How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submission?

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

A quick question: What would you see as the practical benefits when the family head is voluntarily in submission to godly biblical leadership?

When I am saying godly, I'm referring to someone or a group of godly leaders who affirm the essentials of the faith and also affirm the correct doctrine of marriage.

If those things exist how important is it to the whole family for the leader of the family to model submission to more mature spiritual leadership such as pastors/elders? How can this help the family as a whole? What would be (or are) the practical benefits to the whole family?

Dr. Allen

 

[Corey]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

Hebrews13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you.

Import according to scripture!

 

[Anonymous]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

It is certainly far easier to teaech your children that they must submit to the authority of their father when the father is willingly submitting to the authority of godly leaders. Actions always speak louder than words, especially with children.

When I am saying godly, I'm referring to someone or a group of godly leaders who affirm the essentials of the faith and also affirm the correct doctrine of marriage.

Herein lies the bigger problem! We attended a doctrinally sound church, and my husband was willingly under the scriptural authority of the leaders in the church....until we began discussing our position on "the correct doctrine of marriage", as you so eloquently put it. Robert (my husband) has been faithfully conversing with the pastor regarding PM, and the pastor has been very open and respectful, but I'm afraid it is all for naught, as the consequences of a pastor accepting the principles of PM are just too far reaching. I hope and pray that I'm wrong, but I think I'm being realistic.

So, I think the chances of finding godly leaders who affirm the correct doctrine of marriage are pretty slim.

 

[Mark C]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

So, I think the chances of finding godly leaders who affirm the correct doctrine of marriage are pretty slim.

No question. If such a leader submits to Caesar instead of YHVH, Katie, I would have to suggest that it is a contradiction in terms. His license tells us who he serves.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

It is sad when there are few godly leaders today or in a particular area.

But back to the question, when/if those are found how important is it for the family head to be in submission? What are the practical benefits of this for the whole family when the head of the family is also submissive to those in authority over him?

How important is it for family heads to seek to be under authority since they themselves are in roles of authority?

Dr. Allen

 

[Corey]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

What would happen, if these teachers were found? Would we support them or get what we want and abandon them to the judgment of their colleagues and congregations? Would we nick pick them or appreciate them?

I know several scholars who would agree with the members of this forum but they have families also. They share the same concerns as you do. The issue really isn’t leadership, now it is supporting those who are willing to put their neck on the chopping block for this. When I say scholars I am referring to men who come from prestigious schools and are directly associated with the biggest Christian authors of our day. They could help reach family members and Christendom in mass, letting other Christians know you aren’t heretics but that we have been wrong about this issue all along. If we want the Christian community to seriously give this a whirl we must empower the men to carry the truth and vision. To the Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Independent churches, and all in mainstream Christianity. Not as a cult but as teachers of the truth, keeping what is correct and correcting what is wrong in our current Christian thought. Please let us band together for the sake of truth and righteousness. We have supported men and things with less noble cause than the truth. I know that this has been a little off topic so allow me to steer back on track. I believe it is very important that we as husbands honor these men and lay aside pride. I believe we as families should give ear and support these Godly teachers who would stand for biblical marriage!

Dr. Corey

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

True indeed. Sometimes we all are prone to be unecessarily critical of even those who we are in fundamental agreement with. I've literally met people and had people in congregations where they would continue to look for something until the found at least something to disagree with the leadership on just so this would be their justification of not following, working with, or joining the particular fellowship for the cause of the great commision (Matt. 28:18-20).

In this area concerning the doctrine of marriage (as with many other doctrines that are unfamiliar to people in the local assemblies) I think it is easy for some to get burned and kicked out of places and thus to become hard hearted, or so angry at those who do not see certain truths that they then show and model a spirit of anarchy.

And as we are discussing in this post, there are practical ramifications of us not supporting or being in harmony with those that God places over us whenever it is possible to do so (such as with the major doctrines of the Bible). Here are few of the practical ramifications that I see that can occur when in submission or when being a rebel/anarchist:

1. Sowing and reaping. If we sow in anarchy we will reap anarchy. If we sown in peace and submission we will reap peace and submissive disciples.

