Israel, give back the land, ARE YOU KIDDING Obama?

[Anonymous]

I am so upset over the US, particularly our President. We are getting further and further away from our friendship and allies to the Nation of Israel. The Bible is clear. God is going to take his hand off the U.S.A.
Lord, please heal this land. Give us a government that understands the need
to be with Israel.
I can't wait to watch Glenn Beck tonight.
Any comments?

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

There is a Great book out called: "As they Have Done to Israel." It presents a case that the nations and peoples who bless ethnic Israel have too been blessed and those who have cursed them too have been cursed. A very solid work with good resources used to build a strong case that God's ethnically elected Jewish race is still special in his eye and to be protected.

 

[ylop]

Comments as requested:

. Support for the modern political entity named Israel is not universal among bible-believing Christians, nor is it canonical or necessary for salvation.
. Some people find it strange that selected Christians give unconditional support for a nation state that is atheistic, militarily aggressive, and persecutes and kills people including Christians in surrounding territories.

ylop

 

[itainteasy]

Comments as requested:

. Support for the modern political entity named Israel is not universal among bible-believing Christians, nor is it canonical or necessary for salvation.
. Some people find it strange that selected Christians give unconditional support for a nation state that is atheistic, militarily aggressive, and persecutes and kills people including Christians in surrounding territories.

ylop

Amen, ylop!!

I know there are other christians who feel the same way. I have not heard of the book Dr. Keith mentioned. It would be interesting to look into but I got this article on email, a bit speculative but interesting:

Daily News Digest

BEHOLD THE WHIRLWIND OF THE LORD

TORNADO DEVASTATION FOCUSED ON ALABAMA -- I WILL CURSE THOSE WHO CURSE YOU?

As the worst killer storms in years continued to cut a swath through the Southern United States, the lying false prophets in American Christianity continue to wail in shock and disbelief at the carnage. The storms, called the worst natural disaster since Hurricane Katrina, were described as almost having a grudge against the state of Alabama in particular, for the death toll in that once great state was exponentially higher than any other.

With the death toll topping 350 in 7 states, more than 250 of the casualties were in Alabama. Hundreds of homes, businesses, and other structures are now rubble, as over 164 tornados cut a swath of angry destruction across the American Southland. Experts say the storms, categorized as an "act of God" by the insurance industry, will likely be recorded as the worst tornado disaster in 37 years.

At this moment in time, we're not hearing a word from the lying false prophets in the corpse known as the "church" -- those who have misled Americans into believing God will bless them if they bless the Little Horn state of Israel. For years, we've heard the incessant drone that falsely claims America is sliding into judgment because of our alleged lack of standing firm with Israel. The classic verse from Genesis, restated tens of thousands of times from pulpits across the entire nation, has been falsely applied to American support for the Jewish state. For those unversed in Scripture, the promise was made to Abraham, and his seed:

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee..." Genesis 12:3, 17:7

The fact is, the liars in the church, leading the prophesied falling away from the truth (II Thessalonians 2), have continually misapplied this promise to the seed of Abraham to the Jewish people, when the New Testament flatly states the promise to bless or curse the seed of Abraham applies to Jesus Christ, and His true followers:

"Neither, because they [the Jews] are the seed of Abraham, are they all children...For the promise...was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed...." -- Romans 9:7, 4:13, 9:8, Galatians 3:29

While our hearts ache for those who have experienced great loss, and although many will believe these words to be harsh and insensitive when so many are grieving, the sooner we connect the judgment (the reaping) to the true cause (the sowing) of that judgment, the better. The fact is, Alabama has led the nation on two fronts, the first in support for the state of Israel, and the second in the tyrannical oppression against true Christianity. Thus, God's promise of a devastation to those who "curse" the true seed of Abraham has, once again, just been proven to be the true Word of the LORD.

The Jewish Supremacists in the Rapture Cult, and other Israel-First churches will now conveniently forget to mention that Alabama leads the nation in support for Israel, because they've been promising a blessing for that policy. And Alabama has indeed "blessed" Israel, for in 1943, five years before Israel became a nation, the state of Alabama passed a resolution unanimously calling for the creation of the state of Israel.

