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Live by the sword?

If they can steal this election they can steal all future elections. Any future election will be mere pagentry and false choices. More Bush v Gore's where they pretent to be opposed but are actually on the same team. That's been the MO for a long time now, Trump was an anomaly and one that will not be allowed to happen ever again.

There is ZERO cause to think otherwise.
 
If they can steal this election they can steal all future elections. Any future election will be mere pagentry and false choices. More Bush v Gore's where they pretent to be opposed but are actually on the same team. That's been the MO for a long time now, Trump was an anomaly and one that will not be allowed to happen ever again.

There is ZERO cause to think otherwise.
Perhaps all elections have been pageantry and false choices then.

Why would Trump figure out some magic formula that all others were never privy to? He's the one exception, and can only be the one exception?
 
Trump imho is just controlled opposition. People don't suspect him of being a "bad guy" when he is pointing out our "enemies". Planned parenthood got more funding under Trump then Obama, and the excuses people would make for him they wouldn't have even thought of with a dem president!

I doubt anyone can really point to a significant lasting change. But I hear a lot of "He did what he could."

The media raged...... Trump talked a good talk, but he is a liar, and I don't believe he would have lived without playing their game.
 
Perhaps all elections have been pageantry and false choices then.

Why would Trump figure out some magic formula that all others were never privy to? He's the one exception, and can only be the one exception?

That's missing the point. They stole THIS election. If we defeat that steal we retain some semblance of a Republic. If we don't then there is no Republic left. We can't allow them to brazenly steal the election. It sets a practice and precedent while allowing them the power to dictate all future elections.

Maybe Trump is controlled opposition. But he pretty clearly has the will of the people behind him. Biden does not. Biden is the bought and paid for lackey of those who wish to sell us down the river.
 
Trump imho is just controlled opposition. People don't suspect him of being a "bad guy" when he is pointing out our "enemies". Planned parenthood got more funding under Trump then Obama, and the excuses people would make for him they wouldn't have even thought of with a dem president!

I doubt anyone can really point to a significant lasting change. But I hear a lot of "He did what he could."

The media raged...... Trump talked a good talk, but he is a liar, and I don't believe he would have lived without playing their game.
Looks like your knife isn't just sharpened for those poor lambs.

Looks like you also like to wield your instruments toward sacred cows :rolleyes:
 
But....lets get this thread back on track.

Post all election talk in the Presidential Politics thread, please.:D
 
This thread is to discuss Christian pacifism vs. Christian militarism.

Let's get it back on track
 
This sad recent event is very informative to ponder when considering the intersection of self-defence and Christianity.
Texas pastor killed WITH OWN GUN after confronting fugitive in church bathroom

Basic summary of events:
  • Man being chased by police on Saturday night, escaped from the police and sought refuge in a church, hiding in the church bathroom
  • Pastor discovered him in the bathroom Sunday morning, and contronted him with a gun.
  • Fugitive disarmed the pastor and shot him with his own gun. Stole pastor's car and drove off.
  • Finally captured by police and charged with murder (in addition to whatever it was they were chasing him for in the first place, presumably far more minor).
Obviously, there are times when carrying a gun in church has positive consequences - just a year ago a terrorist was shot dead in Texas by multiple armed members of a congregation, preventing a mass shooting. However, the situation described here is actually more common for an individual to encounter. And it illustrates the common problem where bringing a gun into a situation can actually make it a lot worse.

Consider it from the fugitive's perspective. He's running from the cops, and seeks a safe place of refuge. He chooses a church. Largely this would have been for practical reasons - it's empty at night, houses have people. However, there is likely a religious undercurrent to that decision also - it is very deeply historic for people to flee to churches or temples for refuge when in trouble. When Solomon sought both Adonijah and Joab, both independently fled to the temple and grasped the horns of the altar. Augustine recounts that throughout history in time of defeat in war, the people seek refuge in their temples and churches - and when the barbarians invaded Rome, the Christians and even non-Christians took refuge in the churches (and were spared death, because the barbarians also feared God). We each individually have experienced churches as places of quiet reflection and prayer. Somewhere in this man's subconscious, or even conscious mind, he likely saw the church as a safe place to flee.