2. Respect: If husbands/fathers live with a rebellious, critical spirit, that seeks to first find faults with others we will produce people around us who are disrespectful, rebellious, and overly critical. If husbands & fathers show submission, humility, and they seek to be gracious with others then I think the family will be gracious, kind, and humble to him as a leader in the home.

3. Friendships: I think that is husbands and fathers show respect, honor, and a friendly atitude, even to those with whom they disagree with then this may lead to more friendships where truth can be instilled in the lives of more.

What other ramifications do others of you in here see if husbands and fathers show a submissive spirit and attitude towards godly leaders that God places in their path in life? How can a husband and father's respect and honor for authority bless the overall family?

Dr. Allen

 

[T-C's Rebeka]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

As a wife I think it is monumentously important. It is so easy to submit to a submissive husband. I don't have to worry because since he is submitting to God then I am really only submitting to God. Because I pray for my husband as the leader of the family to have a clear understanding from God then I don't have to be "in control". I gave it to God to make sure my husband does the "right thing". This is obviously a daily deal but it is so much easier with a submissive husband. If all christian men submitted to God fully there is no way a christian woman would ever have a problem submitting to her husband. Submission for women is a problem because we see men not submitting to God but submitting to what is Ungodly.

 

[CecilW]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

The head of the man is CHRIST, Dr. Keith. Paul, in his inspired mode, did NOT interject a human organization into that chain.

You got 3 threads going here, apparently trying to get at it one way or another, any way you can, to get us to agree that there needs to be a human governing body, made up of educated, "mature", spiritual men, etc. You've obviously got a strong agenda going here. Fine. That is your right.

Just as it is the right of others of us to be uninterested in that agenda.

We men are learning, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, to live in abject submission to Christ. He's our direct authority. Not a human governing body.

That, btw, is what we need to model for our wives. Heard of any marriages in trouble because the wife was ready to submit to the pastor, or her parents, or pretty much ANYone, EXCEPT her husband? We have!!!

Further, we men do talk with each other, asking advice, thinking it through, and applying it as it seems wise after (much) prayer. That is an appropriate submission.

Further, there is a governing body for this site, and those who get seriously out of line are shut down so far as participation here is concerned. The purpose of elders in the NT is to govern the organization of the church. We don't have a church here. Just this website, and we do have a governing body for it.

Of course, if you want to start a church, and staff it with a governing board of elders who have authority to sit in judgment and pass decrees over those who choose to become members of your church, you are perfectly welcome to do so. Have at it, and good luck. Let us know how it works out.

But while you are trying hard to drum up support for more human organization and authority, I'll quietly remind us men to keep on submitting more and more thoroughly to Jesus, as the example to our families. He's the one with whom we plan to spend Eternity!!!

 

[ylop]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

Practical benefits? Well it would demonstrate how easy it is to absolve oneself of responsibility for decision making and instead accept the directions of someone else. Ideal training for my children to become government workers, employees or maybe the military?

There seems to be this innate human urge to appoint someone else to be in authority over ourselves. 1 Samuel 8 comes to mind.

As for me and my house, I feel no urge to voluntarily submit to "godly leaders". I instruct my wife and children to think for themselves, and be very cautious of those in "authority".

Where do these "godly leaders" get their appointment from? Has a burning bush appeared to them?

One of the great attractions of a polygamous lifestyle for me is its strengthening of the family unit and corresponding weakening of dependence on other authorities, self-appointed or by force.

Dr Ylop

 

[Tlaloc]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

From where do you believe this authority to come? If its elected by people like bishops\deacons its important to heed them so long as they are following the mandate that elected them, the practitioners. If they claim authority from God then Christians need to be highly critical of them and apply discernment at its best. Frankly lack of criticism has lead to more loss for Christians than criticism has. Tricksters and health and wrath preachers abound. Christian leadership that devours widows houses.

