Gambling: what are your thoughts?

[MarvelousMarvin]

"Hey, Felix, you take the robe, Julius take the tunic, Festus take the belt and sandles, and I'll take the cloak."

"OK, Longinus, but what about this fake king's seamless garment?"

"Got dice?"

 

[Tlaloc]

There was a spirit of anticipation, a desparate hope for wealth. This is my problem with gambling, a mis-placed hope for gain.

The love of Mamon is the root of all evil. I agree with Keith, this is the heart of the problem. But once again, both the desperate hope for wealth and the mis-placed hope for gain can come with any business endeavor, I've seen both ill planned business and obsessive gambling, there isn't much of a difference in the mentality or the end result. The question with gambling is the same as with anything, are you giving it your heart and are you too tied up in it. It's entirely possible to be an overall dispassionate gambler, I've seen it and I've been it.

SweetLisa said it right:

The problem happens when you let the thing (whatever it is) take over your life and become your master. I feel the same way about drinking etc.

The sin happens when the activity becomes your life. The same can be said for people who study too much, sew too much, read too much, work too much and so on. It is the addiction not the behavior that is a sin.

If you desperately have to have anything beyond God, Family, Food and Shelter then you've gotten your priorities wrong. There's a lot of things you can have and may have and should have. But as soon as anything becomes an obsession or desperation there is something wrong.

Mamon is things of this world, and I'm not sure if food and shelter, or even family belong on the have to have list.

 

[Paul not the apostle]

Is there any word in the economy of God that means "chance" or "luck".

Notice that I did not put a question mark.

If you are going to spend your "money" on gambling, either a quarter or a dollar, then send me a pm, I know a plural family that needs it. They currently are living in a hotel because a family member started causing so many problems that they had to uproot entirely and move. They put down a deposit of several thousand dollars on a rental house and found out that the "owner" did not own the house and took their money and ran. They are basically broke and now do not have the deposit money to get out of the hotel and into ANY house. I know someone that sold a $4000 item for $1000 in order to help them by sending them the entire amount. And the family that sold the item could have used it, and they definitely are not affluent. Good thing that they do not gamble or game, or entertain themselves using their "extra" cash.

At this point, someone is probably saying, "Oh, I did not know or I would or would have...". This is exactly my point. We are disconnected from our brothers and don't even KNOW when they are in need. If you have extra money or "think" that you do, then I would suggest a look around. I would "bet money on it" (yours, not mine) that within a two mile radius you will find a fellow human in need. A good friend challenged me in this very topic years ago, and I did not make it past the next door neighbor with my "expendable-extra-entertainment-gaming" cash.

How about a donation to the non profit that has established this site that we all enjoy? :?:
How about a donation to the non profit to help pay for the excellent guest speakers at the retreats or the retreats themselves?
How about a donation to the non profit to help pay for a single mom to come to a retreat?

Need entertainment to spend your money on?

I will wear my kilt and do jumping jacks for you, guaranteed to make a memory that will last a lifetime and cure you from seeking future entertainment. All proceeds will go to someone that is cold, hungry, or needy in some way. I know that all of you are thinking that you would not pay to see me uncover my nakedness. However, I know that you and your neighbors would pay me to NOT do those jumping jacks in your front lawn during the hours when you are all going out the door to work in the morning.

 

[Tlaloc]

In English the (admittedly antiquated) convention for rhetorical questions is an upside down question mark ¿

Is there any word in the economy of God that means "chance" or "luck" ¿

Anyway, what you are saying does apply to any entertainment or excess, not gambling alone.

Anyways, I'm not disconnected with my community, and have helped people in need both with finances and a place to stay. I know that if I looked I could always find someone else, but it is not my burden to help everyone in every community in the world. We could get probably get into a pretty decent discussion as to how many people are disconnected with their local community, but the other side of that is that they are overconnected with the world at large. People whern't built to both know about and feel an obligation to every bad event and hard luck case in the world. Did I know about this family? No. Did I know there where families down on their luck like that¿ That needs no answer. I have, and will continue to, spend a portion of my income on luxuries such as entertainment. There will always be poor and always be needs, this is a promise. That does does not mean luxury spending is sinful or immoral in and of itself.

 

[Scarecrow]

"If you have extra money or "think" that you do, then I would suggest a look around."

Finally...a voice of reason.

