Just wondering...

[MarvelousMarvin]

The idea that Jesus death on the cross is only a mathematical function and only those who have knowledge that sin minus Jesus death equals zero will go to heaven, but if they try to be good people in addition to having that knowledge, Jesus death on the cross has no mathematical merit in their life and they will go to hell for trying to do good things instead of trusting fully in the merit of mathematical knowledge.

Interesting - I never thought of Jesus' death as a mathematical function! (And I love to play with math at times...) But your description of that as a false doctrine is right on. Being "good" is not good enough, since Jesus said of himself "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Therefore, to reject Jesus is to reject eternal life.

• Jesus + nothing = eternal life
  everything - Jesus = eternal death

It's as simple as 1 + 1 = 2!

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

The idea that Jesus death on the cross is only a mathematical function and only those who have knowledge that sin minus Jesus death equals zero will go to heaven, but if they try to be good people in addition to having that knowledge, Jesus death on the cross has no mathematical merit in their life and they will go to hell for trying to do good things instead of trusting fully in the merit of mathematical knowledge.

Interesting - I never thought of Jesus' death as a mathematical function! (And I love to play with math at times...) But your description of that as a false doctrine is right on. Being "good" is not good enough, since Jesus said of himself "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Therefore, to reject Jesus is to reject eternal life.

• Jesus + nothing = eternal life
  everything - Jesus = eternal death

It's as simple as 1 + 1 = 2!

Heresy 1
You are saved by faith alone and if you try to do good works you are condemned, because good works does not equal faith alone
Jesus + Good works = eternal death

Heresy 2
You can do good works without Jesus
Good Works - Jesus = eternal life

Heresy 3
You need to do a certain number of good works to be saved

__________________________________________________________________________________


You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. James 2:24 NIV 2010

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5 NIV 2010

James 2:24 does not contradict Titus 3:5 any more then a no right turn sign contradicts a no left turn sign when you are supposed to go the straight way

By the way in a sense it is not possible to do good works without Jesus because doing good works is loving Jesus if it is hating Jesus then it is bad. So it is impossible for Atheists to be good people who do good works.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Interesting topic and one we couldn't pass up.
We don't attend any church as poly is only one of the places where our beliefs don't fit with the common teachings.

We have found that we get as much opposition (maybe more) to questioning the existence of a burning hell or a supernatural 'Satan' as we do the poly subject.
It is as if you must believe in Satan and hell to be a Christian.
We just don't see that as a biblical requirement, or biblically sound for that matter.

We believe that Jesus is reining now, in the same way that God was king to the Israelites before they wanted a man for a king, and we have found no place where God authorized any man to be in a position of authority over other men (outside of his own household).

The Bible says that the head of the woman is the man, and the head of the man is Christ who is himself subject to the father.
We believe in being humble, teachable, and will listen to the truth no matter who is speaking it. If God can use an ass to speak to Balaam we should be willing to hear truth no matter who or what the truth is coming through. So we believe in a man being subject to Christ and the law of God (which defines sin) but do not believe he should be subject to or under the authority of a man.
A man would not want another man to come into his home and teach his wife contrary to his beliefs, if she was to listen to someone else she would be going against her 'head.' Likewise if a man prays with his 'head covered' (or listens to a bogus authority other then Christ) he is dishonoring his head. (1 Cor 11:4)

A bishop/overseer should serve the people, not rule them. Jesus said "the rulers of the Nations exercise power upon them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister. And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Mt 20:25-28)

We have a small flock of sheep. Someone that shepherds a flock should protect them and look after their well being.
We don't see pastors/sheperds protecting the flock today, but rather selling them out to the wolves (politicians and bankers) by miss applying Romans chapter thirteen.
They warn people about some 'Satan' (adversary) they do not see, but do not warn the people not to make contracts/covenants with the beast system, which is our adversary and represents the 'spiritual (Motivational) wickedness in high places'. So the people make covenants and sell not only themselves but their children into bondage and become nothing more then slaves to the very wolves that these shepherds were supposed to be protecting them from. I say they are not shepherds, but wolves in sheep's clothing.
In all fairness not all pastors are wolves. I believe about 5% of the pastors out there are actually teaching and protecting the flock.
But what else can we expect from churches that are created by the government.
As long as churches can be bought and paid for by their 501c3 status, they will continue to sell the people out, and make them no more then surfs to the wolves (govt.)

