I think you have a soul tie to the Charismatic Movement. You know you have a soul tie when you know you should change, but you won’t.
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Mark, the long and short of it...
- Thread starter Asforme&myhouse
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IMO thats the wrong question. A better question would be who said it was closed and why did they think that.
FWIW, I know of no one today that I’d add to the canon. I do know of several documents pre and post Christ that makes me think, hmmmmm. Some of which are quoted by the writers of the canon, and a list of them that are testified to by the canon. I wonder why they’re not included in the canon. Nobody seems to know, and those that pretend to know have the lamest excuses.
FWIW, I know of no one today that I’d add to the canon. I do know of several documents pre and post Christ that makes me think, hmmmmm. Some of which are quoted by the writers of the canon, and a list of them that are testified to by the canon. I wonder why they’re not included in the canon. Nobody seems to know, and those that pretend to know have the lamest excuses.
The ones that are in there, I know for sure are God’s Word, I’m going to work with those and use the others as important references if needed, unless they contradict the 66
Why should I change? Because someone faked using a gift? I don't know if you know this or not but the pews are full of fakes and hypocrites. If I took your approach I wouldn't go back to Church at all. That is the kind of reasoning that killed Christ. Its religion. If it doesn't look like what I know or what I am comfortable with, destroy it. I mean this thread is started because of a statement about taking out the words of Christ because they didn't fit your doctrine. Your reasoning just doesn't make sense and you try to apply it to everyone else but yourself.
Don't be afraid to roll up your sleeves next to someone in process. People don't get saved and immediately have a walk like Paul and Silas. People in the Charismatic movement see others walking in signs and they want to do it too so they fake it. Just like people in dry Churches have all their issues but they set there piously and fake it.
The thing is Jesus constantly rebuked the religious crowd and what worries me about it is that not one of them was converted. Religion has sent more people to hell than anything. And a side note that religious spirit was the same one that criticized all of the miracles. They could quote scripture and new the law better than anyone but they were threatened by someone walking in power. They seemed to be righteous but they weren't.
You sound just like the Independent Baptist I came out of or a John McArthur type. Real quick to want to judge every other part of the body but the part they are responsible for is running rampant in sin. Are you a Calvinist? Reason I ask is this seems like Calvinist fruit?
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Great view. This can be attributed to any discussion that happens on BF when it comes to questioning the normal religious narrative.
@Asforme&myhouse, every road has two ditches.
I am totally with you in avoiding the excess of the Charismaniacs, but I will not join you in the ditch on the opposite side of the road in an attempt to get as far away from them as possible. Redefine power in any way that you want, you position is still relatively powerless.
Here’s what life looks like in real-time for me:
One of my wives, Karin, has much knee damage from old accidents. A couple of years ago she was standing on flimsy chair changing a lightbulb for a neighbor and the chair broke. She fell on her knee and has been limping ever since. Just as it starts getting better, something happens and she re-injures it. Lately the pain has gotten worse and she hasn’t been able to sleep at night. That was before a neighbor sprayed her with cheap perfume because “I thought you would like the scent!” Karin has horrible asthma and that could have been a life-ending event. She dropped onto her knees as if she had been pole-axed and really messed them up.
Karin doesn’t do pain drugs, but I had to convince her to try something in order to be able to sleep at night. Morphine drops were working at night, but she couldn’t take them during the day because of how spaced-out they made her. In the meantime the dr told her that her knees were deteriorating and if they couldn’t turn it around holistically surgery was going to be required. The continual pain was even causing her to throw up food, so nutrition wasn’t going to help.
So with her headed towards becoming an invalid, we were facing a situation in which she was needed to minister to a couple of older people (she is 66) and I was getting the realization that the only way forward was that she receive healing. No other plan was really working for us.
Now I have long believed in healing, but haven’t personally been involved with much success. I have believed that we, as a family, will be walking in greater spiritual authority in the future and that healing will become commonplace for us, but, for whatever reason, we were not yet in the place where YHWH has chosen to trust us with it. Including lack of virtue. (see my previous post)
Well, this past Sunday things were coming to a head and I started getting the feeling that the underlying problem might be more of a more spiritual nature. I mean, she had 100% physical reasons for being decreasingly ambulatory, but I was feeling hints in my spirit that the enemy was taking advantage of the natural and attempting to destroy her ability to do the ministry that I believe that she is called to do.