Alabama led the nation in supporting Israel again in 2002. On April 4th, 2002 the Alabama Governor signed Resolution 85, which passed UNANIMOUSLY in both the Alabama state House and Senate. This resolution called for the unequivocal support of the state of Israel. Alabama made $50 million in 2010 alone on exports to Israel (they've earned $553 million on Israel since 1996), but even that was dwarfed by the $2.2 billion generated in military contracts between Israel and Alabama in 2010.

Somebody's getting "blessed" in all this, but it sure isn't Jesus Christ, the true seed of Abraham.

Meanwhile, at the same time, Alabama has not only sustained the Antichrist state of Israel, they've cursed Jesus Christ, and His people. Those same state courts have consistently ruled against the Gospel. How many remember the big fight over the removal of the Ten Commandments from the courthouses? That was Alabama.

Indeed, shortly after the big ten were cursed, those same clever court folk actually fired the judge who fought the good fight. On November 14, 2003, an Alabama ethics panel removed Chief Justice Roy Moore from office over his Biblical stance. Even more recently, Alabama's evil leaders struck down a law passed by the people, which sought to protect the rights of Christian citizens. Significantly, Christian observers stated a Mormon faction was pivotal in striking down the people's choice of asserting their historic ties to the Gospel.

The Mormon connection is significant, as there is now a major move underway, via the emerging alliance between Mormon leader Glen Beck, and Rapture Cult liar John Hagee's influential Christians United For Israel (CUFI). This coalescing political move is transforming Mormonism into yet another Jewish Supremacist power bloc, as the Little Horn continues its historic healing, and its meteoric rise to global dominion.

Meanwhile, Alabama doesn't know what hit them, but when they regain their footing, most are destined to return to the false prophet run churches who led them astray in the first place.

For more on the true seed of Abraham, and the false doctrine that relinquishes the genuine identity of Christians as the chosen people, see the short video on THE BEAST THAT WAS

Bible Prophecy, and the how the Beast of government seeks to place themselves in the role of God, is examined on a regular basis in The Apocalypse Chronicles, one of our printed newsletters. To receive a complimentary subscription, send your name and postal mailing address to James@GEOmedianetwork.com or just CLICK HERE.
The Apocalypse Chronicles Radio Program runs every night on GEO at 8 PM Pacific. To listen, simply click the GEO link below. ____________________________
The above news and commentary, and much more, is drawn from portions of today's news at ChristianMediaDaily.com, and is presented to GEO subscribers as a courtesy.

_________________________________________________________

 

[steve]

sorry, i cannot swallow this 2+2=14

 

[Maddog]

There are many good people with good intentions that are quick to "connect the dots" and label one calamity after another as the "judgement of God". In the Old Testement historical record, when God judges, he sends a prophet to say "turn and repent" or else! There is a definite pre- connection and not just post-hoc reasoning. A very common verse that displays the "if you do, then I will" scenario is "IF my people which are called by my name shall humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked way and seek my face, THEN I will hear from Heaven and will heal their land..." Remember though, not all prophecies in the OT are for us today neither are the promises. Be judicious in the application of specific prophecies.
Where is the specific prophetic pronouncement upon the people of Alabama? New Orleans? Florida? Mississippi? Japan? All these have had terrible catastrophies. I am not saying this is not God's judgement, I am asking for the rest of what God does in warning "His people". Does that warning rise to the level of the OT prophets' veracity and therefore we should cannonize new scripture as the writings of prophet what's-his-name? Didn't the Druids do that? Didn't Joseph Smith do that? How are we any different? Will we embrace Harold Camping's name after Saturday?
God's alleged former bride is reported to have done terrible things but I ask, who is telling the story? The same reporting machine that says good is bad and bad is good- they have credibility now? Maybe Al-Jezera? Maybe the Old Gray Lady- NY Times? BBC? Our own US govt? Perhaps the same machine that says the forced removal of the preborn is ok because everybody's doing it and it's just those wierd americans that are opposed for some made up religious reason? Are we predisposed to say that everything Israel does is bad and everything that that bastion of liberty Syria does is good- or Jordan or Egypt or PLO and Hamas are freedom fighters? Where is the judgement upon Egypt for their complicity in the attack in NY? Doesn't God avenge the blood of the innocent? USA has been Israel's muscle and money for quite a while- there's no denying that. Is that bad? or just bad politics?
The folks that defend Israel's right to exist are now in collusion with murderous ways? They may be waaay off theologically or perhaps spot on but to label fellow believers as cultic is a dangerous move that has "division" written all over it.
Step back a moment and ponder the brilliance of the father-of-lies at getting believers to fight among ourselves thus negating any good we might be able to accomplish together.
Brilliant. Effective.

