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Getting the "Left foot of fellowship" over plural marriage

nathan

nathan

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One common theme at this weekend's retreat was people getting booted from their local Church over plural marriage - either over practicing or just the belief. We've just seen Hugh go through this painfully also. I'd like to open this thread for you to share your experiences - have you or haven't you gotten the "left foot of fellowship"? Tell us about it here.

We joked about making it a badge of honor, and even making a badge depicting a church building giving a family the boot, to give out to people.

My family went through this 13 years ago, and it was painful, no question. It's also one of the main reasons Biblical Families exists. Let us know your experience, and any advice you have for those going through this themselves.
 
We haven't been kicked out yet, so I don't have a story. Although the people I have talked to either think its a phase, or I'm going off the deep end.

I had some free time this morning, so I made a badge for those who have.
KickedOutOfChurchBadge01.gif
 
I was a preacher in the churches of Christ for over twenty years. I was a preacher/missionary for a congregation of the Church of Christ in a European country for six years. Soon after arriving at the mission location in 2000 I began an in-depth study of what God said about marriage and relationships in His Word. I used the internet as well as various other resources. Online I found references to polygamy/polygyny. My first thought was what I had always heard and what I had often taught in Bible classes--that it was either against God's will for a man to have more than one wife or it was something He "winked" at in times past. I soon began to see that what I believed did not match God's will.

If you don't know, all congregations of the churches of Christ are independent in their leadership--all leadership is local, either locally appointed elders or "the men of the church." There is no official national headquarters or governing body. Many congregations look to the teachers of the various Church of Christ-related colleges and universities as authoritative in biblical things. The generally accepted "teaching" of the churches of Christ on polygamy/polygyny is one man and one woman forever. Divorce is generally seen as always against the will of God except for sexual unfaithfullness. I have an undergraduate and a graduate degree in Bible-related areas from a university associated with the churches of Christ.

Soon after I began to understand that polygyny might be within God's will I told my wife what I was studying and what I was learning. Her reaction was typical (or so I've heard) of what many wives say when they first hear about it. She said she didn't believe it was in God's will and she asked why I wanted to study this topic. About the same time I also began to "bounce" some of the things I was studying off a few of the men of the congregation who I thought might be open to the idea of digging deeply into God's Word to learn what it really said. Some of the men just listened to me and some of them asked questions. I gave some or all of these men internet links or copies of things I'd downloaded. Most of them said little or they told me they didn't agree with what I said or with what they'd read from the links or papers. I told everyone I talked to about this subject that although I believed it was within God's will, I did't think it could work in our modern society and I didn't think any Christian man should pursue it. I told them that my understanding that it was within God's will had opened my eyes to a much greater understanding of God's Word in many areas. It helped me to understand some things that had been difficult to understand previously.

In early 2006 I was on a short mission trip to another European country for two weeks. When I returned home I found that my wife of almost 34 years had left me and moved back to the States. She had threatened to leave me a couple of other times during our marriage but I never thought she actually would. I'm still not completely sure of all the reasons behind her leaving but my belief that polygyny was within God's will was certainly a part of it. We didn't have elders at our congregation at that time. The congregation was made up of mostly military families so most of the men were young to middle-aged. I asked the men of the church to meet with me after the next Sunday evening services to talk about what had happened. I suspected that my wife did not plan to come back to me, even if I moved back to the States. I asked the men that if she didn't come back, could I continue to preach for the congregation. I was looking for their input and guidance. Immediately some of the men began attacking me because of my belief in polygyny. One man even reached into a briefcase he'd brought to the meeting and pulled out an article I'd given him from the internet about the meaning of the Greek word "mia" from 1 Timothy 3:2 and began to "grill" me about my understanding of it. It seemed to me that now that my wife had left me the floodgates were opened and they could openly attack me. They told me I didn't have to preach for awhile so I could try to get things sorted out in my marriage. I was communicating with my wife but I didn't immediately go back to the States because it was quite clear to me that she had no intention of coming back to me.

Several weeks later two of the more senior men of the congregation (both military officers--one was a former elder) met with me before a Sunday morning assembly and gave me a copy of a letter one of them would read to the congregation after the assembly. It essentially said that they were letting me go because I believed polygyny (they used the word polygamy) was within the will of God and that I'd taught it was still valid for Christians today.
 