So in a conference call in our family fellowship (I am on the road, as usual) I started telling her to ask YHWH what this might be attached to. The upshot was that she needed to forgive herself for something that she had become involved in as a young person.
Can Christians have demons? I don’t care whether they are on the outside hiding under your left buttcheek or on the inside of your esophagus, they will stand on whatever ground you give them and attack you from that position. Evidently there were spirits that had attached to that unforgiveness and attacking her from that position.
The minute that she expressed her forgiveness, the pain disappeared. So much so that I had to chide her for jumping up and down in her exuberance yesterday. I had to tell that we have no assurance that her knees are healed, so it’s best not to do anything to further damage them. In fact, her kneecap has not returned to its allotted position, so it’s looks to be simply pain relief at this point. She hasn’t thrown up since Sunday am, either.
A word came from YHWH yesterday about the fact that He has given us dominion over this earth and that as her owner I should of course be calling things into being in her body. So I , over the phone, proceeded to command asthma from her. An hour later the cheap perfume neighbor came over stinking heavily and she had nary a cough. That is totally miraculous, as she normally starts coughing and reacting when someone is smoking on the next property over.
So you can have your well thought out theology that denies the power that I have chosen to live in.
It is also available to you if you change your mind. YHWH is a gentleman, He won’t force it on you.
I am totally with you in avoiding the excess of the Charismaniacs, but I will not join you in the ditch on the opposite side of the road in an attempt to get as far away from them as possible. Redefine power in any way that you want, you position is still relatively powerless.
Here’s what life looks like in real-time for me:
One of my wives, Karin, has much knee damage from old accidents. A couple of years ago she was standing on flimsy chair changing a lightbulb for a neighbor and the chair broke. She fell on her knee and has been limping ever since. Just as it starts getting better, something happens and she re-injures it. Lately the pain has gotten worse and she hasn’t been able to sleep at night. That was before a neighbor sprayed her with cheap perfume because “I thought you would like the scent!” Karin has horrible asthma and that could have been a life-ending event. She dropped onto her knees as if she had been pole-axed and really messed them up.
Karin doesn’t do pain drugs, but I had to convince her to try something in order to be able to sleep at night. Morphine drops were working at night, but she couldn’t take them during the day because of how spaced-out they made her. In the meantime the dr told her that her knees were deteriorating and if they couldn’t turn it around holistically surgery was going to be required. The continual pain was even causing her to throw up food, so nutrition wasn’t going to help.
So with her headed towards becoming an invalid, we were facing a situation in which she was needed to minister to a couple of older people (she is 66) and I was getting the realization that the only way forward was that she receive healing. No other plan was really working for us.
Now I have long believed in healing, but haven’t personally been involved with much success. I have believed that we, as a family, will be walking in greater spiritual authority in the future and that healing will become commonplace for us, but, for whatever reason, we were not yet in the place where YHWH has chosen to trust us with it. Including lack of virtue. (see my previous post)
Well, this past Sunday things were coming to a head and I started getting the feeling that the underlying problem might be more of a more spiritual nature. I mean, she had 100% physical reasons for being decreasingly ambulatory, but I was feeling hints in my spirit that the enemy was taking advantage of the natural and attempting to destroy her ability to do the ministry that I believe that she is called to do.
So in a conference call in our family fellowship (I am on the road, as usual) I started telling her to ask YHWH what this might be attached to. The upshot was that she needed to forgive herself for something that she had become involved in as a young person.
Can Christians have demons? I don’t care whether they are on the outside hiding under your left buttcheek or on the inside of your esophagus, they will stand on whatever ground you give them and attack you from that position. Evidently there were spirits that had attached to that unforgiveness and attacking her from that position.
The minute that she expressed her forgiveness, the pain disappeared. So much so that I had to chide her for jumping up and down in her exuberance yesterday. I had to tell that we have no assurance that her knees are healed, so it’s best not to do anything to further damage them. In fact, her kneecap has not returned to its allotted position, so it’s looks to be simply pain relief at this point. She hasn’t thrown up since Sunday am, either.
A word came from YHWH yesterday about the fact that He has given us dominion over this earth and that as her owner I should of course be calling things into being in her body. So I , over the phone, proceeded to command asthma from her. An hour later the cheap perfume neighbor came over stinking heavily and she had nary a cough. That is totally miraculous, as she normally starts coughing and reacting when someone is smoking on the next property over.
So you can have your well thought out theology that denies the power that I have chosen to live in.
