Hashing out the two first wives.

[PeteR]

As has been previously pointed out, God indeed portrays Himself on several occasions as having two brides. We have already mentioned the obvious Ezekiel 23, Jeremiah 3, and 31:34 references, but have you ever considered that the whole of Scripture is written in the context of God working to bring His two brides together into one echad house? ( Echad is a Hebrew word often translated as 'one' that more correctly means 'united.')

God doesn't state this overtly until the two references in Jeremiah, however, as soon as one sees the Jeremiah references, they should immediately have all of Scripture snap into focus from a slightly different paradigm. The fact that is doesn't is because of the envy and jealousy, the strike, between the two brides. Let me explain.

Ezekiel 23 articulates exactly who the two brides are, the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Both Christendom and Judaism have conflated those two terms assuming they both mean the same group of people, but they do not. The truth is, All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. This is a major, even foundational, point lost on 99% of all Jews and Christians. I will be so bold as to state that one cannot understand Scripture or correctly follow the progress of redemption without understanding God's purpose and actions for each of the two houses. What is especially fascinating to me, is that He uses the framework of polygyny to reveal Himself and His Ways.

Polygyny, as part of the story of Redemption for mankind, actually begins long before Ezekiel. It begins in Genesis 29!! Jacob, Leah and Rachel!! God's revelation of Himself, through Plural marriage begins in with Jacobs two sons, Judah and Joseph, born respectively to Leah and Rachel. It is from these two men that the leadership for the house of Judah (sons of Judah, later derisively simply called Jews) and the house of Israel (called variously Ephraim, house of Joseph, and house of Israel) springs.

Jacob, in an unusual move, divides the birthright and the blessing in Genesis 48 & 49 wherein he gives the double portion to Joseph through Ephraim (the younger) and Manasseh, while giving the birthright/rulership to Judah with the scepter. Jacob learned that lesson not only through his own parents, but through his wrestling with Esau, particularly in Genesis 32. To protect the house from Esau (aka Edom) and near certain destruction, he divided it!! See Genesis 32 & 33. It is very important from this point forward in Scripture to keep in mind the four mothers, Leah, Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah as well as which sons are connect to who. Scripture is laden with detail concerning who camped next to who, what tribe did this, that or the other. etc. We gloss over these details until we understand that this is a detailed account of the two brides wrestling for headship and control, contrary to their assigned duties.

There are rumblings of discontent and minor skirmishes between Joseph and Judah until Solomon. (The two houses begin to get named 'airtime' during the transition between King Saul and King David. Remember, David was King over Judah for seven years before the house of Israel came under his leadership?) Solomon, alternately a picture of the Messiah and the anti-messiah, (much detail to tease out there) plays the houses against each other and nearly enslaves the northern house of Israel while wildly enriching Jerusalem and the ruling class from the house of Judah. The result is that in I Kings 12 the kingdom is divided. Note particularly that the house of Israel rebels against the 'house of David' and that God says, (v.24) 'this thing is from Me.'

God separated the two brides that had been walking side by side as 'the whole house of Israel.' He had a purpose that was prophesied by Jacob in order to fulfill His promises to Abraham and bring redemption to all of Creation.

We read the history book and our eyes glaze over with names of kings, the things they did, etc, but we fail to understand why God includes all of this information. Yet, as soon as one understands the two houses are two brides we begin to understand that what we are reading is the drama that played out in the house of Jacob and why each of the two brides went their separate ways, house of Israel into adultery (idolatry) and the house of Judah into self absorption and attempted manipulation then rejection of the Husband.

Both brides belong in the house. Both brides have major issues. Neither wants to acknowledge the other, yet God loves them both with an everlasting love. He pursues both.

The house of Israel was scattered into the nations and Judah began to call them the 'lost tribes.' They were never lost, God kept up with the DNA as well as added to their numbers. Most wound up in Church pews thinking that God hates Jews and that they are more special than the sister that rejected the Messiah, but kept Torah, even if adding a bunch to what God originally gave.

The house of Judah wound up being dispersed and despised, though God made very specific promises to them to protect and bring them back to the land of Jacob.

Neither house, or Bride, wants to acknowledge the rightful place of the other. Replacement theology is the Christian means of eliminating the competition for the Husband, Noahidism and conversion to Judaism is the Jewish means of ignoring Joseph (Ephraim means doubly fruitful), the fruitful one in the nations. Hating the Husband, Yeshua, for pursuing the wayward wife is another way to express displeasure at God's polygyny and the rightful place of the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 37 tells us what God's plan is for restoring the house of Jacob. Verse 11 clearly says that the 'whole house of Israel', a term reserved for both houses, not just one, will be raised to dwell in His sight. Then in verses 15-19 we are clearly told that the son of man is to use two sticks, representing the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Joseph/Ephraim) and he is to 'draw them near.' (Most translations say 'join' but that is not what the Hebrew says.) God then states that He will make the two sticks, the two houses, echad:united in My hand.!!