These are a few things commonly taught in churches we have found problems with.
Things we wouldn't have brought up if Poly Doc hadn't started wondering out loud.

This is a great thread and we really enjoy hearing how others understand scripture and differences people have with common teachings.

 

[Anonymous]

Joleneakamama wrote, "We believe that Jesus is reining now, in the same way that God was king to the Israelites before they wanted a man for a king, and we have found no place where God authorized any man to be in a position of authority over other men (outside of his own household)."

Check out Hebrew 13

 

[Mark C]

Joleneakamama wrote, "We believe that Jesus is reining now, in the same way that God was king to the Israelites before they wanted a man for a king, and we have found no place where God authorized any man to be in a position of authority over other men (outside of his own household)."

Check out Hebrew 13

There is a big difference between whether YHVH puts a "man in authority over other men" and those men who CHOOSE to do it to themselves. (With the notable exception of children! Even wives, of course, enter under the covering and authority of a husband by choice.) Joshua was told to "make no treaty" with the inhabitants of the land, but HELD to those terms when he disobeyed, and did it anyway. We are always told to honor our contracts, even to our own hurt. Romans 13 does get 'twisted' a whole bunch!

The same author said this, too:

"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?" - Romans 6:14.

 

[Anonymous]

As long as churches can be bought and paid for by their 501c3 status, they will continue to sell the people out, and make them no more then surfs to the wolves (govt.)

Undoubtedly there are churches who do this but the idea that any church with a 501c3 status will automatically do this is wrong. My own church experience has shown me that. My current pastor doesn't care about the 501c3 status the church has and has repeatedly said that if it ever came down to having to compromise the Word of God in order to keep the tax exempt status, he would gladly dispense with the 501c3. Most of the pastors I have known over the years would fall into the same category as my current pastor.

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[Hugh McBryde]

I just wonder how someone would sincerely ask Jesus into their hearts, repent of their sins, sincerely, and not get what they ask for. I'm not big on the "Sinner's Prayer" myself, but that's a big request that if sincerely meant, has to be effective.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

I just wonder how someone would sincerely ask Jesus into their hearts, repent of their sins, sincerely, and not get what they ask for. I'm not big on the "Sinner's Prayer" myself, but that's a big request that if sincerely meant, has to be effective.

That makes sense.

Did someone say that God would not honor such a prayer?

I would like to point out that I do not think God honors the words of the prayer, so much as the heart that the words came from, yet of course such a heart would produce words with proper intention towards God.

Thank you for posting I like the post

 

[sweetlissa]

The thing that comforts me most is that God knows what is in our hearts. I believe that even if I mess up every day for the rest of my life, that God knows that in my heart I am doing everything I can and everything I know to do to follow his word. I can never be perfect, which is why He has to know my love for him and that has to be the defining thing that says whether I am saved or not. Without loving Him why would any of us be doing this?

Love is the only reason. His love, our love, His love, our love. Where our heart is, there will our treasure be.

SweetLissa

 

[Joleneakamama]

Joleneakamama wrote, "We believe that Jesus is reining now, in the same way that God was king to the Israelites before they wanted a man for a king, and we have found no place where God authorized any man to be in a position of authority over other men (outside of his own household)."

Check out Hebrew 13

We believe Jesus meant what He said here in Mathew.

"the princes (rulers) of the gentiles (Nations) exercise dominion (power) over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister. And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Mt 20:25-28)

After looking up the words Pastor, Deacon, Elder and Bishop we can find nothing that would indicate any authority to rule, only obligation to serve and watch over His people.
The requirements for being a Bishop indicate leading by example, and the kind of moral integrity that would acquire the respect of others.
Because they are looked up to in a community you would want to pray for these people.
They would be natural leaders in a community, not someone paid to do a job.

We do not believe that the Bible is without errors in translation. If it was we would not have warnings about the lying pen of the scribes.