maddog

 

[itainteasy]

Do you know that marriage licenses for a jew marrying a non jew are illegal in Isreal. Do you know that all school and most villages/cities/businesses are segregated? I wonder why Jewish Americans fought so hard and marched with civil rights types down south but Isrealis wish to keep segregation for themsleves and their children? maybe the south was right all along!?! By the way seperate is definitely not equal in Isreal:

http://blog.sojo.net/2010/05/19/christi ... ppression/

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... e-1.321728

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/mar/24/israel

I thank God I am not the wrong "race" in "Isreal" today!

 

[Anonymous]

Romans chapter 11 clearly outlines God's plan for Israel. Israel was broken off because of their unbelief and He had a purpose in doing it, as revealed in this chapter. Gentile Christians were grafted in for a time and that time is soon over. God has a plan for Israel in the last days. Are the people that are called Jews in Israel today really of Israel, most likely and no one has any way to prove otherwise. The nation being re-established and surviving against all odds is miraculous and such has never been done before. Are the people of Israel atheistic and not serving the God of the Bible, quite likely, but God has His hand on them. They will again be the favored people of God in this world, when the time of the gentiles is over. We must heed the advice of Gamaliel, and beware lest we fight against God.

 

[Scarecrow]

Well said John. It is easy to look at circumstances and be judgmental rather than trusting in the Lord and waiting on His timing.

 

[itainteasy]

Romans chapter 11 clearly outlines God's plan for Israel. Israel was broken off because of their unbelief and He had a purpose in doing it, as revealed in this chapter. Gentile Christians were grafted in for a time and that time is soon over. God has a plan for Israel in the last days. Are the people that are called Jews in Israel today really of Israel, most likely and no one has any way to prove otherwise. The nation being re-established and surviving against all odds is miraculous and such has never been done before. Are the people of Israel atheistic and not serving the God of the Bible, quite likely, but God has His hand on them. They will again be the favored people of God in this world, when the time of the gentiles is over. We must heed the advice of Gamaliel, and beware lest we fight against God.

These are definitely good point for me, Mr. Whitten. I may need scripture about them being "favored" though. Doesn't it mean in Romans that they will be grafted into the new covenant. You mean perhaps that God has not forsaken his special promises just for them?

 

[Scarecrow]

Jeremiah 33:25-26 Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth, then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them."

There are a number of other passages similar to this one...it just so happens that on this trip through my 66 favorite books I happened to be here just the other night...

...and it is the gentiles that are the ones grafted into the true vine.

Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:15-18 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you everyone for staying civil. This is a decsisive subject. If the Bible is our final authority then that is where we go for God's statements,
facts and prophecy.
This is a present subject and it is important to the people of U.S. notice I said everyone. Israel is a land of contention and the Bible says it will remain until Christ comes back and defeats all the nations against Him.
I am not touching the subject of pre or post mill. or the Rapture.
again thanks for the stimulating and intellegent discussion
dede

 

[CecilW]

I join mo.nurse in her thanks for the tone of this discussion.

I readily admit to experiencing a good deal of confusion on this topic. I hear good arguments on both sides.

I hear God making forever type sounds, but also hear him talking of divorcing Israel. Daniel was told that 70 weeks were determined for His people, and that Messiah would be cut off in the midst of the last week.

