that is the norm, the default setting of life and understanding of the written and spoken word.

We first come upon "satan" in Job 1:6, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." The common interpretation is that these are is angels in Heaven and Satan came in with them.

There is no direct explanation of "sons of God" in Scripture. Many believe these were angels. I cannot find any evidence for that, nor that these are spiritual beings of any kind. I believe these were, instead, godly men, probably priests or prophets in this case, from the description here. There are plenty of other cases of people presenting themselves before the Lord while here on Earth, so there's no reason to assume this was in Heaven.

So, these prophets or priests were doing their ministrations before the Lord, and an unnamed "opponent"--who was probably one of them, a godly man like the rest--came in with them. In this case, "opponent" is simply what he was called for the purposes of the Biblical narrative in the book of Job, and because he took the position of opposing Job in the story. He was probably unnamed so that people reading Scripture wouldn't dislike him for the position he took, since he was actually a righteous man. It wasn't unrighteous at all, but that he was a man that sincerely wanted to know why God thought Job was so special since Job was rich and had everything. Why would Job have to really fear God? God then proceeded to test Job to prove His point to the priest. The priest's motivation may have been good or bad, we don't know. Scripture doesn't reveal that.

God is also called a "satan" in Scripture: "And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way as a satan against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him." (Numbers 22:22) Other passages indicate that people were sometimes "satans" against other people--in other words, they opposed them. The word "satan" doesn't imply anything bad, nor is it a proper name.

So the opponent and the Lord are speaking, and the opponent suggests that the Lord test Job: "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face." (Job 1:11) So God says, "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand." (Job 1:12) However, this may not be a correct translation, but would be based upon the translator's bias toward the "Satan" idea. Instead, the Hebrew only says, "Look! All that hand. Limited towards not send hand."

Hebrew is a simple language, and the object is not always known. In this case, we see that the opponent suggested that GOD PUT FORTH HIS HAND. So it would be rational to believe that the above should be translated, "Look! I'm putting forth my hand, but towards Job himself I'll not put forth my hand."

Even if this is not the best translation, it can also mean that God agreed to the opponent's request, that it was in the opponent's "hand" in the sense that his challenge to God to afflict Job would be carried out, not that the opponent did it.

In the following disasters that occurred, there isn't the slightest suggestion that the opponent had anything to do with it. In fact, we have fire of God coming down from Heaven and great winds, both of which are the realm of God. Even supposing a Satan, where does Scripture indicate he has that kind of power?

Disaster happens to Job, but Job does not curse God or sin.

Next we have a repeat where the priests are presenting themselves before God again.

"And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." (Job 2:2-3)

The opponent priest was traveling around the land (for the same word as "earth" can mean a land), and God asks him if he has seen anyone as "complete and straight" as Job (literal interpretation of "perfect and upright").

So the opponent answers God and says, "Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face." (Job 2:4-5) Again, the opponent is suggesting that GOD put forth HIS hand, suggesting that God was the one that did it previously as well. So God says, "Look! I'll put forth My hand, but will save his life."

Job 2:7 in English makes it look like Satan afflicted Job. However, remember that Hebrew had no punctuation. The sentence could have ended after the opponent left and then GOD afflicted Job with boils. Putting these into one sentence was again the choice of the translators.

That is the end of the opponent in the Book of Job. He isn't mentioned anywhere else. Beyond this point, the issue is between Job and God, with Job's comforters joining in to bug Job for most of the rest of the book. The final conclusion is God's, that even Job is not fully righteous, especially compared to God. God asks Job why he thinks he can question God's judgment (Job 40:8, cf. 40:2), which really suggests that all these things were done by the Lord, not by an opponent. God never even "settles the bet" (i.e. discusses how Job proved righteous with "Satan" or "satan") with the opponent, showing that the opponent is really a bit character in this account...

That's what I believe. All the other accounts of Scripture including "satan" are similar, involving people that were in opposition, but weren't all the same Satan.

I hope that fully answers your question. Please let me know if you have any further questions or comments. I would like to know if there actually are any gaping holes in my belief.


John for Christ

 

[Anonymous]

Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

They, being the demons, or, in your model, the talking bacteria. This passages says exactly why Jesus would do that. The fact have no idea why He would do something that is clearly explained in a passage so relevant to the study of demons makes all your posturing about studying the matter incredulous.

And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep. And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them. Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked." (Luke 8:31-33)

I'm still learning Greek, so I'm not positive, but the wording of the significant portions of the passage in question, from the Greek, could also be translated: "And he besought him that He would not command them to go out into the deep" and "...he besought him that He would suffer them to enter into them".

Regardless, this could be referring to the man speaking as a plural, or to the bacteria/worms/whatever communicating their desire (for God knows the feelings of every creature, I would assume), or it could be that the copyists "fixed" it like they fixed so many other things they thought were errors in the originals (though I wouldn't rely upon that, unless there were ancient manuscripts that would support that view). The point is that there are numerous possibilities that do not require a stretch of the imagination.