In his distress, whether he knew it or not, he was running to God.

Now, had the pastor when he discovered him not been armed at all (or not appeared armed), he would not have appeared a serious threat to the man. In the worst-case scenario, he might have been beaten up as the man escaped, and had his car stolen. However, there is also a possibility that he may have been able to speak to this man, to lead him to the God that he was possibly, at some level, seeking.

But by presenting a gun, he instantly (in the fugitive's mind) changed this place of safety that he had fled to into a place of danger, equal danger to that which he had fled. And the fugitive reacted predictably - when confronted with a threat to your life, a logical man would fight back with equivalent or greater force. The fugitive was no doubt more experienced in violence than the pastor, and readily disarmed and killed him. Then, realising his situation was now many times worse than it had ever been before, fled again.

Why did the pastor present a gun? Did he actually intend to use it? Would he seriously have shot a man for simply hiding in the bathroom? Of course not. He would have shot him only if the man presented a serious threat to his life - which means he would have had no actual plan to pull the trigger in the short term unless and until the man became extremely violent - and where would that line lie anyway? What pastor wants to shoot an unarmed man in a church? Clearly the line would be a long way away. That made the gun an empty threat, perceived completely differently by each party.

From the perspective of the pastor, the gun was intended to be an encouragement to not be violent, because there was a threat of consequences if the situation became violent, but he probably never intended or expected to actually use it.

But from the perspective of the fugitive, the gun was an immediate danger to his life, requiring an immediate violent response.


The consequence would be that, acting from these two completely opposite perspectives, the fugitive would act immediately with extreme violence, which the pastor was unprepared for and hesitant about responding to and would have taken at least several seconds to re-assess the situation as one which now required the actual use of the gun. So the pastor would have probably been disarmed before he even finished processing the change in circumstances.

The fact that the pastor was killed with his own gun indicates that the fugitive was likely unarmed - and that the pastor would probably not have died had he not given the man a gun.

There were three main possible outcomes to this situation:
  • Fugitive is welcomed and helped in some way by the pastor, given breakfast and some sort of scriptural advice & prayer, before he either flees (to be captured later) or maybe even turns himself in (depending on the level of action of the Holy Spirit). Goes to prison for a short amount of time but is moving closer to God.
  • Fugitive beats up the pastor and flees without a conversation, still sees the church as somewhere "safe".
  • Fugitive feels his life is in danger and murders the pastor. Pastor is dead, fugitive's view of the church being "safe" is shattered, and he goes to prison for life.
With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that the pastor caused the last outcome to occur.

Exactly as Jesus warned: "for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matthew 26:52

This thread is mostly about the larger question of organised armed resistance against oppressive government. However, this is an everyday question also. This situation is an example of how everyday situations can be made considerably worse by introducing weaponry, both from a practical and spiritual perspective.

Edit: Incidentally, this is actually the logic behind the tradition of having police unarmed (but with access to weapons only when needed) in many countries. If the police appear less threatening than many situations they are involved in also do not spiral into higher levels of violence.
 
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Thank you for the analysis here. Having had confrontations with people armed with weapons of deadly force, including guns, I know exactly what you are referring to and agree with your comments.

My only point ot difference would be regarding your comment below as it is never the fault of another person when someone sins.
With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that the pastor caused the last outcome to occur.
It's always the fault of the individual who sins for choosing to sin, never the other person. Blameshifting is itself, a sinful response that began with Adam and has continued to the present. The man would be alive if he didn't respond wrongly.

Appreciate your wisdom @FollowingHim.
 
it is never the fault of another person when someone sins
I agree, sorry that it came across that way. What I meant by:
With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that the pastor caused the last outcome to occur.
Is simply that the pastor's presenting of a firearm did, ultimately, lead to his death. That is not to blame the pastor for his own death, certainly not. It is absolutely the fault of the sinner.