My understanding has been that from that time forward, Jews would be on the same basis as gentiles -- grafted back into the vine on an individual basis, rather than as a matter of genetics. Guess I still believe that.

Having said that, I am reminded of David and Saul. David could have, with justification, gone and deposed Saul once God had removed kingly authority over Israel from Saul and placed it upon himself. Yet he honored Saul and let God work out the circumstances. Seems likely that the same might apply to us as regards a the Jews / bloodline of Abraham, wherever found. We're the current true seed of Abraham, yet honoring of those in the bloodline, and letting God handle the circumstances.

I don't know if that is theologically sound or not. It is purely a statement of my current personal opinion. Sir BumbleBerry says it is worth 1 dum-dum lollipop, but I don't get it until I fast (water only) for 35 days. I, in turn, am chasing Sir BumbleBerry around, but he's too small and quick for me! *sigh*

 

[itainteasy]

More good christian men questioning. He welcomes refutation by the way, according to his video description/comments:

http://www.youtube.com/user/vekl#p/u/3/eum0ZElTjZc

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

These are definitely good point for me, Mr. Whitten. I may need scripture about them being "favored" though. Doesn't it mean in Romans that they will be grafted into the new covenant. You mean perhaps that God has not forsaken his special promises just for them

The key to properly understanding the doctrine of Israel has to do with understanding the doctrine of election in the Bible.

In Deuteronomy 7:6-8 we see the ethnic group, the Jewish race as a whole, was chosen, elected by the Lord. We see this also going back to when God elected Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in Genesis 12, 15, and 17.

This election is a physical one, not a spiritual one. Circumcision was the physical sign of this physical covenant. This election guarantees that the nation of Israel, the ethnic people, will never cease to exist. The Jewish race has existed since the time they were marked off through the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All who are born in that line are Jews by their DNA code. Nothing can alter this covenant promise for their continual existence. Many indeed have tried throughout history to get rid of them but they all fail because as Dr. Harrison has rightly said, when you see a Jew you see the mark of eternity in earthly history. Many many promises in Scripture assert they shall never disappear, that their covenant is everlasting and eternal.

Satan hates the Jewish people. A straight forward plain reading of Revelation 12 gives an entire chapter devoted to the Satanic hatred that exists towards the Jewish people.

When we come to Romans, as Pastor John noted, we see that the covenant is still there and though not all are spiritually elected, those who personally believe, they as a people are still physically elected. There is indeed no difference in the way a Jew or Gentile is saved. They are are all brought into the grace of the Lord the same way. But, a Jew never loses his or her physical position in the covenant of God.

When a person reads Romans 11 they must get their definitions of terms right or they will forever be confused. Many think the text is saying the Gentiles are grafted into the Jews. That is not the words used. The Jews and the Gentiles are being blessing by the root, which is either the covenant of God's blessing or even possibly the Abrahamic covenant as set forth in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. A quick reading of those chapters show the covenant made with Abraham was UNCONDITIONAL. Abraham was put to sleep and God passed through the pieces alone to show that he ALONE would bring about the fulfillment of the covenant.

A key point by Paul made in Romans 11 is that those who think God is done with Israel as a people are in the sin of pride. As Paul specifically said, "But if some of the branches were broken off, and you [Gentiles], although a wild olive shoot [not natural born Jews], were grafted in among the others and now share/partake [not overtake or replace] in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do NOT BE ARROGANT toward the branches [the Jews by nature]. If you are, remember it is not you [the Gentiles] who support the root, but the root supports you. Then you [Gentiles] will say, 'Branches were broken off so that I [a Gentile] might be grafted in.' That is true. They [the natural Jews] were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches those born naturally in the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob], neither will he spare you [Gentiles]. . . . And even they [the natural Jews], if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them [Jews] in again. For if you [Gentiles] were cut from what was by nature a wild olive tree [born outside of the natural elected ethnic line], and grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, HOW MUCH MORE WILL THESE, THE NATURAL BRANCHES, [the Jews by physical birth], be grafted back into their own olive tree." (Romans 11:17-24).