So yeah, submission to God is paramount, but I doubt thats your intent. To be frank Keith, I believe you see yourself as the one with the right to lead and are looking for excuses to have contempt for those who would never follow you. For all the preaching on humility and submission I do not see those traits in you, at first it was a subtle lack and now a more apparent one. I doubt I need to say I agree with yolp and Cecils posts.


Its pretty easy to model Godly submission even outside an ecclesiastical structure. Showing simple faith and patience in tough situations, studying the bible and bringing the family together to change family policy if the Bible contradicts what we believed, heeding our peers and making use of their advice and experience, and showing respect for civil authority (weather we agree with them or not) are all powerful ways to model Godly submission.

Lets address you're three lines of rhetoric

1. We sow discernment, we reap truth. No matter what divisions, fractures, or disunity discernment leaves behind it is worth it for getting out bad doctrine and having a closer walk with God.

2. If Fathers and husbands show apathy for truth or are to timid to confront error they will reap apathetic children or be too weak to correct their children errors. If they show discipline to Know Gods word and will and the boldness to confront errors they will show children study is valuable and truth is more important comfort. They may also come to the happy point where their child can confront them and and help them learn more about God.

3. At least is good, if there is an agenda behind it I do not know what it could be.

I have brought divisions in churches, and I am at unity with my church. Both have a time and place.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

Ouch.

Hummmm....looks like there is a drift of thought and that this getting off topic into personal areas of judging motives.......so....going back to the topic of the thread...........

I was listening to a teacher today in a teaching/message and some other things crossed my mind about this issue of submission.

I was thinking back to the life of Christ in regard to his submission to authorities around him. I realized some things about him that really stood out. As men our goal is to be like Christ and to be conformed into his image.

First, in Luke 2:52 we find that Jesus Christ himself lived a submissive life to the people around him as he learned and grew in wisdom of both God and man.

Wow! Now that is powerful in my opinion. The text says: "And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man" This phrase about Christ increasing in wisdom and in stature with God and man shows us much about our Lord's life of humility. Here we have the God-man who takes the time to actually learn from those even though he already knows everything. Jesus grew in two distinct areas (1) in wisdom and favor with God; (2) in wisdom and favor with man. Here we have both disciplines of life covered (a) theo-centric; theological growth, and (b) anthropocentric; anthropological growth.

Jesus in other words, became popular with God the Father and with man in general. He learned perfection in both how to relate to man and to God. Part of his relational skills meant he knew when to submit and how much in order to get the gospel to the people around him.

The Greek word for increased means to make progress. Our Lord made progress in his very own growth where he increased with wisdom and stature (bodily growth).

This takes me to the teachings of Paul where he showed us the humility of Christ where he said that though "Jesus was in the form of God did not count himself equal to God as a thing to be grasped, but instead he made himself nothing taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Phil. 2:6-8).

Now that is powerful to hink about. And it gets better.

Second, Jesus' life of humility where he submitted to others was even the means by which God used to deliver the good news of salvation by the cross to the world.

Christ, who knew all and had all power as God, humbled himself to others and thus by doing so he died on the cross. It was by HIS VERY SUBMISSION to humans that we received salvation from the cross of Christ.

Jesus taught us that God had even given the evil people over Christ their authority and yet he humbled himself to them in order to do something greater and more important. In John 19:10-11 we find these words: "So Pilate said to him, 'You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release and authority to crucify you?' Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who has delivered me over to you has the greater sin."

Here was the Son of God, the King of the Universe, our Greatest Love and Leader, standing before a man about to commit the greatest sin in the history of the world, the crucifixion of the perfect sinless Lord, and yet Christ for the sake of loving others, for the sake of getting the gospel to others was willing to submit and allow himself to be persecuted for the sake of righteousness. He knew by suffering under psecution through his submission that the glory of God would be made known to others.

