Just wondering...

[MarvelousMarvin]

How much of what is taught as Biblical doctrine and/or Christian faith and practice is really just the traditions of man? I'm not talking about the doctrines and teachings of the "wacko" cults, but of those churches that teach the fundamental Biblical truths, including the virgin birth of Jesus, His death and ressurection, salvation by grace through faith, etc. You know, like what is taught by the Baptist church on the corner, the Independant Bible Church across town, the Nazarene church, the Moody Bible Church, ...

We who believe in plural marriage already know that marriage doctrine as taught by most churches is really Greco-Roman-Catholic pagan tradition, not Scriptural at all. But what else...?

I almost hate to mention these, but what about Christmas, Easter, and Valentine's Day? All have pagan roots, and were "christianized" by the Roman Catholic Church, just like the false doctrines of celibacy of the clergy and monogamy-only for everyone else.

There's probably a host of other things, as well. I'd sure love to hear what others think.

Mark 7:7 NKJV AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

{the SHOUTING is in the Bible, not added by me.}

 

[porkchop]

I think Valentines day was made up by Hallmark to sell cards! We don't celebrate that one, and don't even get me started on mothers day....( I quit going to church on mothers day years ago because I got sick of hearing about the proverbial woman who works from sun up to sun down while her husband hung out at the gates). Well I'm being sorta silly, but still-Most holidays are pretty meaningless in a spiritual/religious way aren't they?

 

[Scarecrow]

I gave up going to the Lutheran church I attended because it seemed too ritualistic and I wasn't actually learning anything. I started attending a larger nondenominational church and was very pleased with the teaching. As my knowledge grew so did my interest in studying on my own. As my studies became more intense I began to notice little things here and there that were being said but were simply opinion which didn't match up with the scriptures. Eventually I asked the pastor about a specific statement he made which directly contradicted clear teaching in the scriptures. His reply began with "Well I think..." and he went on to repeat what he had said in front of the whole congregation. I knew then it wouldn't accomplish anything to confront him any further and my interest in that church diminished. I continued to go until the heresies became so obvious and frequent that I simply couldn't go in the church anymore. A few statements that were made: God didn't really hate Esau...Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Issac proves that Abraham believed in resurrection...God created Jesus (that was the final straw). I decided at that point that I would seek out a church by asking three questions of the church leadership:

1) Under what circumstances can a man or woman commit adultery?

2) Is it sinful for a man to have more than one wife?

3) Is divorce allowed, and if so under what circumstances?

Out of all the churches I have contacted none of them managed to answer more than one of the three to my satisfaction. Of those that managed to get one right it was the same one...I had three different pastors admit that they could not prove that it is sinful for a man to have more than one wife from the scriptures. I hold out hope for those three but lost count of all the others. This bothered me to the point that I gave a 16 page exegesis I did early in my studies of polygyny to numerous pastors in my area and gave my name and cell phone number at the bottom of an introduction letter challenging them to prove my findings wrong...with only one catch...they had to refute my findings from scripture not church doctrine or their opinion. I didn't receive one phone call. It is a sad state the modern church is in when a simple businessman such as myself cannot be answered.

So...to answer your question...I think most churches get the spelling of "Jesus" correct, beyond that everything is suspect.

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

Not only do all of the churches of which I am aware teach the false monogamy-only doctrine, I have yet to find an informed believer (one who, like you and I, actually studies the Bible for himself) in my area who believes in Biblical Marriage! So I could not even start my own church without compromising my beliefs.

What is a lonely Bible-believer to do...?

As to that pastor who said God created Jesus - according to 1 John 4:1-3, he is an antichrist!

 

[Scarecrow]

The pastor that said that is Gino Geraci from a Calvary Chapel called "Calvary South Denver". He has a radio program too and I have heard him on many occasions correct his previous statements from the previous days program. It is like he makes up his theology as he goes, and then corrects it within a few days. Sounds like the JWs and their "New Light" and the numerous "corrections" to their New World Translation. I attended Rocky Mountain Calvary in Colorado Springs and heard most of the false teaching there. It was actually kind of funny in a church that big, once they found out I believed in Biblical Marriage almost every week it was stressed that marriage was one man and one woman only.