So long as we keep the terms clear and understand who the pronouns refer to it is absolutely clear and plain that God intends to restore his natural Jewish people back into a position of blessing. The OT was full of promises made to them about their land. Though they are now back in their homeland they are there in unbelief.

Thus yes they do act wrongly in instances because they are an unbelieving nation.

But we should not be arrogant towards them because they will be brought back to faith at some point in the future.

Plus, we must, if we believe the Bible to be true and inspired recognize that God made a promise to the national Israelite people concerning their land. The land promise was clearly, in detail, with precision described to Abraham and he was told that that land would be given to them as an everlasting possession. God said this:

"To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Ammorites, the Cannanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites." (15:18).

Again we see the detailed and explicit promise given to the Abraham about this eternal possession of the land: "And I WILL establish my covenant between me [God] and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an EVERLASTING covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I WILL give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, ALL the land of Canaan, for AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION, and I will be their God" (Gen. 17:7-8).

At no time in history has this promise ever been fulfilled. Indeed its fulfillment is only when the land is lived in by the Jews forever as the covenant made to them is an everlasting covenant. This covenant promise is repeated throughout the entire Bible. Even in one of the oldest books of the NT it opens to the Jews who are living in dispersion (James 1:1). Moses told the Jews that if they disobeyed the Mosaic covenant that they would be dispersed throughout the nations. Deuteronomy 28 sets forth the curses that would come in Israel when they disobeyed their covenant. Part of that would be dispersion among the nations.

But, also in Deut 28 and in 30 God shows that one day when they repent they will be brought back to a place of blessing. God says, "then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes . . . and he will gather you AGAIN FROM ALL the PEOPLES WHERE THE LORD SCATTERED you. . . . . And the Lord your God WILL BRING YOU INTO THE LAND that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it" (Deut. 30:3-5).

*My ALL CAPS in places is instead of bold since I can't get it to work easily in this. I'm not yelling.*

The point is that EVERYONE agrees the Jews as a nation were dispersed. That was a literal fulfillment of the promise of judgment against them. So why will the promise of restoration not be just as literal and real as the dispersion? It has to be if we take the Bible in its plain and straight forward teaching.

God shall fulfill his promises to this ethnic nation. They have an ethnic election that carries with it some earthly land blessings. One day in the new earth Israel will possess that portion of the land forever. When Christ turns the hearts of the nation to him and the nation as a whole believes they will then obey God and will be forever settled back in their homeland. This will be in the earthly millennial kingdom as well as in the New Earth come.

There is no verse or any justification for the idea that God will change a promise. If he can change his promise to the Jews then he could also change his promise to us as believers. A Promise made in a formal official unilateral covenant is binding and solely rests upon God for its ultimate fulfillment. If God does not save the nation of Israel, bring them into their land for an eternal possession of it, then God has lied and the Bible is an unworthy book. The Great Calvinist and Presbyterian scholar Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse said that if these promises of the land are not fulfilled exactly as promised then the Bible presents a lie and is to be rejected. He made that comment in his massive 4 volume commentary set on the book of Romans. The entire thrust of the Bible is indeed that the Jews have a special ethnic election that keeps their line in existence. Nothing can destroy the race or remove them from that place of blessing which will one day materialize into both physical and spiritual blessings as one day all of the nation will both be ethnically elect as well as spiritually elect, i.e. both ethnically Jews as well as believers in the Messiah. In that day they will possess the land forever for an everlasting fulfillment of the promise made to them by the everlasting God.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Jeremiah 33:25-26 Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth, then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them."

Great verse Scarecrow.

The Bible is full of these types of promises and reaffirmations of the covenant to them as an ethic people throughout the entire Bible.

The restoration of their fortunes is a broad statement that includes so much, even the restoration of their place in their promised land.

Their these types of reaffirmation promises made throughout all of Scripture. The people of Israel have yet to fulfill these promises.

Dr. Walter Kaiser, President of Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, has well said that if God can change his land promises made to the ethnic Jews then why could he not also change his spiritual promises made to his believers? His question is exactly the right question.

An adjustment in a law is one thing. God can adjust his laws as a principle of government. He can require sacrifices in one age and adjust that to a different law in another age (see Hebrews 7, especially verse 12).