But back to the passage...the "deep" or the "abyss" is also used of the deep parts of the sea or lakes, where the pigs in the next verse happened to run. In their fear, they ended up in the abyss anyway.

As to this being your own pet idea, well, its pretty much the idea of demons being spewed by the majority of academia today, its not like most of us here aren't as familiar with the idea that demons=mental illness as we are with the ideas miraculous healing is just the power of positive thinking (humanities own power) and the idea that the resurrection was staged. Its the same philosophy that backs this whole set of ideas. I get the strong impression you're testing the water to see how many more ideas part and parcel to humanism and modernism you can slip in. But of course, like you say,live and let live, nothing is worth being passionate about right?

Because it is from my own research does not mean that others haven't discovered it independently.

The idea of demons being mental disease or drugs among various tribes is fairly common. I've heard of that, but never in relation to the "demons" of Scripture.

As for how I came up with my viewpoint, it wasn't derived from "academia" at all, but was built upon the evidence which I presented in another message.

I'm just curious how you explain that there are no demons in the Old Testament, which spans at least 4000 years, but in the New Testament, which spans only around 74 years at most there are numerous mentions of "demons". Interesting, isn't it? What's your explanation?

It's also quite interesting that the Jews had no traditions or writings concerning demons or angels until AFTER Israel's time in Assyria and Babylon. This happened during the intertestamental period and was a common belief by the time of Christ, but wasn't previously. (Neither do the Samaritans, who developed their religion, which has the same Torah as Israel's, after the Northern Kingdom of Israel was taken out of the land, but before the Southern Kingdom of Judah was taken to Babylon. This also is significant evidence.)

(It's interesting about Satan as well. There are only 23 mentions of the word "satan" in the Old Testament. Only 12 of those are considered to be "Satan". Only one of those 12 other than 9 mentions in two chapters of Job is before Israel was taken to Assyria and Babylon. This is scarce mention in a period of 4000 yeas of a being that is supposed to be the arch-enemy of God.)

Suggesting that demons are or were mental diseases doesn't begin to suggest that the miracles did not happen. As I stated before, it's more amazing that He cured a complex mental disease, than it would be to cast out a demon. In either case, it's still an inexplicable miracle and gives glory to God!

Another reason that argument is faulty is because Jesus cured physical ailments, such as leprosy, blindness, lameness, etc., yet you don't think twice about how miraculous that is, even though curing mental illness is equally as miraculous, as both involve straightening a messed-up body. So, claiming that Jesus casting out demons is okay to believe, but Jesus healing mental disease leads to humanism and modernism is a logical and factual fallacy.

I want to thank you for pushing me, because it has caused me to look even deeper into the subject, which has revealed even more strong evidence that demons do not really exist. Thank you for your help, even if you did not intend it.


John for Christ

 

[johnmark29020]

I can tell you that demons and ghost are real. I have been tormented by them for years. Held down,made to be afraid, told that I was nothing. These things will mess with you and yor perspective inorder to control you. I spent many years under there influence and it was bad. The worst thing wasnt the demons. It was the diblief of others. Noone would help me,and most people thought I was crazy. Christains would tell me that I was letting my imaginenation run away with me.At the same time they would tell me about this all powerful G=D and his son. I couldnt believe that they wanted me to believe in somthing like G-D and jesus,but would tell me I wasnt being haunted. I thought they were full of it. However after my divorce I went to church to see if this G-D would send the woman I loved back to me. If I could make him happy. Maybe he would help me. God never sent her back. Instead he became my bst friend. Showing me many wonders including the glory cloud and heaven it self. One night as I laid on my mothers couch the demon/ghost came on me. Like so many time before I was afraid and unable to speak or move. However somthing different happened this time. This time I was able to call out for jesus in my head. I screamed for him like a small child screams for his parenets in the middle of the night after a bad dream. Shortly latter I felt like I was being told to turn over and face it. I had never done that before that night. When I tried I found that the demons wasnt just standing behind me,but he was holding me there. On my 2nd or 3rd attempt . I felt it lose the grip it had on me. I rolled over shouting somthing in touges. I wasnt even thnking about saying anything to the demon so hearing myself shout out in an unkown touge really surprised me. The demon has returned since then but he no longer rules my lfe. The position on life commander is G-Ds and I am glad for him. Whats my point, When somone says I am being haunted.Tell them you believe them. Then seek G-D and see if you can help and what must you do. Demonws /ghost are real and they are pissed. They never ork alone and they always work under the autority give to them. Good news We have more autority than they do. We just have to come together and use it. never try to take on a demon by yourself. Make sure you have G-Ds permission and the prayers of the fellowship. We are all in the together. Love you all john