Then, listen to these amazing verses:

21 Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.

The men on this board think molding two ladies to walk in peace is hard? God's been working on that for 4000 YEARS!! Ladies, you think you have troubles with each other in a plural home? The house of Judah and the house of Israel have been squabbling over petty stuff and not listening to the Husband for 4000 years!! The house of Israel has been kicked out for 2740 YEARS!!

The good news, God hasn't given up!! Even better news, the awakening in His people toward plural marriage is one of several indicators that this is the time of redemption and restoration. We are seeing in real time, experiencing in the physical,what He has had written in His Word for 2000 years! This journey you each are on has a much greater purpose than simply fulfilling some seeming innate desire to build a family. You are understanding the heart of God for HIS brides. and, you are seeing how very complex HIS task is for redemption. And, if you will open your eyes, you will see depths in Scripture the prophets only imagined as you physically walk out what He is doing on a grand scale in His people. He is restoring the two houses of Israel!!

Ezekiel finishes by painting a picture for the future. On the small scale, there are truths we can pull out about dwelling together in a plural home, living at peace with one set of house rules, accepting our brothers of Judah or the sister wife that is coming into the family, etc... The following verses are the future hope for God's people and it is the tale of a peaceful blessed plural house that walks in unity!!

24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”

Folks, Ezekiel 23 tells us the horrors of the two sister wives walking contrary to God. BUT, Ezekiel 37 spells out the blessings of coming together, accepting His statutes and ordinances and following the King, My servant David, the Good Shepherd. Judah is half right. Torah (not the oral, but the written of Moses) is the house rules... the very rules that Christendom rejects declaring they can understand the spiritual without physical obedience. Absurd. The house of Israel is half right. The Messiah is Yeshua, but He has rules... even statutes and ordinances.

Revelation tells us multiple times that the saints are those who 'keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua.' Both houses have to be on the same page. Both brides need to love the Husband and keep His commands. Both need to accept the other.

This has gotten terribly long, and I apologize, but it is the key to understanding Scripture and why God uses the two bride imagery to reveal Himself and His plan. It is supported by hundreds of passages. Once you see it in Scripture, it is everywhere!!

Remember, Isaiah 2:5? 'Come house of Jacob (both houses...) let us walk n the light of the Lord'? See the context and note it is in the last days and Torah is taught by Messiah from Mt. Zion.

If you would like to understand this topic more fully, consider Ten Parts in the King, The Prophesied Restoration of God's Two Witnesses. A full and detailed exposition of the two brides is explained from Scripture. The role of the Messiah and His plan of redemption, etc. It does not discuss plural marriage as that is a 'bridge too far' for the average reader. But, this is a mature audience that will clearly understand the subtext.

 

[FollowingHim]

That is well explained @PeteR.

Just teasing out an important detail: There is a dangerous heresy that is easy to slip into, and too many people do. This heresy is assuming that Talmudic Judaism is the valid religion of the house of Judah, and that to accept Judah Christians must accept Judaism as a valid religious perspective. Some ministries are going so far as to publicly declare they are stopping proselytizing to Jews. This is a dangerous heresy, because both houses need the Messiah.

In reality, Judah has Torah from God - but it is Judaism, (ie the layers of additional rules and interpretation that they have layered on top of Torah, in many cases post-Yeshua) that is where they have gone wrong. If they simply followed Torah, that would be one thing. But they do not simply follow Torah. Rather, they have fallen:

into self absorption and attempted manipulation then rejection of the Husband.

That self-absorption, and rejection of the Husband, is Talmudic Judaism. This is their heresy, not their acceptable worship.

Those who reject Messiah are cut off, they are not accepted despite their rejection. All must accept Him to be saved. However, this gives nobody cause to boast.

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The whole natural, biological house of Judah are not saved simply by birthright. Rather, those who do not follow Messiah are rejected - and Paul wishes to save "some of" them by bringing them back to God.

Just as not everyone from Ephraim is saved either simply by virtue of being a descendant of Israel, they must choose to follow Messiah also.

The rules for both are the same. PeteR stresses that Torah applies to both - I am stressing that acceptance of Messiah applies to both also. The two houses that are accepted, not cut off, are those people within those houses who follow Messiah. And in both cases this is a small remnant, and it is our job to share Messiah with those who have not yet found Him.