David, thanks for sharing your testimony here. You and I have communicated in the past, and I already knew some of the details. I am glad that you felt open to share at this time.

I am so glad that God has continued to work in your life, and has provided you with a new family to comfort you as you continue to pursue ministry.

So, when are you organizing the European Biblical Families Retreat? LOL? :D

Blessings!
 
Hi David,

I understand where you are coming from with a Church of Christ background. I have attended a Church of Christ my whole life and still attend one. I met my wife at ACU working in the cafeteria together. I hope it is a small comfort to you to know that there is at least one person from that background who believes the way that you do. I am sorry for the way you were treated.

In my own case I have not been kicked out of any church, but my wife and I have lost church friends over the issue.
 
Cnystrom,

My son graduated from ACU twice--once in 1999 and just last year from the Marriage and Family Counseling program.
Thanks for your words of encouragement. Hope you never have to go through what I did at the hands of my brothers in Christ.

In His service and yours,
Dave
 
diasōzō said:
We haven't been kicked out yet, so I don't have a story. Although the people I have talked to either think its a phase, or I'm going off the deep end.

I had some free time this morning, so I made a badge for those who have.
KickedOutOfChurchBadge01.gif
Click to expand...

i want one! me me me
 
DaPastor,

I teach English in the English Language Institute of the American University in Bulgaria. I am not currently associated with any organized religious group in Bulgaria. My family worships at home. I strive to be a good mirror (to reflect Him) for Christ wherever I am.

In His service and yours,
Dave
 
I have been booted out of the Church of Christ not once but twice, partially because of my belief in Scriptural Polygyny. I grew up in the CoC, attending both Freed-Hardeman University and the Memphis School of Preaching, both being the polar opposite of the vastly liberal ACU. I have served as a COC minister in several states here in the US, but after the second time of being booted, the Lord worked with me personally to completely open my eyes. I would love to talk with anyone who has either been booted out or is still int he COC.

Scott
 
Nathan7 said:
One common theme at this weekend's retreat was people getting booted from their local Church over plural marriage - either over practicing or just the belief. We've just seen Hugh go through this painfully also."
Click to expand...
I certainly did not want to get the "Left Foot," but I regarded it as one possible outcome, the most likely outcome actually, and I was as ready for it as I could be. Still, that boot is awfully hard and leaves you pretty sore.

I don't know what to do NEXT exactly, there are several choices.

I honestly don't want to go to another church. I've nailed my thesis to the "Wittenberg door," they've tossed me out. I can fight to stay in, or I can stay out. Going to another church simply starts the process all over again and it's hard to see that as anything but rabble rousing.

If I fight, I have to sue. That's problematic. There are two ways to rationalize (2nd, 3rd and 4th definitions) suing:

1.) Per 1st Corinthians 6, they can treat me as an "unbeliever." By this I mean that the ban on lawsuits against me is lifted, if I am thrown out of the church, as far as they are concerned. I would assume in this treatment, that the removal of the ban is a two way street. I have always assumed the first to be true, it's the second part, the two way street that wrinkles my brow.

2.) The church is not a person, it's a corporate entity. I can sue "it" for that reason. I wonder about this too. Explaining such a hair splitting distinction is not likely to be well received, to put it mildly, suing the CORPORATE entity is thus problematic.

Unless I can find a "mediation" service, it's lawsuit or give up, there don't seem to be other paths. One of the elders of my church was a member of the most prominent Christian Mediation service in the country. Just take my word for it that they whitewashed the issue. Remember, that technically I have not been "thrown out" of my church, I just have been "barred from the property" and the reason is that anonymous members of the church "feel threatened" by me. Never mind the fact that Christ said if you have ought against your brother (as clearly these "threatened" persons do), you must go to them in person. Frankly, other than the sting of the boot, it's hilarious in a dark and cynical sort of way.

I am commanded to fellowship. What do I do now?

In my HUMBLE view, the Roman Catholic Church at least was at one time a legitimate church. I won't debate what it is now or when it became that way. When Martin Luther nails his 95 Theses to the Wittenberg Door, he begins a process of beginning a new legitimate church by witnessing to the place he was planted, and being rejected by them. The RCC traces it's roots all the way back to the letter of Romans and the local church that Jerusalem endorsed through Paul in the Letter to the Romans. If I am legitimately connected to the RCC through Luther and the Reformation, I am legitimately connected to the first body of Christ, and I regard that as important. I am most certainly NOT alone in this regard, but I am one of a very few with the boot imprint.