 

[Mark C]

How much of what is taught as Biblical doctrine and/or Christian faith and practice is really just the traditions of man?

Mark 7:7 NKJV AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

{the SHOUTING is in the Bible, not added by me.}

Much, MUCH, more than 99% of the so-called "evangelical Bible churches" would ever begin to admit. And more than Biblical Families has in the past, or would now, allow me to post, sadly. (Easy example, barely scratching the surface: eating pigs and changing the Sabbath to sun-day both have explicitly pagan origins...in fact, the same origins. And almost EVERY Bible removes His Name almost every time it appears!)

O YHVH, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, "Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things." -- Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Anonymous]

This thread is interesting and revealing. I am even more impressed with the need for diversity in ministry more than unity. I see, just on this BF board, quite a variety of positions that are important to those sharing them. Few, if any of them are issues that will make or break salvation for an individual. I sincerely doubt any of us are willing to compromise what we feel important and are also unlikely to be willing to consider adapting anothers point of view.
Personally, I like the idea of each doing our own thing, parallel, but separate. Each following the headship of the Lord, not attacking each other.

 

[Scarecrow]

What I really like about it is that it gives me the opportunity to see things from a different perspective. Even if I don't agree with the opinion at least it gives me the opportunity to understand why that person has that opinion. I have also learned a number of things from people here.

 

[Anonymous]

11. The Sinners Prayer.
12. Asking Jesus into your heart.

I did both of these. Why do you think they don't have validity ? Not looking for a debate, just asking...

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[DaPastor]

11. The Sinners Prayer.
12. Asking Jesus into your heart.

I did both of these. Why do you think they don't have validity ? Not looking for a debate, just asking...

Blessings,
Fairlight

Hello Fairlight,

Scripture does not encourage, exhort, or teach us to use a specific prayer in order to get saved. It is much deeper than that. In fact, if you do research on the "sinner's prayer," you will notice that there are a few versions. Why? Because it is merely a "canned" prayer that conforms to the theology of those who are praying it. One of the biggest problems with it is that it leads to many false conversions (Yes, some people get saved by praying the sinners prayer). Many people pray the prayer and really believe that they are saved because of it. Then when they doubt their salvation, misinformed Christians pat them on the back with Scriptures on the security of their faith, when in reality, these people should be encouraged to REPENT from their sins, CONFESS the LORD[ship of] Jesus, and BELIEVE in their heart that God raised him from the dead. The sinner's prayer promotes easy believism which has contributed to the water down Christianity of the church today. (It should also be noted that many of these versions include the unscriptural "ask Jesus into the heart" phrase as well)

"Asking Jesus into the heart" is not found in a single verse in Scripture. Some will say "it conforms to the overall truth of Scripture," so it is valid. I am pretty simple in my approach to Scripture. I REALLY believe that God said exactly what He wanted to say, and when man attempts to rephrase things to conform to his view of what the Scriptures say then the problems begin. Moreover, without going into it here on the board, I do not believe it even conforms to the overall truth of Scripture.

 

[DaPastor]

This thread is interesting and revealing. I am even more impressed with the need for diversity in ministry more than unity. I see, just on this BF board, quite a variety of positions that are important to those sharing them. Few, if any of them are issues that will make or break salvation for an individual. I sincerely doubt any of us are willing to compromise what we feel important and are also unlikely to be willing to consider adapting anothers point of view.
Personally, I like the idea of each doing our own thing, parallel, but separate. Each following the headship of the Lord, not attacking each other.

Hi John,

Diversity has it's place, for sure, but I really believe in Psalm 133 - the place where God commands the blessing. I would also say that many of the things discussed here are not salvation issues. Although I know some who would turn them into salvation issues.