We should learn Torah from Judah - but not learn Judaism from Judah. Likewise, we must teach Messiah to Judah - but not teach Western Christian culture mislabelled as Christianity (e.g. monogamy).

 

[PeteR]

Thank you, @FollowingHim excellent clarification.

I have continued pondering the two houses/two brides much of today, particularly focusing on the magnitude of God's task and how poorly the two treat each other.

Based on @FollowingHim 's clarification, it is the remnant in each house that should be connecting with the other...

Are we learning practical lessons that help us walk in God's ways physically so we learn the bigger issues about the two kingdoms coming together andcdwelling at peace with our brothers?

 

[FollowingHim]

The world deliberately conflates the state of Israel, Judaism, and Judah. This allows the growing heart of many Christians for Judah to be deliberately exploited and misdirected to get people to financially support the state of Israel, sending donations from countries that are in deep debt to one that is debt-free, supposedly in order to support God's people but actually to prop up a state that rejects Messiah and where evangelism to Jews is actually illegal. This propping up the state of Israel ranges from supporting politicians who will send large sums of taxpayer money to Israel, to donating to charitable work there. Even social services provided by Christian charities mean less money needs to be spent by the government to provide the same services, thus all forms of assistance support a secular state that could easily afford to provide those services themselves but can instead leave people in hardship to provide sob-stories to draw in external funding.

One practical lesson is to be careful to understand where and how to invest our resources, to ensure they are used for the purposes of the Kingdom and not to support those who reject the King.

If we have a heart for the house of Judah, we must ensure our resources go towards evangelism and not to other purposes. If donating to work in Israel, our resources must go to those few Christian workers who have the boldness to break the law and evangelize there in secret, using the aid program simply as an excuse to get access.

 

[PeteR]

The world deliberately conflates the state of Israel, Judaism, and Judah. This allows the growing heart of many Christians for Judah to be deliberately exploited and misdirected to get people to financially support the state of Israel, sending donations from countries that are in deep debt to one that is debt-free, supposedly in order to support God's people but actually to prop up a state that rejects Messiah and where evangelism to Jews is actually illegal. This propping up the state of Israel ranges from supporting politicians who will send large sums of taxpayer money to Israel, to donating to charitable work there. Even social services provided by Christian charities mean less money needs to be spent by the government to provide the same services, thus all forms of assistance support a secular state that could easily afford to provide those services themselves but can instead leave people in hardship to provide sob-stories to draw in external funding.

One practical lesson is to be careful to understand where and how to invest our resources, to ensure they are used for the purposes of the Kingdom and not to support those who reject the King.

If we have a heart for the house of Judah, we must ensure our resources go towards evangelism and not to other purposes. If donating to work in Israel, our resources must go to those few Christian workers who have the boldness to break the law and evangelize there in secret, using the aid program simply as an excuse to get access.

I hear what you are saying, but in the context of this thread, the real question is, how does one bride treat the other? And, who is the party that is to correct the errant bride?

Think about it this way: If you have two wives, would you let one pass judgment on the other? Or, do you expect wife one to treat the second with love and respect, even if wife two is misbehaving? And, do you, the head of the house, assume all responsibility for discipline and fault finding?

Romans 14, in the context of a different issue, says, "3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

Yes, we should be careful and wise in how/where we invest, but we also, as sister wife, have zero authority to judge the other wife.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but if we view the relationship between Judaism and Christendom, assuming they are sister wives (I'm intentionally not ranking them) would we not expect the Husband to be the corrector, discipliner, etc? What then is the role of the sister wife? I tend to think in a plural family, the role would be to love, be an example, help, encourage, etc.... Seek to work together and leave the judging and fault finding to the husband.

Does our understanding of a plural dynamic change the way we think about Judah? Should it?

 

[FollowingHim]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but if we view the relationship between Judaism and Christendom, assuming they are sister wives

Judaism and Christendom are not the two houses. All who reject Messiah are cut off - Judaism rejects Messiah. As you said in your previous post, it is the remnant in each house who are the true bride.

If the Jews were one bride, then the other bride would be the entire 10 tribes, wherever they are - some would say all of Europe and the Western world, others would say differently. Regardless, this makes no sense. A godless European atheist is not part of the Bride just because of their ancestry - and nor is a secular Jew. A nominal 'Christian' who doesn't actually follow God, but who grew up in a church environment and believes God exists but does not accept Jesus personally is not part of the Bride - and nor is a religious Jew who likewise rejects Messiah.

The two brides are Messianic Jews, and non-Jewish Christians.

And they should not judge each other.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The two brides are Messianic Jews, and non-Jewish Christians.

And they should not judge each other.

That may be a false dichotomy. We are discussing this as if God the Father, or Christ his Son are limited to two wives.

