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Gluttony

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welltan

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Food gluttony...Proverbs 23:20-21 "Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags."

Obesity is the greatest preventable cause of death in the world. Should eating be a freedom without responsibility? Is it a sin or a vice? Most people make lasting first impressions quickly. Is it wrong to think someone is overweight when they are (not a trick question)? Is the ability to have self-control in eating a trait that we should seek for ourselves, spouses or potential spouses? Is gluttony genetic? Can it be passed on to children or learned? How does gluttony affect relationships?
 
I was going to agree and thought you where clean cut right on this, but it seems like the roots are more complex than just overeating. It seems to be referring to someone who is a partier and lives wildly more than someone who overeats. There is a direct translation for gluttony in the new testament, but its only used in the context of discussion, and Christ sticks up for his eating and drinking ways.

I'd prefer strength and health, but it seems overeating is more a subjective error than a stated sin.
 
Good topic, Welltan. We don't hear much preaching on this topic. My two cents worth includes the motive for our national crisis. Our focus is on this world, pleasure and the lack of our ability to control our adverse environment. It is easy to give pleasure to ourselves with food. It is easy to do, brings a measure of satisfaction (think chocolate) and seems socially acceptable. I believe that there is a better way to deal with emotional and social stress, but it is not easy to be other-worldly minded and to keep our body under the control of our spirit and soul.
 
Tlaloc said:
Christ sticks up for his eating and drinking ways.
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Christ did eat and drink, but that would seem to involve the freedom to do it and what to eat and drink. It would be difficult to use Christ to support an argument for gluttony or to show that Christ supported lack of control in any area.

The body stores not just energy reserves in fatty tissue, it stores carcinogens and about anything else it does not know what to do with. Gluttony goes beyond just overeating and gaining weight. The result invites early death and some sources say fatty tissue actually store poisons. I have read that the human body stores many bad things in fat, but pork fat when consumed by a human is not changed into human fat. It is stored in the human body unchanged as pork fat. If true, that sounds so unappealling and unclean. Not being judgmental and freedom is one thing, but there is more going on here.

If our bodys are the temples of the Holy Spirit and the love object of our spouses, shouldn't we go the extra mile on what we don't bring to the union. I think that gluttony is indeed a sin.
 
There was a debate about whether or not restaurants and other private owned places used by the public should be required by law to make larger seats, etc., to accommodate disabled people who are overweight. Really fat people would sue when they can not fit in restaurants booths (chairs) and are deprived the ability to get fatter. Only communists and other reprobate governments would force a business to spend their own money for fatty chairs, it is their property it would be stealing to force them to buy fatty chairs.

This was a really silly debate but our professor, also insisted there was no biological difference between men and women, in other words she was intentionally oblivious of reality in order to promote sin.

There was a man who was very overweight in our class who was angry, not sinfully but righteously. This man used to be greatly overfat and he said something like people can choose to lose weight like he did and it is their own fault and it does not take much education or money to choose to lose fat.

All of us even those who did not participate in the debate were required to write comments on an online website for class.

I basically stated that it is natural law that if you eat more calories than you expend you will gain weight. Those who notice themselves gaining fat-weight and continue to ignore this natural law, face the consequences of natural justice. That is choosing to violate laws of nature they force themselves to become obese.

I did not even need to use the phrase God's permissive wrath giving them over to things against nature, because it was so obvious even without the word God used even one time in my explanation.

By the way I am not saying this out of bigoted ignorance, my undergraduate degree was in exercise. Very rarely is obesity "caused" by a genetic condition and even when there is a genetic condition people can simply choose to eat less and they still should not be 500 pounds overfat.

I am simply referring to people who are hundreds of pounds overfat, not just short tens of pounds over societies unrealistic standards, someone maybe even 50 pounds past societies unrealistic standard and be fine.
 
It is okay to refuse to marry someone when they are overfat not because they are unattractive but because their overfat, is a symptom of the sin of gluttony.

Often people who use God's grace as an excuse to be obese have reprobate minds.

I would not want to marry someone who eats lots of unhealthy food like deep fried candy bars and so on and will not eat fruits and vegetables, we simply would be incompatible, in lifestyle and could not get along.

Now on the other hand someone who has recently repented will not always lose hundreds of pounds of fat in twenty four hours.
 
BMI is not a legitimate measurement of health.