Third, from two other texts we see that this submission (at his youth and even at the time of his death) was planned by the Father and Son together. In John 10:18 Christ said, "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I received from my Father." And then in Acts 2:23 we find this powerful statement about God's plan. he Bible says: "this Jesus, delivered up according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men" (Acts 2:23).

A Trinitarian plan that came to fruition through Christ not only submitting to the Father, but also to others along his earthly life's journey. What an amazing picture of humility in action. By his humility as a man the gospel was given to the world.

So back to the practical question of how does it benefit the family when a man submits?

Well for one, it was modeled to us by Christ so that the love of God to the masses came to us through the earthly life of Christ's submission, even when it meant him being persecuted.

When a husband and father submits, and even when being unjustly persecuted sometimes like Christ was as well, it reveals a man who understands true authority. Those who understand authority (like Christ perfectly did) will also know how to truly submit to others. From my sociological or anthropological observatiojns it appears to me that those who despise authority and reject it are those who do not understand the real nature of authority. Authority is about being a good steward of what has been entrusted to you. This was why the disciples go into trouble for talking about who had to be first in the kingdom. Christ modeled something different. Christ modeled that a true authority figure will take time to be servant, a steward of that which has been entrusted to him by God or by others. Christ did not have to submit. He was God in flesh. No earthly authority could hurt him, take his life, or do anything to him. Yet, because he was mature, wise, holy, and on a higher mission to spread love in truth and grace he submitted himself unto even persecution, a persecution that even led to his own death which brought about a higher good for the whole world.

So one clear benefit I see is that when a man who is in authority learns to submit himself to even unjust authorities as Christ did, then if done for the sake of getting others truths (such as the love, grace, and glory of God) to the people involved then that submission in humility will be a blessing to others. Children in the home will see a husband who walks as did Christ, being a man who loves even his enemies. Also, the wife and children will see a man who is like Christ, in control of himself and able to suffer for the higher good. This shows the family that CHrist really is alive in that man as he is willing to submit, even if unjustly, in order to share the love and grace of Christ with those who are bound for hell and doom without Christ's love.

I think this was even the way the gospel spread to evil rulers in their civil domain. Peter told his disciples these words: "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people . . . . Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endurse sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps" (1 Peter 2:13-15, 18-21).

So in summary, if the husband or father learns to submit to the various authorities that God has placed around him (even if at times they are unjust) then he can be used of God like Christ was used of God. At the right time God exalted Christ to the highest of all places (Phil. 2:9) due to his perfect submission. Likewise, I believe from that model if we too all learn how to submit, even to those with whom we disagree with and think are unjust that in due time God will exalt us to where we spread the truth as he has so providentially determined.

Now that is some cool stuff. How God's way are sometimes so different than our ways. He says the way up is down, the way to authority is through submision and service, and the way to be honored is to be humbled. Though none of like persecution, sometimes it is the way and the route to the glory of God being manifested, which is the ultimate theme of God for his universe.

Dr. Allen

 

[Anonymous]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

But while you are trying hard to drum up support for more human organization and authority, I'll quietly remind us men to keep on submitting more and more thoroughly to Jesus, as the example to our families. He's the one with whom we plan to spend Eternity!!!

I'm not a man but I'm agreeing, anyway !
Well said, Cecil !
Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[Tlaloc]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

6. Do you seriously examine a critique someone has of you or your views or do I quickly dismiss their comments and points?
7. Do you hold all of my positions and views so strongly that you will not re-examine them when challenged?

Comments such as Marks, Cecils, Yolps, my own, and RevGills? I've read quite a number of points very topical to your posts that you no less than ignore when it isn't what you want to hear. You could correctly say that Cecil and my speculations to your motives are off topic and inappropriate, but the rest of it is very much on the topic of submission and headship. As of yet no one has despised authority, but gone rather deeper to what constitutes legitimate authority, even Yolp put quotation marks around the work authority in his post to indicate the question of legitimacy. Now, you asked a question you intended to answer yourself, that is a very strong mark of pride in addition to other things I've seen. If you have something you know about and want to create a post preaching on it its more tactful to just say it. Thats a didactic method, this is a forum of peers, not pupils.