I think its a more accurate statement to say that the first two are Messianic Judah and Messianic Israel. Both of them called and chosen by God.

And then you have the third wife. The one that God did not call, but did choose. Isaiah 65:1

 

[Cap]

I think the subject of the two wives of God is probably a central theme that God is trying to reveal in the disclosure of plural marriage for today. This is an important topic for those who are new to polygamy and even those who have been around for awhile. To try and understand how God has to deal with different personalities is central to us trying to understand each other. Marriage is a first level of understanding of relationships between each of us and between God. Polygamy, to me, is a higher understanding and an important one for us to get right to get along with each other and to see how God relates to us individually. The hard thing here for us husbands is to try and become a wife and see the world she has to live in. I think us understanding how God relates to His wives should help us understand how to relate to ours, whether we have one or more, doesn't matter. It really comes down to what it 's like to be a wife, because in the end we are all a wife of God, and we have to live with each other in that capacity.

I will try again. The only problem with this, to actually learn anything here we are going to have to come to some kind of acceptance of the differences in Torah and non Torah thought, with out getting bogged down in the disagreement on whether the Old Covenant Laws will actually be lived on a daily bases in the future. For the most part, I believe most of the Torah followers here are open minded and are willing to at least look outside the box. Doesn't mean they accept it, it just means they respect the opinion of others and are willing to look at it. Just as I think there are non Torah people here that are willing to look at the opinion of someone with a Torah view. All good and healthy in my opinion. Its the hard stance, dogmatic responses that cause problems, at least from where I see. So, @PeteR I would like to have this discussion about the two brides of God. Who they are and how He has to deal with each DIFFERENT personalities on a scriptural bases with out the perceived future fulfillment of some prophecy that never really turns out the way we think anyway. What the Son of God does when He returns is up to Him, we can not say for sure how he will exactly interact with us. I agree it will be come from his foundation, the Law, but how He decides to implement that Law, containing Grace and Mercy, on a daily bases will be up to Him. Let's leave that part out.

I align with @FollowingHim. I also think that @PeteR saying that we are dealing really with the remnant of each house is correct. I am confused though on the statement that @Pacman made about Torah followers being of the house of Israel.

I would say that Judaism is the man made religion of Judah and Christianity is the man made religion of Israel. In essence, Judah is lead by the Law, or mans interpretation of the Law (Judaism), and Israel is lead by Grace, or mans interpretation of what Grace (Christianity) is. There is a lot of truth in both, but there is also a lot of man made traditions. (I am not talking about the remnant of each.) Both are wrong because they are mans interpretations, and somehow through it all a remnant develops in both houses, those who follow the interpretations God puts forth. But this is all here on this earth, and somehow we have to accept each other's different views and get along here. We both serve God, but have different responsibilities.

I hear what you are saying, but in the context of this thread, the real question is, how does one bride treat the other? And, who is the party that is to correct the errant bride?

Think about it this way: If you have two wives, would you let one pass judgment on the other? Or, do you expect wife one to treat the second with love and respect, even if wife two is misbehaving? And, do you, the head of the house, assume all responsibility for discipline and fault finding?

Romans 14, in the context of a different issue, says, "3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

Yes, we should be careful and wise in how/where we invest, but we also, as sister wife, have zero authority to judge the other wife.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but if we view the relationship between Judaism and Christendom, assuming they are sister wives (I'm intentionally not ranking them) would we not expect the Husband to be the corrector, discipliner, etc? What then is the role of the sister wife? I tend to think in a plural family, the role would be to love, be an example, help, encourage, etc.... Seek to work together and leave the judging and fault finding to the husband.

Does our understanding of a plural dynamic change the way we think about Judah? Should it?

Your statements are confusing. One side you seem to be saying, who is to judge the other wife? Or, one wife should not judge another wife? And you advocate for both wives to get along. And, they only one who should be judging both wives based on their individual merits, is the husband, or God in this case. Maybe you think you are of the wife that is being mistreated by the other wife? But, on the other hand you seem to be bent on correcting the other wife, Israel or Judah, I'm not sure anymore..

But then you also say, "I hear what you are saying, but in the context of this thread, the real question is, how does one bride treat the other? And, who is the party that is to correct the errant bride? Think about it this way: If you have two wives, would you let one pass judgment on the other? Or, do you expect wife one to treat the second with love and respect, even if wife two is misbehaving? And, do you, the head of the house, assume all responsibility for discipline and fault finding?

Who is mistreating who? (please accept my questions in a general sense, not directed at you but in the overall grand scheme of things)

Who do you think you align with? Judah, Israel? God (as the husband)?

What is the correction that needs to be made?

Do you think you are being corrected by another wife?