It is also available to you if you change your mind. YHWH is a gentleman, He won’t force it on you.
I hate to be Captain Obvious here, but everybody understands that when John in Revelation says "whoever adds or takes away" from "the prophecy of this book" (or "the book of this prophecy") he's talking about his Revelation, right? Not the "66 books"? That there is no internal reference within the 66 that says which individual texts are infallible, and if anything what we do have acknowledges the validity of other writings that some dead white guys didn't see fit to include in the 66?
We each make a decision on our own re how we can claim to "know" what the right answer is (you can't know this answer, you can only choose to believe, if the words "know" and "believe" are to have any useful meaning), and that's largely a matter of trusting someone else to tell you what to believe the right answer is. Either that or doing the work necessary to rely on your own scholarship to give you a well-founded opinion on the matter (which is what I believe I see @Verifyveritas76 doing).
The debate over the "infallibiilty" of the "canon" is a red herring. Spend as much time as you will on it, but ultimately our Life is in the Spirit, and he who has not the Spirit of Christ is none of His. They will know we are His disciples by our love for one another, not by our conformity to creeds and the shibboleths of tradition....
Not meant as an argument, but I would to add there comes a point in our faith that we stop believing that God is God and we know that God is God, as for the rest we should all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. My relationship with Him is mine and nobody else is going to profit from it (except my family indirectly and on a limited basis). Even when our testimony inspires others and the example we set a Biblical example, its still of no benefit to others if they don't have their own relationship with Yeshua. Its all about the relationship man.
Aaaaand, while I was typing that out, steve added his testimony to the 'debate'. I have had similar experiences, as I alluded to above, albeit more along the line of the prophetic than healing, but in any event not-explainable-in-materialistic-terms activity. If I share those stories, it tends to be in in person.
I'll say this: I think tying healing and prophecy to some grand master plan re "signs and wonders" and "Apostolic (big-A, 12-only) authority" and "the formation of the 'canon'" is a mistake. I don't claim special authority or capital-letter anything, but I have seen God do some crazy things in the moment as I and the people I was fellowshiping with at the time sought Him with our whole hearts. If someone wants to say we were delusional, then have at it; that's between you and your ultimate Judge.
FWIW, I'll share that two books by Jack Deere were influential for me back in the 90s: Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, and Surprised by the Voice of God. He's a D.Th. who was an OT professor at DTS (I just had to do that...) who wrote those books to explain what changed for him. If anyone's reading this thread that is undecided and honestly looking for information on the subject, I'd commend those two books to you.
I'll say this: I think tying healing and prophecy to some grand master plan re "signs and wonders" and "Apostolic (big-A, 12-only) authority" and "the formation of the 'canon'" is a mistake. I don't claim special authority or capital-letter anything, but I have seen God do some crazy things in the moment as I and the people I was fellowshiping with at the time sought Him with our whole hearts. If someone wants to say we were delusional, then have at it; that's between you and your ultimate Judge.
FWIW, I'll share that two books by Jack Deere were influential for me back in the 90s: Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, and Surprised by the Voice of God. He's a D.Th. who was an OT professor at DTS (I just had to do that...) who wrote those books to explain what changed for him. If anyone's reading this thread that is undecided and honestly looking for information on the subject, I'd commend those two books to you.
Not taken as one! I agree 100%. "For I know Whom I have believed..." captures the sense of that, I think.
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Thank you for sharing this and without a doubt I believe this to be real and an expression of love from our Father. Whether it is healing forever or one just to ease pain for a little while, I still believe it. And offer my prayers to your family's prayers for Karin's healing.
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For all the Thomas's out there.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/boy-thrown-off-balcony-mall-100135952.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/boy-thrown-off-balcony-mall-100135952.html
Completely different topic and one that probably deserves it's own thread. You know from our past encounters that this is an issue I am extremely suspicious of but I am willing to talk about it.
The simple fact is that we are never going to resolve this divide, and maybe we shouldn't. It's possible that we need stubborn luddites reflexively defending the text so that the crazy hippies don't turn their love fests in to bacchanals. The truth is that the separation between all the levels Pentecostalism and the rest of us is very deep ajd ideological. The two sides just see God differently and so experience Him and His Word differently. The Pentecostals see God as to be experienced. They seek to know Him and further a relationship. He has opened Himself to them in their view and wants them to interact with Him intimately. I think this view lends itself more to Pentecostalism but isn't exclusive to it.