Now, please note that posts of disagreement or criticism are not the same as posts which are off topic. You seem to be fond of crying off topic when a problem is pointed out to you, even if it is a problem related to the topic itself.

Now, your bolded quote does nothing whatsoever to address the objections. The command to submit to every ordinariness of man does not require us to submit to the laws of India when we are in North America, nor does it require us to submit to the authority of some guy claiming that he has authority without substantiating it. Everyone has thusfar affirmed submitting to legitimate authority, but generally denied that the mere existence of men who call themselves leaders and affirm the essentials of the faith and biblical marriage would in any way constitute legitimate authority much less give an obligation to submission.

Of course, you're didactic method attempted to avoid anyone questioning the premise, sorry, but you can't pull a fast one like that on most of us here.

 

[CecilW]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

Interesting points, bringing in Jesus' submission, Dr. Keith. But I wonder at the accuracy of the application.

Jesus routinely refused to submit to the instruction of the leading religious leaders of His day in matters such as Sabbath observance, divorce, healing, etc. Apparently He found it necessary to correct them rather than submit. He spoke as one having AUTHORITY, HIMSELF.

He told us to submit to persecution. He submitted to Torah. He submitted to death WHEN HIS OWN HEAD, GOD, TOLD HIM IT WAS TIME. Not before. Remember when the folks in Nazareth tried to throw him off a cliff for blasphemy?

Yes, Jesus submitted to His Head, the Father. To generalize that into a general submission to any ecclesiastical group claiming jurisdiction is pretty poor quality teaching, in my book. I don't care who you were listening to. If this is indeed what they were teaching, then I can't agree with them, and hope you will decide not to. Jesus modeled submitting to His head. We men need to model submitting to ours, Jesus.

Sadly, I have to agree with Tlaloc. It seems that you are presenting your questions in such a way that we're not supposed to question the pemise of your proposition. Any question as to the proposition's actual validity is met by either saying, "Let's get back on target", or by starting a new thread to try to get at the same thing a different way. Somehow, I don't see it working out so well for you, but you don't have to submit to my ideas any more than I have to submit to yours. Or is that the idea?

Btw, Dr Keith, when it comes to submitting, Jesus told his followers (that would be US, and especially us men), to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, and preach (specifically) that the kingdom of heaven had come near to the hearers. Are you being submissive to those four clauses? Or have you been submitting to the teaching of another body that the time for the literal obedience to those is past? As it happens, a number on this board take them seriously and submit their lives to practicing those wpecific activities. Interesting, huh? Though they're rather reluctant to follow your personal vision of how submission should work, I submit that they are indeed submissive to their legitimate head. (pun intended, however poor.)

 

[Tlaloc]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

Sadly, I have to agree with Tlaloc.

Sadly, I have to say it. But these are tactics I've had to address to many times dealing with corrupted authority. Sound good to garner support and dance around opposition.

Keith, we can be allies, you and I and you and many here, but you have to approach peers as peers and realize that to some extent the medium or method is the message.

Jesus told his followers (that would be US, and especially us men), to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, and preach (specifically) that the kingdom of heaven had come near to the hearers

I like this reminder Cecil, I so often get to preaching the resurrection and salvation that I neglect the kingdom of Heaven being at hand. Raising the dead is far out of my reach too, but thats another mater... It might not be too bad to have a discussion\testimony on what we do and what we want to do to follow this, as a kind of support group thing.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

Mr. Tlaloc,

I hope all is well with you. As I understand the purpose of the forums it is not a place for debate.

Discussion, yes, debate no. Besides, when people wind up in debate very often (but of course not always) people are out to defend and prove instead of seeking to learn and grow. And even worse, a lot of times people get hurt and upset when they see saints arguing and bickering in email (this is a public forum). Normally such things produce a lot of heat but not much substance or material that produces growth.

I hope you understand. It is not that I am ignoring you or that I do not enjoy discussing different ideas or points or perspective when people ask about something that has been said or posted.