(Remember, general questions, related to the grand scheme of things)

In my mind I am developing these thoughts in relationship to what I have heard from those husbands who do have multiple wives and from my own experience to what it actually takes to confront the different personalities of women trying learn to live in the same place. The only possible solutions is to try and understand how God does it, and for that we need to figure out how each of us views the other.

Note: The reason I used the word "you" in most of the questions is because I am not sure which house you think you align with. If I had known that I would have used that term instead.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Now this is turning into a great test case of how two wives, married to the same husband, attempt to work thru differences of opinion and understanding.

They may never end up on the same page, and each may have to settle that the husband may have given different instructions and responsibilities to the other, to be determined when he gets home.

I think this is gonna end up sidetracking this threads intended purpose though so if you guys wanna hash this out, let me know and I’ll copy the posts (instead of moving them) to a new thread.

 

[PeteR]

@Cap thank you very much for a well thought out, non-attacking post. Yes, great questions and I definitely want to answer.... You lay it out well and it is not offensive.

I look forward to answering, but need to knock out a couple things first. As an aside, (and, I am not yanking your chain...) most of those questions are answered in detail in my book, backed up by loads of Scripture. What I write here will be the condensed version, but I do look forward to hashing it out.

@Verifyveritas76 if you want to copy/start a dedicated thread for that purpose, just show me where it is at.

Thanks.

 

[Cap]

Look forward to it, but can we do one thing, forget about your book and start from scratch. I don't have a book but I do have a certain knowledge I will be drawing from. Your book is not changeable, but our knowledge is based on the things we learn and should be changeable if we find new information. If you are not willing to change your view, as you perceived it when you wrote your book, then there is no point. And of course, I need to accept that I may need to change. And since it is your book, it's not a reliable extra biblical resource to me. Your pointing out such and such on whatever pages is not going to mean anything to me.

Take your time, we are all busy with life.

 

[FollowingHim]

That may be a false dichotomy. We are discussing this as if God the Father, or Christ his Son are limited to two wives.

I think its a more accurate statement to say that the first two are Messianic Judah and Messianic Israel. Both of them called and chosen by God.

And then you have the third wife. The one that God did not call, but did choose. Isaiah 65:1

And then you add the fact that that "third wife" is grafted in to the first two, so isn't really separate at all (which one are they grafted into anyway? Or is it both?).
And the fact that everyone's interbred anyway and usually don't know their actual ancestry any more. Also, modern Jews track their ancestry down the female line, when scripturally inheritance goes down the male line, so it is probable that many people who think they are in Judah are not, while many people who think they are not actually are.
And nobody really knows if they're in the 10 tribes anyway.
If you try to get it precisely right, then it falls to pieces rapidly.

I see it as a useful illustration, because it is one God uses, but I don't try to grab onto it too tight because it's slippery and pops out of my hand when I do that.

God's ultimate purpose is to make us all one. There's no point trying too hard to draw lines of distinction solely so we can close them again. If the distinction already doesn't exist, that is a good thing.

But where lines of distinction do presently exist (e.g. between Messianic and non-Messianic believers in terms of cultural practices and peripheral theological issues), we can use this illustration to show us not to have animosity towards each other, but to accept the other as we are all being drawn together to God.

 

[Cap]

And then you add the fact that that "third wife" is grafted in to the first two, so isn't really separate at all (which one are they grafted into anyway? Or is it both?).
And the fact that everyone's interbred anyway and usually don't know their actual ancestry any more. Also, modern Jews track their ancestry down the female line, when scripturally inheritance goes down the male line, so it is probable that many people who think they are in Judah are not, while many people who think they are not actually are.
And nobody really knows if they're in the 10 tribes anyway.
If you try to get it precisely right, then it falls to pieces rapidly.

I see it as a useful illustration, because it is one God uses, but I don't try to grab onto it too tight because it's slippery and pops out of my hand when I do that.

God's ultimate purpose is to make us all one. There's no point trying too hard to draw lines of distinction solely so we can close them again. If the distinction already doesn't exist, that is a good thing.

But where lines of distinction do presently exist (e.g. between Messianic and non-Messianic believers in terms of cultural practices and peripheral theological issues), we can use this illustration to show us not to have animosity towards each other, but to accept the other as we are all being drawn together to God.

The part of the 'third wife' or Isaiah 65:1 is really interesting because what it really is saying is that when God put away Israel and eventually Judah, the coming together in the Book of Revelations is that third wife, the Bride of Christ, but it's, as you say, the combination of both the house of Judah and the house of Israel. So, technically in the millennium, God will have only one wife.