But there is nothing in the Bible that ever hints or suggests that God can or would alter a promise. The nature of covenant promise itself prohibits that and thus Dr. Kaiser is on target by pressing that question upon all who think in those terms. The everlasting covenant made to Abraham is also, as Kaiser rightly noted, the place where the Gentiles get their promise of salvation and blessing. Thus their is a serious contradiction for those who in one sentence want to say salvation is eternal and everlasting for the Gentiles but the land promise made to the Jews is temporal. The covenant contains BOTH in it. Thus there is no way to justify chopping and dissecting the covenant up and trying to make one promise eternal, like salvation, and another promise temporal like the land promise. It just does not work and to those who try that it shows a bias they have. Most try and make the promise of salvation eternal while making the land covenant temporal. That is sloppy exegesis and biased interpretation.

Dr. John Walvoord at Dallas Seminary years ago asked all of the so-called Calvinists this question too. Many Calvinists boast in their theology about God's election of sinners can never be altered.

Well he rightly asked, "if you as a Calvinist believe in unconditional election what happened to your doctrine of unconditional election in regard to the Jews and their land promises? How can an elect jew ever become un-elected and lose his place of covenant blessing if election is unconditional?"

To date no Calvinist theologian has ever answered that question in any serious of piece of scholarly literature. Indeed I do not think they can. To claim in one sentence that God is absolutely sovereign, as the Calvinist claims, and to claim that if God elects that it cannot be altered, as a Calvinist does, then if the Bible presents the Jews as an elected nation then that nation can NEVER become unelected. To say that is to say then that election is conditional, something the Calvinist theology forthrightly rejects.

But as Dr. Walvoord brilliantly pointed out, some Calvinists who claim the election in regards to salvation cannot be undone change their tune and become Arminian and Semi-Pelagian when dealing with Israel's election. Such should not be.

If God has elected the nation of Israel then he shall also fuflill his purpose with that nation and they can never become non-elect. That is consistent theology and one that every true Calvinist must come to terms with if he or she wants to be consistent in their own confession of doctrine in that regard.

 

[ylop]

Some Christians believe there is a difference between:

(a) Acknowledging Israel's elect position in the kingdom of God; and

(b) Providing massive financial and military aid for an aggressive nuclear-armed modern atheist state.

and that you can believe in (a) without necessarily supporting (b).

ylop

 

[CecilW]

AND, some Christians aren't Calvinists ... Even on this board!

 

[ylop]

Acknowledging Israel's special position...

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Dr Allen, Excellent replies. I have a few more questions: How do we know that what is purported to be ethnic Jews today are even that- truly Jews by birth or lineage as they had been scattered for 1900 years? Did they do a paternity test for example with archived DNA? What is to stop a splinter group from self-determining they are the "lost" tribe or the Ethiopians from claiming status as the half-tribe of Ephraim or Manassah? Second, can we accurately believe that the act which created the current state of Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy and the UN is a minister of Gods prophecy and fulfillment? Alot of Bible prophecy hinges on ungodly men doing Yhwh's bidding. (Makes me go "Hmmmm") Could there be "another" fulfillment and the current state is the counterfeit? Could we be theologically narcisistic and assume because this has happened during our time that is HAS to be the fulfillment of prophecy? There are lots of numbers having been thrown about in recent days that hinge on Israel becoming a nation but those number crunchers have instead made evangelicals to appear the fool. I am thinking, why not instead be an amillenialist(I am not) and learn again how to live the message of the gospel without that get-outta-jail-free card called the rapture excusing our less than godly ways?
just pondering...

First great questions Jack. Let me add this preliminary remark about the Calvinistic aspect. Indeed not all are Calvinists but for those who are there is no excuse to claim personal election is eternal and everlasting while dissecting Israel's election into a temporal conditional election, which is more of an Arminian position. That is the only point I am stressing about that, i.e. theological consistency in regard to the doctrine of election.

Now on to your questions.