Nevertheless, from an unemotive look at cause and effect, the pastor did unintentionally strongly contribute to the circumstances that led to his death. Had he not brought a gun, he wouldn't have been shot by it. And any one of us could equally make the same mistake in similar circumstances. As even those of us without access to firearms could easily provide a criminal with a different weapon that they believed they had provided for their own protection, this applies to everybody. And since any of us could make the same mistake, it is better that we learn from the mistake of another and don't learn it the hard way ourselves.

The point of this thread is to learn what we are to do in our own lives, and I am looking at it solely from that perspective. Not shifting blame for a man's death.

I have many more musings on this issue but have written enough already. It's a very interesting case to ponder carefully.
 
Thinking further about the value or lack thereof of a gun as a deterrent to violence made me remember this classic clip from Yes Prime Minister, a 1986 British political comedy that was extremely deep in its thinking. In this episode the new Prime Minister and a military advisor are discussing whether nuclear deterrence actually worked to deter the USSR from invading Europe.
They are trying to work out what the "last resort" would be at which point the PM would actually push the button and authorise a nuclear strike on the USSR. After a very truthful but hilarious discussion, the PM realises that he really wouldn't actually press the button in any conceivable scenario, because he'd never actually be certain that it was the last resort.

Later in the episode the PM is explaining his decision to cancel Trident to his top civil servant, as follows:
Civil Servant: "It's a deterrent"
PM: "It's a bluff, I probably wouldn't use it."
CS: "Yes, but they don't know that you probably wouldn't use it."
PM: "They probably do."
CS: "Yes they probably know that you probably wouldn't but they can't certainly know."
PM: "They probably certainly know that I probably wouldn't"
... and so forth

The point being that the PM knows he wouldn't use the nuclear bomb, AND the Soviets also know that he wouldn't use it, so it's no deterrence at all.

I see some strong parallels between this and the smaller-scale case of a good man with a gun that he doesn't really want to use except as a "last resort" - and that his opponent probably also knows he doesn't really want to use. Except that in the case of the bomb, neither side wants to use it. While in the case of a good man with a gun, his opponent is quite willing to use it, meaning that not only is it not necessarily a deterrence, it may actually increase the probability of violence.

See this link for the full episode (S01E01, The Grand Design).
 
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Trayvon Martin and a couple of guys in Kenosha had a different experience when attempting to disarm a gun owner.

You totally ignored the most reasonable outcome.
  • Fugitive is covered by the pastor’s gun while the pastor sorts out the situation, safely finding out where the fugitive’s heart is at. Maybe he is held for police, maybe prayed with, given breakfast and sent in his way with the pastor’s blessings. Including a coat if needed. Depending on the circumstances.
  • Now I cannot get rid of the bullet points, oh dear, is Yah trying to teach me that having started with the bullet points I now cannot escape them?:eek:
  • But using a gun for protection does not make one the aggressor. The man knew cotton picking well that the pastor wasn’t going to shoot him if he just walked away. The evidence that he was extremely dangerous is pretty obvious. The pastor’s mistake was to allow him to get close enough to get control of the gun.
  • It wasn’t a case of kill or be killed, he could have shot him in the thigh. But training always teaches to aim for center mass.
 
That is some quite extreme sophistry @FollowingHim . The man who tried to protect other by bringing a criminal to heel is actually guilty of suicide? Under what conditions could anyone ever resist criminality or defend themselves or others under this analysis? Why the hell should a church building be seen as “safe” for criminals? Shouldn’t it be safe for the peaceful? Jesus commanded His disciples to carry military grade weaponry, telling them it was more important than wearing a coat in winter. Now you can try and wrangle that in to some kind of spiritual lesson but you can’t deny that some of the disciples carried concealed weapons, that Jesus knew about it and that He uttered statements that they would have seen as encouraging them to. None of which squares with this neo-liberal emotional plea for disarmament you just made.
 
However, the situation described here is actually more common for an individual to encounter. And it illustrates the common problem where bringing a gun into a situation can actually make it a lot worse.

Do you have stats to support this claim? Yes sometimes it makes the situation worse. But more often than not it does improve the situation.
 
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