In the US those living at or below the poverty level are currently at an all time record high.

2,100,000 homes will be foreclosed on in 2011.

The trade policies set in place in 1793 by Alexander Hamilton built the wealth and middle class of our country. In the 1980s they were circumvented by the Clinton administration which has decimated the middle class of America.

If you are one of the fortunate few to have a steady income and it is more important to entertain yourself with games of chance than helping others overcome the challenges in their lives maybe you should consider your true motivations.

The last time I dissected my budget I found that if I removed everything that was not required for me to pay (electricity, taxes, etc) or necessary (food, soap, etc) I had $900 available. I did this to prove a point to myself and a friend. We typically spend what we earn or more. If my income dropped by $500/month I might be a little uncomfortable, but I would do just fine. We are selfish, self-centered creatures and when we become even a little introspective it is easy to see a lot we may not like.

Instead of putting that dollar in a slot machine or buying a loto ticket or a Mountain Dew...there are thousands of individuals and organizations that desperately need it...

There are an estimated 243,186,000 Christians in the USA. Imagine if each one of them gave a dollar more every month (I know for most of them that would bring the monthly total to $1) what a difference could be made in our communities.

Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

 

[Tlaloc]

Yeah, 900$ per month on luxuries does certainly seem very excessive to me. But it's your prerogative if thats how you live.

But now it seems we've come to something along the lines of 'I (who does not gamble) spend too much money on excess, therefore gambling is wrong.'

and I can't help but say that the voice of reason has been utterly lost from this part of the conversation.

Its ascetic nonsense to ban luxury spending because poor people exist, and I say that as someone who cares about and purchases relatively few luxuries.

If of thy mortal goods thou art bereft,

and from thy slender store

Two loaves alone to thee are left,

Sell one, and with the dole

Buy Hyacinths to feed thy Soul.

A little luxury is necessary, and some things which are not basic necessities are.

 

[Scarecrow]

The $900 brought me to a subsistence level of living, no allowance for new clothing or anything else, simply existing...for example instead of having full coverage on a vehicle I could cut that to only what is required by law...I need my vehicle for my job so there are expenses for that I consider mandatory. It is making these kinds of cuts/adjustments to my budget that brought me to that figure...I don't have $900/mo in discretionary spending.

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

You are absolutely wrong and couldn't be further from the truth!! I can't believe you would say such a thing!!

 

[sweetlissa]

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Show me the law that says Gambling is a sin.

If you want to argue about excess
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

Anyone who has more than food and clothing has excess.

I did not say that I gamble, but I did defend the use of gambling as a form of entertainment. What is the difference between spending $9 gambling and spending $9 on a movie that will fill your head with cuss words and violent or lustful thoughts?

What is the difference between spending $40 going out to eat and spending $40 on gambling.

It can be said that gambling is not a wise thing to do. How wise is it to purchase a new car and make 5-6 years of payments on it while it depreciates? How wise is it to eat out when healthier and more economical food can be made at home? How wise is it to live in a home that is too big for your needs. How wise is it to live on many acres of land when you only need a small plot of land. How wise is it to have tons of electronic gadgets to turn your brain to mush rather than spending time in the Word...

The list goes on, yet none of those things are considered sin.

The thread began asking if people on this board considered gambling to be a sin. It is obvious that a large majority of the members think it is a sin, but I have not seen one scripture that calls it a sin.

SweetLissa

 

[sweetlissa]

For anyone who cares, we are currently living on 25% of what we were making in 2009. We barely make ends meet. I cannot remember the last time I went out to dinner in a restaurant, the last movie I went to, the last time I did anything that cost more than $1 for entertainment. I don't have an "entertainment" budget. And I never enjoyed gambling when I lived in Reno and I did it only when there were certain family members in town who enjoyed it.

The fact remains that it is a choice not a sin. If a person has a budget that includes entertainment it is not anyone's business if that entertainment is gambling, movie going, skiing, reading or whatever.

 

[Anonymous]

Please consider, folks, the distinction beween gaming, gambling and occupational risk taking.

 

[Scarecrow]

Exactly John. "Gambling: what are your thoughts?"

I love to play cards, but do not do it with a potential financial gain or loss involved...that is not gambling

Putting money in an arcade machine...fine...waste of money in my personal opinion...but fine I don't see that as the same as gambling.