As far as willingness to compromise on beliefs, I would say that most are unlikely to change. However, over the years, because of indepth discussion on doctrinal issues, I have changed my positions. I guess my core conviction is this: I do not consider me right on my views as much as I think that I am required to conform to what is right. In other words, I am not the final authority, God's Word is the final authority. This gives me the freedom to be wrong and change. To many wrap up what they believe is true into a security blanket that when someone attempts to remove their security blanket, they get angry and attempt to cover themselves with more of their security blanket.

I remember when I was going to seminary and I asked the professor "if you had to choose between the Bible and your systematic theology books, which would you choose?" He said I wouldn't need to choose. Our systematic theology books are the exact expression of what Scripture teaches. This illustrates the mindset of so many people I have met over the years. It is just covered in other ways. i.e. My pastor says; my professor says; my church says; my denomination says; my group says; etc..

My heart is to follow to the best of my conscience the objective Word of God - no matter where that leads me!

 

[Scarecrow]

"This gives me the freedom to be wrong and change."

"My heart is to follow to the best of my conscience the objective Word of God - no matter where that leads me!"

When our theology is perfect and we are unable to examine things outside of our box we miss out on the potential to learn. If nothing else we can learn why others believe as they do even if we don't agree with them and there is always the potential that our theology may be flawed. I am thankful to many of the members here for their statements. I have learned a lot, and continue to learn. I am very opinionated and back up my opinions using the information I have; but I reserve the right to change my opinion should I obtain additional information that leads me to a better or different understanding of something.

Maybe it is too simplistic but I have always considered my "conscience" to be the leading of the holy Spirit. Some might call it a "sixth sense" of something of that nature, but to me there is always a sense of right or wrong and I can only attribute it to the Holy Spirit. To go against my conscience is to quench the Holy Spirit...something the scriptures warn us not to do.

 

[Tali]

I remember when I was going to seminary and I asked the professor "if you had to choose between the Bible and your systematic theology books, which would you choose?" He said I wouldn't need to choose. Our systematic theology books are the exact expression of what Scripture teaches."

Good gravy, Randy, what did you say to him? Proly not much you could say, huh.

You'll be pleased to know that there are folks who have doctorates in systematic theology and minister in Africa, where, glory to God, the dead live, the blind see, the deaf hear and the lame walk. All of this is documented and is feaking out Al-Jazeera Africa to the point that they have talk shows where the host and guest wring their hands over the fact that they are "losing Africa to Christ."

Me thinks that is a much better application of "the exact expression of what Scripture teaches," ie,''confirming the Word with signs and wonders..."

Way more fun, too, I might add!

 

[DaPastor]

When our theology is perfect and we are unable to examine things outside of our box we miss out on the potential to learn. If nothing else we can learn why others believe as they do even if we don't agree with them and there is always the potential that our theology may be flawed.

I agree.

I am thankful to many of the members here for their statements. I have learned a lot, and continue to learn. I am very opinionated and back up my opinions using the information I have; but I reserve the right to change my opinion should I obtain additional information that leads me to a better or different understanding of something.

Very good. I agree.

Maybe it is too simplistic but I have always considered my "conscience" to be the leading of the holy Spirit. Some might call it a "sixth sense" of something of that nature, but to me there is always a sense of right or wrong and I can only attribute it to the Holy Spirit. To go against my conscience is to quench the Holy Spirit...something the scriptures warn us not to do.

Scarecrow,

You may want to study this out in the Word. Scripture distinguishes between our conscience and the Holy Spirit in more than one place.

Respectfully

 

[DaPastor]

I remember when I was going to seminary and I asked the professor "if you had to choose between the Bible and your systematic theology books, which would you choose?" He said I wouldn't need to choose. Our systematic theology books are the exact expression of what Scripture teaches."

Good gravy, Randy, what did you say to him? Proly not much you could say, huh.

I was in shock. Since then I have learned that many, many believers fall in a similar category.

You'll be pleased to know that there are folks who have doctorates in systematic theology and minister in Africa, where, glory to God, the dead live, the blind see, the deaf hear and the lame walk. All of this is documented and is feaking out Al-Jazeera Africa to the point that they have talk shows where the host and guest wring their hands over the fact that they are "losing Africa to Christ."