It is obvious that weight = average density * volume

muscle has a greater density than fat also water and bone minerals take up weight.

So if you really think about it logically BMI has absolutely nothing to do with health, because it does not measure percent body fat.

Also weight has absolutely nothing to do with health as well it is percent body fat that matters.

People are not overweight they are overfat.
 
Nice story Discussing,

I love the 'communists and reprobate' line. Genetic excuses for behavior are always dubious.


BMI is a nightmare, using it even dropped my respect for Nintendo in the last few years. My BMI is much worse since I've built muscle in the last few years than it was when I was paralyzed and naturally was much less fit. Accurate BMI is terrible for the reasons you stated, but worse is hight\weight raw BMI, which is even more inaccurate due to different builds.

% Body fat is a good measurement, I think the only reason its not in use as much is because it is a lot more work to test. I agree its not overweight but overfat.
 
Tlaloc said:
Nice story Discussing,

I love the 'communists and reprobate' line. Genetic excuses for behavior are always dubious.
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Someone may have a very very very strong genetic predisposition to obesity, from a low metabolism or other metabolic disorder.

But if someone was actually able to gain weight without eating, that would have tapped into an amazing power supply (and could be used for great technological and scientific breakthroughs (I am not suggesting unethical human experiments!)) if you think about the biochemical aspects. Because people normally expend more than zero calories per day and do not produce calories other than by eating. Whatever positive number of calories per day the person expends they can just eat less than that and they will not gain (muscle+fat) weight.

I mean none of this in offense to obese people.

If someone has such a serious condition to be 500 pounds overfat they should not be strolling around watching ball games, and eating at restaurants but seeking serious medical attention and getting special nutrition for there health. I mean this with all due respect to protect overfat people.

In regards to genetic pre-disposition to being hungry in many cases they must simply learn self control even if they get hungry more easily than other people. And it would be cruel to violate someone with a genetic predisposition to alcohol by giving them special access to bars. Those with a genetic pre-disposition to eating should be protected from tempting situations not given special funds to access it.
 
Please be kind. Overfat people have feelings too. Yes people overindulge, but there are people out there that have real problems with food. If you can find compassion for those people who are addicted to drugs, alcohol and cigarettes, then please find compassion for those of us with food addictions.

Yes, we all need to strive to be healthy, exercise regularly and eat healthy diets. But for some of us it takes encouragment and leadership, not criticism and pointing out our sin.

I know that when I was overweight (160 extra pounds) I did not need one more person pointing their finger at me telling me I was fat. It was not a secret. The kindest thing that anyone could ever do for an overfat person is to take them by the hand (as much as possible) and walk with them around the block and encourage them to make healthy choices while making those same healthy choices. The worst thing anyone can do is tell an overfat person to eat a salad with no dressing as they scoop out another bite of ice cream.

It is actually harder to deal with a food addiction than it is to deal with alcohol, drugs or cigarettes. You can live without all of those vices, but one must eat to survive. It is difficult for some people to stop once they have started. There are other people who have always been able to eat anything they want but later in life their bodies change and make it difficult to change life-long habits.
 
sweetlissa said:
Please be kind. Overfat people have feelings too. Yes people overindulge, but there are people out there that have real problems with food. If you can find compassion for those people who are addicted to drugs, alcohol and cigarettes, then please find compassion for those of us with food addictions.
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Lissa...I too have struggled with an eating disorder. I would like to thank you for your compassion. I wish others would educate themselves about eating disorders so they can have a better understanding of the subject. :roll:
Blessings,
Fairlight
 
As for the question of whether a man can refuse to marry a woman who is "overfat", the reality is that many men will not even look at a fat woman. And many men are fat as well. They can marry or not marry whomever they choose. But the reality is that most of us were raised on a fast-food diet and most of us didn't learn to eat the right way. I never had fresh fruit or vegetables growing up. I was raised on meat, potatoes, canned veggies and the "clean plate club" mentality. I was also raised in a world that never said anything approving to me. No cookie ever called me a failure and no brownie ever refused to be my friend. They tasted good and made me feel good inside. To this day I have a love/hate relationship with sweets. I love them but they make me ill for about an hour after I indulge.

Another reality is that while you can refuse to marry someone who is overfat, it isn't permissable to divorce a person because she/he gained weight. As a husband, you should really begin leading your wife in a healthy lifestyle. That means you need to lead her in giving up fattening foods and incorporating exercise into your daily life. As heads of the home, you men have the responsibility to set these things in motion.