If you have a specific question or a set of specific questions about something I have said or posted I'll be glad to discuss/dialog over that with you. Feel free to ask me any question you desire from any post or statement. If necessary if a new post or topic is needed to discuss the question or point that is fine as well. But I'm not going to argue back and forth and risk someone being injured or hurt. To me love is about building others up, and so often in chat rooms or forums people seem to loose the grace of common kindness. Good brothers and sisters leave frustrated and discouraged many times in those times where they read such things like that. The unity of the Spirit is a precious gift in the body of Christ. Debates and arguments can often grieve the bond and love of the Spirit among the saints. To me everything boils down to love.

Therefore, I tend to hardly ever debate matters unless it is face to face. For example, in 3rd John when there was a conflict John said he had much to say but preferred to say it in person. Normally live discussions go better than debate, arguments, etc., especially when in forums.

Also, if it is something that you think I am in sin over or something of the like then we would need to discuss that privately outside the forums (Matt. 18:15).

I do recall one qst or something from your last post that I'll briefly touch upon here. The issue is about legitimate authority.
The point of my posts, or the essential essence in this thread, has been to examine the brainstorm or consider the benefits of a man voluntarily submitting himself to godly authority. No saint in his or her right mind would willingly go submit himself to someone or something that is of the spirit of the anti-christ. Furthermore, if a man is not under a particular sphere of authority he does not need to submit to that sphere he is not within. Obviously, a man can't submit to Germany law and American law at the same time. But a man who chooses to be in some sphere where there is some form of authority then he should and must do all he can to try and submit to that authority or authorities that are over him. If submission is not fully possible the degree of respect towards that authority should still be there and a high level of it goes a long way.

If something I said in any of my posts made it sound otherwise then I apologize. I don't believe a man should submit to an authority that he is not under. Logically it can't be done. A man cannot submit to two counter authorities in the same way at the same time (the basic law of non-contradiction). However, I do believe and teach that a man should respect all forms of authority. A good example of that is with Satan himself. Jude makes it very clear about that when it says: "In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dae to bring a slanderous accusation against him but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand . . . ." (vs. 8-10a).I would never be so crass and rash to speak rudely about Satan. The Bible says he is evil but he is also an authority. And besides, that darn story about the Sons of Sceva scare me to death.......i'm not very happy about the idea of getting my but beat, and then even worse, being beat so bad that I am beat naked and left to run down the street whooped and naked!

We live in an age where people despise authority more so than ever in the history. Children shoot and kill parents because they are told to clean their rooms, sheep despise their elders/pastors because they don't think the elder has every doctrine exactly like it should be according to how they see the issue, saints spend more time arguing about secondary or tertiary doctrines instead of how to go forward on the things they do agree with, and students revile their teachers and display utter contempt. Such is the nature of sin.

In my personal walk with the Lord I try and find more of what I do agree with in someone or in a teaching or post than I do in differences. By doing that I have made many more friends in life and in the right time we normally talk about our differences along the way as we work in the common areas where we do agree. I find that people are encouraged more when I highlight something out of their teaching or view that I do agree with than when I constantly point out areas where I disagree (i too sometimes am overly critical so i have to work on that one as well). By doing that as a simple courtesy, an exercise of the fruit of the Spirit of kindness (Gal. 5:22), I can at select points later bring up questions or points where I might differ with the person and because they know I am not out to "bang them over the head" they are more open, free to discussion, and willing to examine the points of question I may have. Dialog and communication are more likely to occur then instead of debate, which rarely changes anyone's mind because of the presuppositions and biases that are brought into the matter.

But, notwithstanding that, I'll be glad to answer any question or set of questions you may have.

Grace to you brother. Talk to ya soon.