Without trying to stir anything up here (though I appear to have a talent for it), my next possible solution to the problem of my left foot badge is to start my own church, or more accurately, my own denomination. I've done my due diligence, I didn't just huff my way out the door when I didn't like the response I was getting. I tried. I got booted. God forms his church around the faithful and in this case I am certain that I was "the faithful," not my congregation and leadership. I suppose I could be illuminated and see the light and realize this was not the case, but no one has been able to do anything but yell at me about this, no reason has been applied, no Godly procedure.

I frankly see a LACK of discipline in the "Christian Polygyny" movement. A sort of "Me, me, me, I'm the boss and you're not" sort of approach. Christianity is tough stuff. It's not just reading your Bible and saying "Aha!, You're WRONG about marriage" and then retreating into an anonymous self satisfied "cul-de-sac." Part of the toughness of Christianity is the community. It's the discipline. It's the submission. We are all rebels and wish to submit to no one.

The church is about fellowship and about authority, our individual lives about being a light to the world. Submitting to earthly authority shows us faithful in small things in front of God, and the world. If we are getting "called out," or BOOTED out, then we need to "Re-Form" or we will wander in the wilderness, aimlessly. If we claim to have a greater understanding of some truths of scripture, as I believe we do, we are in fact the worst of the two groups (us or those that booted us) if we do nothing.

My biggest problem is I'm not a "Group." What do we do about this?

God's early church was ruled from Jerusalem and spanned an empire of one nation. I don't propose a new "Rome" or new "Jerusalem," but do think we need to "Get it together" here and now.
 
Um, I'm hardly being a "victim." I don't think of "Paltalk" as a substitute for church, nor do I regard the internet as a substitute for fellowship. The majority of the books of the New Testament are letters regarding the formation and maintainance of formal churches. Most of Acts is about proselytizing and creating churches as well as the doctrinal discussions that go with them.

We're supposed to be part of a literal physical fellowship. We're supposed to seek that fellowship out where possible. In a specific and immediate sense I may be exactly where I am supposed to be, in a corporate continuing sense, we are not to be scattered and rootless. We are to gather and be accountable to one another. I'm very positive about this, I don't see myself as a victim, nor do I feel like one.
 
i enjoy fellowship wherever i can find it.

i was also raised in the Church of Christ, but after a study of the origins of the change of the day of assembly from the 7th day Sabbath to the first day of the week, i began observing the 7th day. I would have thought my Sabbath observant brethren would have embraced a polygamous family, but i was wrong. Some did, but the "powers that be" would not, and we were told not to attend services anymore unless the additional wives and their children were out of our family.

We started sending the kids to a local baptist Church for wed night bible studies and sunday mornings. Lately, we have been attending a new non denominational assembly that meets at the mall near us. I have been surprised at how open minded they are, and willing to hear interpretations and understandings from others.

After many years of internet debate, i have tried to avoid criticising the interpretation or understanding of others. i simply testify as to how i interpret and understand, and try not to require others to agree with me. This has worked pretty well in most cases, but many Christians seem determined that their understanding is the most accurate, and are determined to get everyone else to believe as they do.

Anyway, if your fellow Christians have beaten you about the head and shoulders with their Bible trying to "correct" your error, or even stoned you and left you for dead 5 times as they did Apostle Paul,.. consider it an honor to suffer persecution for your faith.

Paul
 
Personally, I will let the Judge of All decide if it is for his sake that I have suffered. I know that I do things in life all to frequently for personal reasons, not Godly ones. My point continues to be, if we are getting thrown out, and it is for the right reasons, we need to organize into fellowships of our own. I don't mean "Internet Fellowship," though if that is all that is available, that is certainly worthwhile.
 
Hugh McBryde said:
Without trying to stir anything up here (though I appear to have a talent for it), my next possible solution to the problem of my left foot badge is to start my own church, or more accurately, my own denomination.
Click to expand...