 

[Cap]

And then you add the fact that that "third wife" is grafted in to the first two, so isn't really separate at all (which one are they grafted into anyway? Or is it both?).
And the fact that everyone's interbred anyway and usually don't know their actual ancestry any more. Also, modern Jews track their ancestry down the female line, when scripturally inheritance goes down the male line, so it is probable that many people who think they are in Judah are not, while many people who think they are not actually are.
And nobody really knows if they're in the 10 tribes anyway.
If you try to get it precisely right, then it falls to pieces rapidly.

I see it as a useful illustration, because it is one God uses, but I don't try to grab onto it too tight because it's slippery and pops out of my hand when I do that.

God's ultimate purpose is to make us all one. There's no point trying too hard to draw lines of distinction solely so we can close them again. If the distinction already doesn't exist, that is a good thing.

But where lines of distinction do presently exist (e.g. between Messianic and non-Messianic believers in terms of cultural practices and peripheral theological issues), we can use this illustration to show us not to have animosity towards each other, but to accept the other as we are all being drawn together to God.

The part of the 'third wife' or Isaiah 65:1 is really interesting because what it really is saying is that when God put away Israel and eventually Judah, the coming together in the Book of Revelations is that third wife, the Bride of Christ, but it's, as you say, the combination of both the house of Judah and the house of Israel. So, technically in the millennium, God will have only one wife.

 

[PeteR]

Because this is such an exciting topic, and yes, I do lay awake at night putting pieces together, I had to bypass other things to put some thoughts here. Best to start with some definitions and boundaries to my thought processes and conclusions.

Some of my basic rules:

• God doesn't change. His Word reveals Him, therefore, His Word doesn't change.
• God doesn't play tricks with word definitions or changing meaning from the beginning of the book to the end. I.e., definitions are consistent. Promises to Abraham or to Jacob do not get transferred or coopted. (Hold this with an open hand.)
• Yeshua said that not a single letter will pass from the Law and the prophets until heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and earth are still here, therefore, not one single letter has passed away or can be ignored. (See Matthew 5:18)
• Prophesy will be fulfilled in a very literal physical way. Spiritualizing prophesy creates error because we can pigeon hole anything into a spiritualized explanation. Countless 'fulfillments' have been proven wrong because people tried to spiritualize it only to later find they were wrong.
• Just because I (or, we) don't understand a prophecy doesn't mean it ain't gonna happen. It just means we haven't found the solution yet to how it fits or how it will be fulfilled.
• Scripture must define Scripture.
• The Bible is one book, not two. The Apostles, including Paul, rooted everything in the five books of Moses. Their understanding of the eschaton is rooted in Torah and the prophets. They had no 'new' testament. Everything they explained came straight out of the Tanak, or 'old' testament. (To be clear, the terms 'old' and 'new' 'testament' are made up terms intended to divide the book, but that is a false presupposition.) Acts 17:10-11 Bereans is an example.
• God's definition of 'righteousness' does not change from age to age. Therefore, what was righteous 4000 years ago is still righteous, what was unrighteous 4000 years ago is still unrightoeus.

Now, a few basic definitions:

• Revelation tells us over and over that the Saints are those who 'keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua.
• The Commandments of God are those things HE (or Yeshua) gave on Mt Sinai. They are not manmade additions, be they rabbinic or christendom.
• The 'New' Covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Nobody else...
• Scripture consistently defines the house of Judah as Judah, Levi, Benjamin, and Simeon and those 'attached' to them... (grafted in?) Generally, these would be regarded today as 'Jews' which I'll support with evidence from Scripture.
• Scripture consistently defines the house of Israel as Reuben, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, and Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) as well as those 'attached' to them... (grafted in?) Generally, these are regarded as the 'lost tribes' but God never lost them... They are mostly embedded in the church, worldwide. This I will have to demonstrate from Scripture.
• Yeshua/Jesus is visible as the primary One who interacts with the patriarchs and with Israel throughout Scripture. He is visible in countless ways. Study the 'appeared' to passages, the 'Angel of the Lord' passages, the Targumim uses of 'Memra de Yeya' meaning 'Word of the Lord' in Aramaic. I can point you to articles on each of these for a better understanding of where I am coming from.
• All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. I.e., the house of Israel and house of Judah are two separate entities intentionally used by God for specific purposes, clearly articulated in Scripture. (More later.)

Judah was born to Leah, Joseph was born to Rachel. The kingship, or headship for each house, came from those two.