Farmers and business men taking financial risks...part of the job...some risk taking cannot be avoided...that is not gambling

Gambling is voluntarily risking your money, sometimes under the guise of "entertainment", hoping for an unearned and undeserved return on your "investment" which is evil. Just what does the money given to others in gambling accomplish? What do they do with it? Is that a good use of the resources that God has given you?

Money, and how we are to handle it, is one of if not the most prevalent topics in the scriptures. In fact if we do not take God's provision and provide for him a return on His investment He will not entrust us with more.

25:14-29 "For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

Go ahead and gamble if you must and you have justified it in your own mind...I do not believe it will cost you your salvation...however I do believe you will not like the eternal consequences. If I am wrong I have lost nothing...if I am right you have much to lose.

 

[Tlaloc]

John,

Please consider, folks, the distinction beween gaming, gambling and occupational risk taking.

I'm not sure what you think the difference is, because you didn't say it. But I had a rather longish post including talk about differences in Return on Investment based on Risk\Reward trade off between most mainstream gambling establishments. The definition of gambling ranges from 'to play a game of chance for any stakes' (so, toothpicks DOES count Scarecrow) to 'to risk anything of value on something involving chance' which applies to any business venture. Depending on your definition either any game of chance with winners and losers is gambling or any venture is gambling. Take you're pick, but either way opposing gambling wholesale is nonsense.

Scarecrow,

hoping for an unearned and undeserved return on your "investment" which is evil.

And this is different than usury or interest or investment how? Spend money for money.

Just what does the money given to others in gambling accomplish? What do they do with it?

In Canada, it's profits primarily fund Children's hospitals and minor sports, and occasionally other community development events and things. Gambling is Crown controlled, it's not like it has a private owner to turn a profit off it.

If I am wrong I have lost nothing

Don't count on it, this is no Pascals wager. By the measure of every judgment you make you will be judged, and you have the tools in front of you to know better than to condemn the action itself. You'd have to consider yourself very near perfection to pass down judgment based on your ideals since such an action opens judgment against you for every ideal you hold.

Mark me, if you wrongfully believe someone will face eternal consequences when you have the tools to be right, you will actually face eternal consequences based on your own judgment. If you are wrong you have as much to lose as you're opponents would if you where right.

This is why I do not toy around with saying things are sin or wrong in and of themselves unless I know beyond a shadow of a doubt by the authority of Scripture. There is a lot to lose in making presumptuous or wrong judgments.

 

[Scarecrow]

"(so, toothpicks DOES count Scarecrow)"

They all go in the trash when finished...would you really want to stick one of them in your mouth?

From everything I have read it simply looks like people choose to draw the line at different points and therefore their definition of gambling is different from others. What I consider gambling would never survive a scriptural examination...therefore my comments that people gambling have much to lose is based on my understanding of gambling to be against what the Word of God tells me.

 

[sweetlissa]

So show me the scripture. So far no one has given a single scripture that shows that gambling is sin.

I think you will find it in the same place that says polygyny is a sin.

SweetLissa

 

[Anonymous]

So show me the scripture. So far no one has given a single scripture that shows that gambling is sin.

Here is one.

1 John 2:15-16
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

From my understanding the difference between gaming, gambling and occupational risk taking are the issues of the heart, including motive and intent. Gaming, for the sake of the pleasure of company, the thrill of risk and hopefully winning can be done without much of an investment. I have played cards and dice for such high stakes as chips (plastic), beans, toothpicks and matches. When the game was over, all the fun was had, but no one's bills went unpaid, no one went hungry or into debt for the fun of the game. The thrill of the risk and chance was superficial. Gambling has the same fun, but with much higher consequences, whether winning or losing. Losing produces loss of resources, but winning provides an emotional high that is addictive to many personality types and is more dangerous than losing. Occupational risk taking, as in farming and ranching, according to many of the same, that I have pastored over many years and according to the Bible, is more of an act of faith in God's providence than it is gambling.