This is one point that I have to respectfully disagree on. Denominations are nothing more than a division and more divisions within Christianity is something that we don't need. Christianity has now-a-days become more of a market than a religion. If you don't like one particular brand then you can just go subscribe to another one. I really like the approach that Biblical Families has went with in accepting multiple people and multiple trains of thought. Denominations much too often restrict people to the way that they want to do things. And if you're not in line with the way that the denomination thinks then you are not welcome. I think instead of creating more denominations or divisions, we need to come together without titles and labels. Christianity is Christianity: not Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Messianics, Presbyterians, Church of Christ, Church of God, Assemblies of Christ, Assemblies of God, Episcopalians, etc, etc.
 
Hugh McBryde said:
Personally, I will let the Judge of All decide if it is for his sake that I have suffered. I know that I do things in life all to frequently for personal reasons, not Godly ones. My point continues to be, if we are getting thrown out, and it is for the right reasons, we need to organize into fellowships of our own. I don't mean "Internet Fellowship," though if that is all that is available, that is certainly worthwhile.
Click to expand...

I agree and that's the thing about the retreats that has been so helpful and successful. Plus the various homegroups that are springing up all over the country. Internet fellowship is great and convenient, but face to face fellowship is so much more beneficial in my opinion.
 
faithfulfatherof9 said:
I would have thought my Sabbath observant brethren would have embraced a polygamous family, but i was wrong. Some did, but the "powers that be" would not, and we were told not to attend services anymore unless the additional wives and their children were out of our family.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I always thought it was strange as well that the Messianic groups and those that observe more of the Tanakh would be open to the idea of plural marriage, but that just hasn't been the case in the local groups around the area. Even the Jews too.
 
I understand that Todd. I'd like to submit to you that there were two denominations mentioned in scripture. The Sadducees and the Pharisees. We know of a third, the Essenes through history and archeology, but scripture only mentions the two. I greatly prefer no denominations but that's a wine bottle uncorked. Once someone travels the road to error, there is division. Once there is a division, there are "sects" or denominations of a religion. In other words, I'm not going to be Catholic because they were there first, and have been around longer. I notice that Martin Luther tried to stay Catholic, but was thrown out.

What's a fella to do when that happens? I'd say Luther did the right thing but now there are denominations. At one time the church was Governed through James and the elders in Jerusalem, from Jerusalem but that time has passed. In my humble view Lutherans gain legitimacy from being thrown out by the RCC, so do (for instance) the Presbyterians. As the world divided into nations after the Roman Empire collapsed, the view arose that Churches, being submissive to governors, should not be governed across national boundaries, and I think this is sound.

So, in short form, we have the following.

The RCC which gives birth (however unwillingly) to the Reformation through the error of the RCC. The RCC goes back to the Jerusalem Church.

Lutherans and Presbyterians are reformation products of the RCC expulsion of Luther.

Puritans (Presbyterians) move to the Colonies.

The Colonies rebel, establishing a new local Government.

The American Presbyterian church springs up to be in submission to local governance, they make alterations to the essential charter of the Presbyterians, the Westminster Confession and continue. The American Presbyterians split during the civil war. The North DRIFTS, theologically, the OPC comes out of the PCUSA (Northern Presbyterian Church) due to their error. John Gresham Machen is tossed out of that church over different issues, but in much the same way I was tossed out of the OPC, the denomination John Gresham Machen founded.

I may be in error, but I can historically trace my roots back to Jerusalem, where the early church was governed. If you submit to authority, you must be able to do so. We are (I would assume), patriarchal in our beliefs, scripture believing and "originalist," wanting to stick to that vision of Christianity that was extant when Christ's immediate disciples/apostles still lived.

Denominations are necessary since men fell into error and as Mark is fond of saying, when that happens, we must "come out." I think we mean different things at least ever so slightly about "coming out," but even the apostles submitted up to a point to temple governors and authorities, and Christ even recommended it.

We have denominations, and there must be some historical link to what is past. The Roman church for instance, sprang up without planting by an apostle, but sought out and submitted to, Jerusalem.
 
Don't quite follow you, Hugh:

Bible says the head of a woman is the man; head of the man is Christ; head of Christ is the Father.

That's a pretty simple line of authority. I can follow that.

But where does a denomination, or an ancient line of denominational authority fit into that chain? Isn't there that I can see.
 
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