The other side sees God as a Lord to be obeyed first and as our obedience deepens so will our intimacy with our God. This view doesn't require a belief in dispensationalism (I myself believe all the gifts are still in effect although greatly misunderstood) but this belief is required to be a dispensationalist.
Let me say a word in defense of my fellow Pentecostal apostates. We have seen a lot of energy, hoopla, hysteria, shockingly short lived miracles, insane cackling, gut punches, forehead strikes and outright wailing and shrieking, and a cacophany of "tongues" shouted out at the same time and all played out in an atmosphere that does not in anyway comport with Paul's instructions on how the assembly is supposed to function. And just to put a little cherry on this scepticism sundae, it never seemed to bear any fruit. The same people seem to rush from church to church looking for the annointing or trying to get in on the ground floor of the next revival. If we could just get to Brownsville ot Toronto God would bless us because there was a man there with the annointing, sometimes it was just to give people gold fillings (not kidding) but at least he had an annointing and we could experience revival! I don't know how many times I've seen an altar full of passed out women with one or two men interspersed here and there, and then seen these women get up and address the assembly. And this is a huge undelying problem in the broader movement, it is largely fueled by women looking to some spectacular emotional high delivered by some man who is not their husband. I know I am bringing a lot of my own baggage to this mini rant but my Pentecostal upbringing was powerless to affect change in my life and when I needed it most it turned out to be the biggest weapon wielded against me. I've seen lots of "powerful" moments and extraordinary "miracles" but the true power, the power to change myself and my surroundings, was not present.
The other side sees God as a Lord to be obeyed first and as our obedience deepens so will our intimacy with our God. This view doesn't require a belief in dispensationalism (I myself believe all the gifts are still in effect although greatly misunderstood) but this belief is required to be a dispensationalist.
Let me say a word in defense of my fellow Pentecostal apostates. We have seen a lot of energy, hoopla, hysteria, shockingly short lived miracles, insane cackling, gut punches, forehead strikes and outright wailing and shrieking, and a cacophany of "tongues" shouted out at the same time and all played out in an atmosphere that does not in anyway comport with Paul's instructions on how the assembly is supposed to function. And just to put a little cherry on this scepticism sundae, it never seemed to bear any fruit. The same people seem to rush from church to church looking for the annointing or trying to get in on the ground floor of the next revival. If we could just get to Brownsville ot Toronto God would bless us because there was a man there with the annointing, sometimes it was just to give people gold fillings (not kidding) but at least he had an annointing and we could experience revival! I don't know how many times I've seen an altar full of passed out women with one or two men interspersed here and there, and then seen these women get up and address the assembly. And this is a huge undelying problem in the broader movement, it is largely fueled by women looking to some spectacular emotional high delivered by some man who is not their husband. I know I am bringing a lot of my own baggage to this mini rant but my Pentecostal upbringing was powerless to affect change in my life and when I needed it most it turned out to be the biggest weapon wielded against me. I've seen lots of "powerful" moments and extraordinary "miracles" but the true power, the power to change myself and my surroundings, was not present.
Nicely done.
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Your not the first person to be hurt by the church. Man made religion has done more harm than good. Isn't it interesting that the Son of God didn't fight to remove Judas, He just accepting his reality and dealt with it, i think to teach us a lesson, evil is everywhere, but God abounds more.
I've experienced the same encounters with the charismatic avenue you describe, but yet have decided to come above it because i learned that God was there. I experienced His presents in the midst of the 'hippy love feast' but realized that was the fleshly side of a move of God and look beyond. Glad I did because it's where I am now and I consider myself blessed.
Maybe someday you can realize some of us crazy hippies are different than the other crazy hippies and do care about Truth.
I hate to be captain obvious but "66"? What an interesting number. Was it me, I don't think I'd have broken apart Ezra-Nehemiah and left it at 65.
I don't wonder, I know they are. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that someone who lacks miracles in their life has not heard the true Gospel.
That's weird, it didn't used to be this way but now that you say it, it does seem like seeker friendly churches have become the majority in the last 10 to 15 years.
In some circles yes. In others no. But of those big men who are 'on stages' and running churches and collecting cults of personality I'm not surprised it is 100% false.
You said..."Miracles are no longer being done by God to bear witness to specific men."
That passage speaks of what had occurred to them in their past, it made no mention of that ceasing, of it no longer being the case in the future.
What is a soul tie?