Dr. Allen

 

[Tlaloc]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

You are continuing the art of finely spiting hairs and paying semantic games to avoid discussion. Quite frankly you're rhetoric about engaging in discussion but not debate boils down ignoring disagreements or cautions. Debate is an element of discussion, and quite an important one it is where different points of views and objections can be considered. The site is not for endless debate, and if something has been done and all sides have given all their points a thread is to be ended or locked, but it is not a cult where differences cannot be discussed. Understanding differences in point of view allows you to understand a persons logos more clearly and thus understand their motives and needs. Its an element of really caring about someone, an element of brotherly love. Love is not building people up in a fluffy feel good everything is ok kind of way, but a matter of understanding and addressing real needs and motives.

I have said candidly that your actions are at variance with the ideals you preach. There is really nothing more to add.

How do you believe Jude applies? Was not the Devil given authority by God? There ought to be no question as to weather his authority is legitimate, it is derived directly from God. The same may be said for heads of States or Nations. Now, from where do you believe these hypothetical people who affirm the essentials of the faith and also affirm the correct doctrine of marriage would derive the right to be leaders. That is the question left. I submit that it would have to come from either God, and thus need to be subject to detailed scrutiny and discernment or Man and be subject to those under it. Either way it has to be carefully scrutinized. As I said before everyone has thusfar affirmed submitting to legitimate authority, but generally denied that the mere existence of men who call themselves leaders and affirm the essentials of the faith and biblical marriage would in any way constitute legitimate authority much less give an obligation to submission.

Now, to your secondary questions, if legitimate authority comes it is important to recognize it, but we have no prerogative to seek it out. We may have a great deal of fellowship without a 'chain of command'.

You may bemoan a lack of respect for authority, and I bemoan a lack of discernment by too many under authority. Like ylop said, its too easy for people to hand over their decision making and discernment responsibility. Parritonars will warm the pews while damnable heresy is preached and not rise up and oppose the sin. Entire denominations are falling accepting perverse sin. Health and wealth preachers pad their pocketbooks with the pensions and savings of elderly and widows. Such is the nature of deception.

We live in an age where people despise authority more so than ever in the history.

Because there are more people, it would also be true to say that we live in an age where more people blindly follow anti-Christ authority than ever in history.

You've got to have everything on balance,

 

[Seth]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

Apologizing in advance, I think my buddy sent me this link cuz I was suppose to tear into someone presumptious calling themself doctor or whatnot. Problem of course is I like everything that has been said before. I don't see where first doctor is off base. I like what other doctors and associates have said, but don't get if there is suppose to be real conflict concealed in first doc's viewpoint. Seems like legitimate question to me, seeking discussion. Sorry I can't jump on him with both feet for my friend Seek to submit, if you can't seek another path. Submit to the extent you can, model Jesus. I think you guys all said that. If first doc is writing something jerky between the lines that everyone else can see besides me, and your legit in riding him about it, sorry I missed it. If he's just voicing a legit concern he has because he struggles with it and wonders how others deal with the struggle......then guess we are all trigger happy...p.s. I hate authority more than all of yas and I got more education than anyone should have so I can call me doc also.....so what We all love, we all seek truth....some get close.....some take longer....good luck on the trip Ok back to being quiet, hitting on girls that are uninterested, being spooked by an awesome God that I don't understand , seeking a path that at times seems obscured, way too much uphill, and wondering why I do it and don't take an easier way out, *wave*

 

[Mark C]

Re: How Important is it for a Family Head to be in Submissio

First, in Luke 2:52 we find that Jesus Christ himself lived a submissive life to the people around him as he learned and grew in wisdom of both God and man.

You confuse the word "submissive" with SERVICE, Keith. Yahushua did NOT "submit" to the authority of the religious "leaders" (hypocrites, as He pointedly and repeatedly called them) of the day - and they killed Him for the challenge to their presumed 'authority'.

He understood concepts of jurisdiction and subjection (as to His earthly parents, while growing up, obviously, and in similar matters) but did not confuse the issue of Who He served, and "Him alone" (Luke 4:8).

He demonstrated leadership through service, and taught the point repeatedly, as Cecil noted.

There is a reason that He said that He "hates" the "doctrine of the Nicolaitans".