How do we know that what is purported to be ethnic Jews today are even that- truly Jews by birth or lineage as they had been scattered for 1900 years? Did they do a paternity test for example with archived DNA? What is to stop a splinter group from self-determining they are the "lost" tribe or the Ethiopians from claiming status as the half-tribe of Ephraim or Manassah?

There are about six different standards being used. I'll give you here here the main four: (1) Political Definition: where a person lives. If you live in Israel you are an Israelite. (2) Religious definition: those who embrace Judaism. (3) Maternal definition: those whose mother was Jewish. and (4) The biblical definition: those who are born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, i.e. those whose line comes down from the forefathers. This last position is the biblical one. Jewishness is through the father's lines, a patriarchal headship line. Ancestry line can be traced. And yes, a true ethnic Jew can be tested to see if their DNA is from the Semitic bloodlines. They have a distinct DNA code. Medical doctors that I have met to discuss this confirm the distinctive DNA evidence lines. The lost tribe idea is non-sense in that there is neither any biblical nor scientific evidence for such ideas. Some that I have met from that ideology are what we can simply call "wanna-be Jews."

Second, can we accurately believe that the act which created the current state of Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy and the UN is a minister of Gods prophecy and fulfillment? Alot of Bible prophecy hinges on ungodly men doing Yhwh's bidding. (Makes me go "Hmmmm") Could there be "another" fulfillment and the current state is the counterfeit? Could we be theologically narcisistic and assume because this has happened during our time that is HAS to be the fulfillment of prophecy?

Second, can we accurately believe that the act which created the current state of Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy and the UN is a minister of Gods prophecy and fulfillment? Alot of Bible prophecy hinges on ungodly men doing Yhwh's bidding. (Makes me go "Hmmmm") Could there be "another" fulfillment and the current state is the counterfeit? Could we be theologically narcisistic and assume because this has happened during our time that is HAS to be the fulfillment of prophecy?

God works as the sovereign King of the universe. He even uses evil to bring about good (see Genesis 50:20). Read that text and context carefully. No matter if one is more Calvinistic or less Calvinistic, even a Deist, there is solid ground to believe that God works through secondary means to accomplish his sovereign purposes. For example, even the unsaved Nebuchadnezzar realized this (Dan. 4:34-35). Read those verses and you can see how God accomplishes his purposes. Ephesians 1:11 also makes it unmistakably clear as well: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to him who works ALL THINGS according to the purpose of HIS WILL, o the praise of his glorious grace . . . ." In one Th.D dissertation a scholar argued that it was actually Harry Truman who signed off on the state of Israel to exist. Why did he do that? When asked he said, "I read my Bible as a child because I did not play sports. I wore glasses so I read the Bible. The OT promises the land to the people called the Jews. THus, when presented with the fact to help them become an official state again I signed off on the declaration."

Many people do no realize that it was Truman's faith that led him to declare and recognize the people and boundaries of current Israel to be a sovereign and free nation. After the many efforts of the UN and Balfour declaration failed later some friends of Truman were taken to meet him. One of those friends was a Jew. He pleaded for Truman to stand with the Jews. At the end of the meeting he promised his close friend and the Jew with his close friend that he would indeed support an independent state for the Jewish people.

Anyone can buy this book and read all about how the current state of Israel came about in the excellent book by David Brog: "Standing with Israel." Here is a little info on David Brog and why his account on this is a superb treatment of the subject:

"David Brog is the executive director of Christians United for Israel (CUFI). Before CUFI, Brog worked in the United States Senate for seven years, rising to be chief of staff to Senator Arlen Specter and staff director of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He has also served as an executive at America Online and practiced corporate law in Tel Aviv, Israel and Philadelphia, PA. Brog is the author of Standing with Israel: Why Christians Support the Jewish State (2006) and In Defense of Faith: the Judeo-Christian Idea and the Struggle for Humanity (2010). In 2007, the Forward newspaper listed Brog in its "Forward 50" most influential Jews in America. He is a graduate of Princeton University and Harvard Law School."