Is gambling a sin? I doubt that we can find a verse that says in some measure, Thou shalt not gamble, but the issue that troubles my heart when it comes to gambling is two fold, 1. As the above verses speak, where is our love focused. Do we as believers take our delight in the same things that the lost people of the world find so extremely stimulating. In my life if have been to Vegas, once and in three or four other casinos with friends. In each case I was awestruck with the reality that people were there for the hope of gain, no one seemed to be having fun. Maybe I missed the spots where they were, but in reality, I'm quite confident that I saw a good sampling. Will anyone go to hell because of gambling, whether mine or theirs, I doubt it. But, I am always asked in my spirit, who do you love?
2. Simply put, our money is our life and if we gamble it on the turn of a card, the spin of a wheel or whatever, we are unfaithful stewards, indeed. We trade our time on the job for money and we trade that money for goods or services that we need and perhaps to share a blessing with others. But remember, it is our life, converted into money we are spending. Spend it wisely.

As a child of God, I believe we are called to a life of holiness, becoming more and more Christ-like as we grow in Him. Therefore, it is not my goal and hopefully yours as well to see how much like the world I can be and still serve my Lord, but rather to see how much more I can serve Him and honor Him each day.

I have never felt the presence of the Lord in a casino, even though I am sure a lot of praying was going on.

 

[sweetlissa]

Which is what I was saying from the beginning. If it is entertainment then it qualifies as "gaming" and is not a sin. If you are enslaved by it (winning or losing) then it is a heart problem and the sin is about where your heart is, not the action. If someone's heart is in the wrong place it could be on gambling, drinking, drugs, smoking, pornography, or other things that become our masters (hobbies, avocations). The point was that it is not the act that is sinful but the condition of the heart of the person actively involved in the situation.

Picture this...

I lived in Reno. My parents come to visit and they take me out to dinner at a local casino. While waiting for our turn, we all stand at the slots and "pay our taxes." Nevada has no personal income tax, so when people gamble the residents call them "taxpayers." Now I could give a lecture about how wrong it is to gamble, creating family strife etc. Or I could spend a pleasant evening with my parents, modeling moderate behavior and allowing them to enjoy being in the presence of a Christian who is not waiting to beat them senseless because they haven't chosen the same path I have.

My parents are in their 70's. They have worked hard all their lives. They put aside enough that they can have a fairly comfortable retirement. They budget carefully for every trip and they make ends meet better than I do, even on a fixed income. They earned the right to make their choices. They earned the money they are spending. I resent that anyone on this board or any other should tell me that instead of having a little fun with my family I should find someone else to bless. We go out of our way to bless people every day of our lives. No we don't write them checks, but we often feed people, bring gifts and spend time in fellowship with them. It is not anyone else's place to tell me or anyone else what to do with their money.

If you don't want to gamble, don't. It is as simple as that. But when someone asks if it is a sin, don't say it is unless you are willing to back it up with scripture.

SweetLissa

 

[sweetlissa]

Since the subject of excess came up I wanted to ask a few questions

How many TV's do you have?
How many Cell Phones do you have?
How many computers?
How many game systems?
How many CD's/DVD's/BlueRays do you own?
How many cars do you have?
MP3 players?
Stereos?
Wives?

Anything above food and clothing is excess. So if someone wants to argue about excess, maybe they should look in the mirror. Because anything on that list was bought with excess money that could have been used to bless some family that needed it.

And by the way, some people tried to bless that family, but no one ever returned phone calls or text messages. Since the people didn't know where they were, they were unable to do anything for them. Blessing goes both ways.

SweetLissa

 

[Lysistrata]

If you don't want to gamble, don't. It is as simple as that. But when someone asks if it is a sin, don't say it is unless you are willing to back it up with scripture.

SweetLissa

Well said Lissa!

Those who are addicted to gambling need prayer and support. If they weren't in casinos gambling then they would be betting on rooster fights and grasshopper races. They would gamble. The games are not sinful. We are.

 

[Tlaloc]

Scarecrow,
I've given several definitions of gambling, and you failing to define what you mean by gambling is just a cover because you won't be able to defend either that your definition is actually what gambling is, or it will easily survive scriptural examination. But we always have so many little cults based on what someone feels the word of God tells him and he won't discuss the mater seriously with other believers.

Judging something sin or not is not a trifling matter, and it is not something that is done safely. Its the court of old Geneva, if you accuse someone of something and they are found innocent, you must bear the punishment they would have gotten. People need to bear that in mind when carelessly saying 'this is sin'. You do not get to make accusations on any act or individual without repercussions, knowing right and wrong is serious business.


John,

2. Simply put, our money is our life

Careful with your words, I'll deal with more of what you said when I get more time.