Jacob learned a lesson in Genesis 32 and 33. To protect his family, his 'house,' and safely ferry them past Esau as they came into the Land, he divided the family. It is a prophetic picture that is later set into motion for the entire course of history when on his death bed. In Genesis 48 he gives the double portion and the family name, Israel, to Joseph by adopting Ephraim and Manasseh. Further, in v. 19 he specifically prophesied that Ephraim would be a multitude of nations. As the kingly tribe of the future house of Israel, also called Ephraim, the scattering of the northern kingdom will fulfill this prophecy. Jacob gives the scepter and headship to Judah in Genesis 49. (Notice, for those that think this has been fulfilled, Genesis 49:1 specifically points to the latter days in the Hebrew...)

Skipping lots of prophecy and details that substantiate... we'll jump forward to the most important chapter in Scripture. The hinge upon which all of history swings is 1 Kings 12!!

This is a critical passage to wrestle with. This is the point at which the Kingdom is divided. Many major details here that affect everything.

• Solomon had abused his position and nearly enslaved the northern tribes. Heavy taxation, heavy labor forces as well as having given up 153,000 gerim who were farm labor had taken their toll.
• Rehoboam prophetically tells the elders of the northern kingdom, return to me in three days... and I'll give my decision. v.5 &12. (Keep Hosea 6:2 in mind)
• When the house of Israel rebels, it is against the house of David!! (Remember the Son of David?) See v. 16 and 19!!
• Jeroboam prepared to go to war, but Shemaiah came with the word of the Lord, 'This thing is from Me!' GOD divided the houses. See v. 15 and 24.
• Jeroboam immediately led Israel away from Jerusalem. He changed the place, time and form of the feasts and added a false representation of God. His stated purpose was to 'prevent the hearts of the people from returning to Jerusalem.' See vss. 25-33. This is a perfect picture of Christendom's willful changing of God's ways, feasts, etc to drive a wedge between themselves and Jerusalem. This is the rebellion of the house of Israel.

But WHY??

God had a specific purpose for dividing the house. Each half has a specific purpose in order to bring the entire family through history and back into the Land.

The House of Israel fell into gross idolatry and was divorced by God (Jeremiah 3) and then scattered to the four winds. Doing so took the seed of Abraham to the ends of the earth, but also demonstrated God's judgment. He said, not if, but 'When you do all these things and are scattered into all the nations...' Read Deuteronomy 30:1-6 very carefully... Besides demonstrating His judgment and scattering the seed, the house of Israel was specifically purposed for Him to demonstrate His grace through the Bridegroom that died and was raised (Deuteronomy 24:1-4; Romans 7:1-6) thus taking the name of Yeshua to the ends of the earth.

The House of Judah also fell. Scripture says that she acted more abominably, but God demonstrated His mercy on Judah, used them to preserve the line of David, bring forth Yeshua and carry the 'oracles of God' through history. Further, they have been a small, but ever visible manifestation of God's promises to Abraham and Jacob.

More in the next post... Patience. Please let me lay this all out.

And, a side note, I am covering lots of ground and much research and Scripture very quickly. I can explain or support claims where things are unclear. Just ask.

 

[Cap]

It would be beneficial if you wouldn't dump a lot of information, which I am wondering if you are copy/pasting from you book. Putting a lot of information out makes it difficult to respond.

I agree with most of what you wrote. Key differences,

The five books of Moses is a part of the whole inspired book of the Bible. There are two different testaments, but they are a part of the whole plan or God.

The commandments of God are all of the commandmets in the old testament and the new, and the leading of the Holy Spirit today.

Jacob gives Judah the septer and Joseph the birthright, not sure if you are calling that the double portion.

Jerusalem is eventually destroyed and is never too be rebuilt again.

I know you, and others probably have issues with my statements, just as I have with yours So, one step at a time.

Remember, we could be right, or wrong, or just different. What we don't want to be is wrong, but it's ok to be right and different.

 

[Cap]

For clarity, what house do consider you are aligned with? It would be beneficial to understand your starting point.

I consider myself to be a part of Israel.

 

[PeteR]

We should consider the 'New' Covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-34, in a chapter about the restoration of Ephraim, the house of Israel, God says the new covenant will be with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. No one else is named here. Members of the new covenant will be one or the other... Judah or Israel. Christendom has heartburn when this is pointed out because they do not understand who they are. More importantly, the new covenant will write Torah on their hearts and they will not need to tell neighbor or brother 'know the Lord, for they will all know the Lord.' Well, this hasn't happened yet as the signs of its fulfillment clearly indicate. Christendom has heartburn with this as well! Most sputter 'new testament' or 'Hebrews'... then they need to read Hebrews 8:8-13 very slowly. It is the longest citation from the Tanak anywhere in the Apostolic writings.

What very few ever do is read the verses in Jeremiah that come after the new covenant. Jeremiah 31:35-37 clearly articulate that unless you can remove the sun, moon, and stars, the offspring of Israel (Jacob) will never cease to exist. Both houses are wrapped up in this.