The Jews will come and go in their land until the end of time. They were dispersed in unbelief. It is told to us in the Bible that they will be run over by the Gentiles, the pagans, until the end. Desolation is decreed for the Jewish people (Dan. 9:26 specifically says this). Also Jesus told us this: "They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive AMONG ALL NATIONS, and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:24).

So we do know that the Jewish people by Deuteronomy 28 and 29 and with these verses will be under judgment until they as a whole come to believe in the Messiah. But, we also know that the Bible clearly predict they will first gather together in unbelief and be a nation before coming to faith. This is where they are at for the moment. The whole has not yet believed but they now exist a a nation in one location. Ezekiel 7 speaks to this. Also, today in Israel there are about 100 Judeo-Christian fellowships where the Messiah is worshiped. Could the nation be overrun again and lost in the physical geographical sense again before the Messiah returns? Sure it could happen. But then the people would still be a people and nation just without a homeland to own as their own for the time being. The national people of Israel can never be destroyed so long as God is alive. Though they may be scattered they can never become extinct. As for the times of the Gentiles we see the Bible talks about this too: "a partial hardening has come upon Israel [the physical Jewish race], until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And then all Israel will be saved. . . ." (Rom. 25b-26).

When God completes the number of salvations from the non-Jewish ethnic peoples then he will restore Israel. We do not know for 100% certainty when or even if this current state of Israel will last until then. But we do know that they will be gathered and then brought to belief and then their land will be protected forever, even into the kingdom era as well as into the New Earth era.

I am thinking, why not instead be an amillenialist(I am not) and learn again how to live the message of the gospel without that get-outta-jail-free card called the rapture excusing our less than godly ways?

The idea of the rapture is a distinct doctrine that is not directly connected to how one views Israel. There are many people who hold different views on the timing of the rapture that still agree on the basic and fundamental premise that Israel is to given their land and will one day be restored in their land. As for the amills that is an odd way to say that. One's eschtological views ought not to determine ones soteriological views, the gospel. The rapture is a sub-related doctrine under the umbrella of theology called eschatology and is at best a C or D level doctrine. A class "A" doctrine under eschatology is that Christ will physically return in the future to culminate history with heaven for the saints and hell for the unsaved and that he will establish a New Heaven and New Earth. The second or class "B" level doctrine in the theological triage is probably the issue over the millennium. Thus the rapture issue is about a "C" or "D" level issue. Therefore, the issue over Israel is both a soteriological issue, a question of will God fulfill his promise to save the nation, and also a Paterology doctrine, i.e. the characteristics and faithfulness of God. The issue there is again, will God fulfill his promises as he specifically stated?

The doctrine of Israel only borders on the issue of eschatology in the sense that it pertains to the future time when Christ shall return to apply the promises made to them. Even some amillennial scholars now, as I have been told from other professors in the seminary, have conceded that unless we want to present the idea that God us unfaithful we must find some way to find fulfillment to the Jewish people for the promises by God made to them. Dr. B.B. Warfield understood this in his day and he tried to come up with a system for this even when there was no actual land of Israel on the world map. But today that route is no longer needed. Some amills have admitted that in the New Earth to come that God will have a place on the geographical world map called Israel and there he will give to the Jews their eternal and everlasting land.

The premills then just differ with them in time as they claim it will occur in the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth just before the millennium. But BOTH of those groups who want to be faithful to the promise of God doctrine realize that in some ways those land promises have to come true lest we violate the faithfulness of God. So it is more of a Theology Proper or even a Paterology and soteriological issue than an eschatological one.

And neither theology would or should teach a "get out of "jail" card idea. Many godly and faithful theologian from both camps who both support a future and see the plain teachings of the Bible on Israel recognize that all saints must grow in the faith and the all who love Christ will be persecuted. The idea that people can just live in sin is a problem in one's zoeology doctrine, i.e. personal sanctification, and not so much pertaining to one's eschatology. The one area of eschatology that would apply to zoeology wold be with the doctrine of imminence, i.e. w should look or Christ to return every day as he stands now at the door (James 5:9). Both the amill teacher and the premill teacher can affirm imminence and thus not violate the doctrine of sanctification that comes from looking to see Christ return each day.