Most important is to make sure your spouse knows how it affects you. Lovingly and non-threateningly tell your spouse what changes you want to make and why. Make sure that she/he has the tools that are needed to ensure success and then continue to love her/him through the trials. Be sure not to point your finger at her/him when he/she succumbs to pressure. Always encourage.

Unless you want someone to point their finger at you the next time you fail. I absolutely believe that we can all overcome these weaknesses, but we need help getting there. Just like addicts may need sponsors to assist them in making the transition to normal life, overweight people need folks that we can trust to help us through our journey.
 
sweetlissa said:
To this day I have a love/hate relationship with sweets. I love them but they make me ill for about an hour after I indulge.
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I agree with your statement. However, too few people realize that when the the word "sweets" is used it may help in the focus to use the word "sin". Establishing and continual identification that it is a "sin" is important. Otherwise, instances and times pop up when it is not a sin and well, if it's not a sin right now then "what the heck" thank God for free refills. Growing a righteous revulsion to sin is easier than a revulsion to sweets. Sadly all sin seems sweet for a season.

As a husband, you should really begin leading your wife in a healthy lifestyle. That means you need to lead her in giving up fattening foods and incorporating exercise into your daily life. As heads of the home, you men have the responsibility to set these things in motion.
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A person can be led to a treadmill but only a change in the heart that is going to have to pump so hard will make one use the treadmill. However, if a spouse (either gender) makes it a sin issue than the authority rests with which spouse is seeking holiness and the removal of the gluttony and if so then I agree that as the head of the home the man should do as you mention. However, if the gender is switched then the woman inherits the authority in seeking holiness and she can lead (by Holy Spirit power) the man into a healthier life-syle also. if a spouse (man or women) is teachable then it will help. I would suspect that the lack of control over sin has rejected many "leadings" from family, doctors, books, etc. If we were easily led out of sin, Christ could have just walked the streets of Jerusalem and the crowds following him would have been led out of sin. But we need what Christ did on the cross for our sins. Briefly, gluttony needs atoned for on the cross and victory over sin realized.

Most important is to make sure your spouse knows how it affects you. Lovingly and non-threateningly tell your spouse what changes you want to make and why. Make sure that she/he has the tools that are needed to ensure success and then continue to love her/him through the trials. Be sure not to point your finger at her/him when he/she succumbs to pressure. Always encourage.
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I might add that if a spouse is "non-threatening" in the way they relate in other areas of the relationship, then hopefully their comments will also be well received by the other spouse. If a spouse is perceived as "threatening" mainly in the area of gluttony then it is the voice of the addiction being threatened that is being heard.

I absolutely believe that we can all overcome these weaknesses, but we need help getting there. Just like addicts may need sponsors to assist them in making the transition to normal life, overweight people need folks that we can trust to help us through our journey.
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One of these helpers, facilitators, friends, spouses, therapists, authors, etc. is going to need to bring the power of Christ.
 
I agree with all of your points. I simply wanted people to understand that it is much more effective to walk the road with a person than it is to point a finger at them and say "you are in sin." I know that is not what your intention was, but I know how you guys can eat and never gain an ounce. I don't have that luxury and it is a whole lot more fun to exercise with someone than it is to do it alone. It is also a lot easier to learn to eat better and cook better if there is someone to talk about it and plan with.
 
Of course. And there is nothing against being addicted to the sweetness we find in our Christian brothers and sisters. They don't call you sweetlissa for nothing, Hugs to you and all in your home.
 
sweetlissa said:


Another reality is that while you can refuse to marry someone who is overfat, it isn't permissable to divorce a person because she/he gained weight. As a husband, you should really begin leading your wife in a healthy lifestyle. That means you need to lead her in giving up fattening foods and incorporating exercise into your daily life. As heads of the home, you men have the responsibility to set these things in motion.
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The reason I would not marry someone like that is not PRIMARILY because of the fat making them physically unattractive, but that I would have trouble getting along with someone who insists on making bad food choices, persistently. And who refuses help even when offered. If the person was willing to change their habits I might consider marrying them, under specific circumstances.

I would not marry anyone who smokes either. Of course I get physically sick when people smoke a lot around me.
 
I do not see how stating the fact that how much fat, you gain or lose seems to follow fairly mathematically predictable models, just as much as how much energy can be produced in chemical reactions, is making fun of people.....