But, they are divided, right? at war? Battling over who is the rightful heir to the promises.... Replacement theology claims the sole possession for Christians. Orthodox Judaism claims the sole possession for themselves and want to subject the world to Noahidism. God's Word does not support either claim!

Hosea, maybe more than any prophet, clearly articulates the sins of Ephraim and Judah, but in chapters 1, 2 and 14 the tender voice of God to Ephraim, the 'lost tribes' and to Judah is that HE will restore and regather.

Ezekiel 37 in amazing fashion details the restoration, gathering and uniting the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the hand of 'My servant David' (Yeshua) and He will bring them 'into the land that I gave to Jacob' and cause them to 'walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes' … forever! And, 'I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forever...'

The restoration of the whole house of Israel, both Judah and Israel is more attested in prophecy than even the Messiah!! And, Yeshua/Jesus said in Acts 1 that they didn't need to know the timing of the restoration of the kingdom, they just needed to go where the citizens were... Capitol cities of Jerusalem and Samaria and the places where the citizens were, Judea and the uttermost parts of the earth.

Paul told us that he understood the mystery of the Gospel. He and the Apostles understood! That's why they wrote to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, that's why they quoted Deuteronomy 30, Jeremiah 31, Hosea 1, Amos 9, etc... These are all prophecies about the restoration of kol Israel, all Israel.

Paul tells us in Romans 11:25-27 that a 'partial hardening happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in so all Israel will be saved.. Delivered from Zion, ungodliness removed from Jacob, the covenant is to take away sins...' This is an amazing sequence of verses!!

• the partial hardening happened to all Israel. Jews can't see Yeshua, house of Israel can't see Torah (God's definition of unrightoeusness.)
• the 'fullness/multitude of the Gentiles/nations' is a direct reference to Genesis 48:19... 'melo hagoyim!'
• the ungodliness is removed from Jacob, both houses.
• the covenant that takes away their sins is Jer. 31:33, 34. Torah is written on their hearts.

Here's the point, all of prophecy points to the restoration of the whole house of Israel, all twelve tribes. Maybe we are physical descendants (highly probable as well as the seed was scattered) or we are grafted in (just fine with me), but either way, we are in one of the two houses, numbering as the sand of the seashore promised to Abraham.

How does this relate to the brides?

• They each want the house to themselves
• They each want the Husband to themselves
• They act in envy, jealousy, etc
• Both torment the other.
• Both think their way is right.
• Both have a relationship with the Messiah, though both are imperfect... (Hint: if Yeshua is the Living Word and the Word made flesh, then what is the Written Word? Hmmm... )
• In truth, each has only half of the picture.

God's solution, as prophesied: A CRUCIBLE called 'the time of Jacob's troubles. He is going to put us into the crucible of the Great Tribulation.... Prophecy also spells out details for that called the Second Exodus... See Jeremiah 16:11-17 and Ezekiel 20:30-44. Who is He talking to? When does this happen? Where is He taking them?

There is so, so much more, but this is the ClifNotes for a crash course in Biblical prophecy.

 

[rockfox]

There is so, so much more, but this is the ClifNotes for a crash course in Biblical prophecy.

How does this affect interpretation of the book of Revelations?

 

[PeteR]

It would be beneficial if you wouldn't dump a lot of information, which I am wondering if you are copy/pasting from you book. Putting a lot of information out makes it difficult to respond.

I copy and pasted nothing. That is me with my Bible... But, I have written about 1000 pages on the subject, so it flows pretty easily.

There are two different testaments,

That is a man made division. Same for chapter and verse intrusions as well as the terrible headings that often plan false ideas in our heads before reading a passage.

The commandments of God are all of the commandments in the old testament and the new, and the leading of the Holy Spirit today.

I do have a problem with the way you state this. The books of Moses are the foundation. Everything must flow from the foundation. Pretty much everything in the new testament has a Torah foundation and we must understand it from that POV. And, while the Holy Spirit can give me direction and guidance, He will never lead contrary to the written Word, particularly that which was spoken to Moses.

Jacob gives Judah the scepter and Joseph the birthright, not sure if you are calling that the double portion.

Yes, Joseph got the family name (Gen. 48:16) and two tribes. Ephraim and Manasseh.

Jerusalem is eventually destroyed and is never too be rebuilt again.

I don't think Scripture supports this. Isaiah 2:3; 49:14-26; 52:1-12; 54, 60 etc... Too many passages to name that declare the future glory at the time of the Messiah. Later, as I'm sure you will agree, there will be a New Jerusalem whose gates are named after the twelve tribes...