Me thinks that is a much better application of "the exact expression of what Scripture teaches," ie,''confirming the Word with signs and wonders..."

Way more fun, too, I might add!

I see this as normative christianity! I am amazed when someone tries to convince me that God doesn't do these things today. I just grin and walk away. I have personally witnessed to many things. I would virtually be required to deny my very existence in order to ever be convinced that signs, wonders and miracles are a thing of the past.

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

What I really like about it is that it gives me the opportunity to see things from a different perspective. Even if I don't agree with the opinion at least it gives me the opportunity to understand why that person has that opinion. I have also learned a number of things from people here.

That's why I asked the question!

Knowing that certain subjects might cause - uh - discord? if discussed in an open forum, I am willing to discuss anything behind the scenes with anybody, as long as that discussion is intended to discover what the Bible really says and said discussion can be carried out among mature Christians. Man's traditions are hard to let go of for most people, as many of us know from having been given the "left foot of fellowship" because of our belief in Biblical Marriage.

Oh, and Scarecrow - your puppy is much more photogenic than anyone wearing a tie. :lol: :lol: :lol: (No, that's not in the Bible! )

 

[Tali]

I see this as normative christianity! I am amazed when someone tries to convince me that God doesn't do these things today. I just grin and walk away. I have personally witnessed to many things. I would virtually be required to deny my very existence in order to ever be convinced that signs, wonders and miracles are a thing of the past.

[/quote]

Copy that, Chap! In addition to all that is going on in Africa, when we were ministering in Mexico, about 100 miles away from us folks were getting raised from the dead as well. My fave story is one of two teen aged girls who had been killed. The locals had limed their bodies, and when they were raised from the dead their faces were all puckered up while they spit out the lime. :lol: Don't tell me God doesn't have a sense of humor!

The thing that I have never understood about people who don't think He does anything today because "now we have the Bible," don-cha-know, is what in the world do you do with the promise that Jesus Christ is ''the same yesterday, today, and forever?"

I agree that sometimes people can and do get their eyes on the signs, but to say they don't happen, or worse yet, to accuse people through whom miracles flow (and as a result souls are won by the kazillions) of moving in the power of the enemy is just wild...

 

[DaPastor]

Alit,

Although I totally embrace the miraculous, I hate sign chasing. In my life, I have found that I do not need to chase signs - God simply places me in situations where they take place. He also decides when. He sometimes doesn't do any miraculous in and around my life. He is to be trusted either way. On the other hand, I hate sign despising just as much. I have found that these folks actually stop God from moving in their life. Anyway, my two cents.

 

[Tali]

I'll match my two cents with yours, bro. I agree completely. Both ditches are dreadful.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

1.
The idea that people cannot choose if they are saved or not after God has offered them salvation and provided assistance to move their heart but that God has to force them to be saved against their own will, and all those who God does not force to be saved against their own will will burn eternally in a lake of burning fire.

2.
The idea that Jesus death on the cross is only a mathematical function and only those who have knowledge that sin minus Jesus death equals zero will go to heaven, but if they try to be good people in addition to having that knowledge, Jesus death on the cross has no mathematical merit in their life and they will go to hell for trying to do good things instead of trusting fully in the merit of mathematical knowledge.

3.
The idea that people could be good people without having a proper friendship with Jesus, and therefor if someone could keep all the ten commandments having rejected Jesus they could make it to heaven because it is only a mathematical concept as described in 2, but people just have to always sin all the time therefor we must only be saved by the mathematical function in point 2. And most importantly it has nothing to do with our relationship with God only with math.

4. Because points 2 and 3 are myths the cross has no value in salvation.

Points 1 through 4 above are doctrines of men.

3 is a myth because you cannot love God without loving God, therefor you cannot be a good person who has kept all the ten commandments without having a proper friendship with Jesus.

4 is a myth because although knowledge of the cross is not the requirement for salvation, the cross is part of the means God choose to use to achieve salvation.