Anymore than saying how many miles per gallon a car gets is making fun of cars or car drivers.....

And coming to the conclusion that someone who had the money and passed 5 gas stations when they only had 5 miles of fuel left, generally should have considered the laws of gas mileage. And it may be there own fault, if they are now stranded. This is not with the goal of preventing compassion, but with the goal of helping people not to make mistakes, or to correct mistakes.

I would be perfectly willing to explain the mathematical model so that the person can choose to lose weight, if they really need help. But most people already know how it works.

Giving into a temptation is sin. And there is no temptation which someone must give into.

A smoker never has to choose to smoke. An adulterer never has to choose to commit adultery. And so on.

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
1 corinthians 10:13 NIV

I am not singling out obese people.
 
People have feelings, cars do not. All the mathematical equations in the world will not convince someone. As someone has lost a lot of weight and is currently struggling with not putting it back on, I can tell you that this is no mathematical equation. This is heart, soul and emotions. When a husband tells a wife that he doesn't like what she fixed for dinner, it has minor effect on her self confidence. When a husband tells her that he doesn't like her appearance or that she is too fat for him to be attracted to (not the words he would use, but the overall message would be there) that can destroy a woman.

I struggle every day. Someone like you can say, "just exercise and eat right and the pounds will fall off." Well, that may be true, but when you throw a full time job, full time school, care and feeding of a pretty demanding husband and two dogs into the mix, there is no time to exercise an hour a day or to plan good meals. Those things take time and women today are so busy bringing home the bacon and frying it up in a pan and taking care of every little thing that they feel guilty leaving undone, very few women take the time to "care for themselves" which is what this amounts to.

The psychology of overweight problems goes far beyond a simple math equation. If that were all it took the world would be thin and healthy and weight loss would not be a multi billion dollar industry.

SweetLissa
 
Ahh, if only all life was as simple as an algebraic formula. Truth be told, the mechanics of weight management is a simple formula. But there are far more complex issues than caloric intake and expenditure. Why do we eat more than we need to function? Is it a sin issue? I suppose in some cases it may be, but that is going to be a small minority of people. There is also a very small minority of people that have extremely over effective metabolisms. The vast majority of people that have weight issues are dealing with emotional injuries and pain. Many have been dealing with them since early childhood. Yes, Christ has the answer to all our problems, including weight management, but few of those answers are easily applied. One thing that should be done away with is the myth that everyone should be slim. Each persons body shape has an optimum size and weight that allows them to function healthfully. There is no generic chart that can provide that information.

In a two year period, I lost 67 pounds. Here is what I learned that helped me.
1. Establishing a solid, intimate relationship with God provides acceptance and internal peace as the foundation for controlling appetite.
2. Finding someone or thing to focus love upon gives us a greater purpose than self-gratification.
3. Esteeming weight management to be a health issue is better than imagining a cosmetic issue. Knowing that we are worth the effort to improve our health is critical. We must love our selves!
4. Practice portion management rather than taste deprivation. A little of a tasty dessert, never hurt anyone. Dessert loses its value when we make it a main course.
5. Practice the Biblical discipline of fasting and prayer. Not long periods for self punishment or seeking the mysteries of God. Use one meal fasts to begin with and work up to a full day or days. The purpose is to bring your body into submission to your spirit and further enabling God's Spirit to guide and control your life. Food is good fuel and it is a wonderful treat, but it is a terrible operating system.
6. Recognize that often we try to make ourselves feel good by treating our pain with pleasant food. Recognize the source of pain and see #1 & # 2.
7. Exercise is beneficial to weight management and our sense of well being. But, if it is too hard to do, it won't get done. My experience shows me that walking is one of the best and cheapest forms. It can be done in groups or alone. It can provide exploration as well as burn calories and build muscle. Also walking helps the respiration and heart. Park farther away from the store or church entrance, might also make it easier to find a parking space. Taking the stairs gives you more time with your thoughts than making small talk on the elevator.

I make no claims to expertise. There are many possible solutions, but these are what helped me. Usually we do not feel good about ourselves when we are over weight. What liberty and joy comes our way when we discover that we can be in control of our weight management, rather than being dominated by defeatism and appetite. Freedom to follow the leadership of our Lord is one of the blessings that comes our way. Never give up for very long, just start over as many times as necessary to achieve victory.
 
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