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DiscussingTheTopic said:
DTT
You marry whomever GOD wants you to marry. If you make it HIS decision, you won't go wrong !
Blessings,
Fairlight
-
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Do moral women exist?
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DTT
You marry whomever GOD wants you to marry. If you make it HIS decision, you won't go wrong !
Blessings,
Fairlight
Fairlight, as a woman, has said it well there.
The focus must be on God and HIS choice, not yours DTT. In other words, you must let providence have its way, not your way.
To answer your question, a mature and wise person in Christ will first discern if a person has a good heart (redeemed, born again) and then will develop the relationship from that point. If the heart is good but still very shallow or low on morality then discipleship is key to see if that person will recognize the areas that are lacking and if an effort will be made to overcome it.
Growth will occur in a true believer's life. However, if for some reason a man were to notice a serious wayward direction in a lady and she refused to correct course then that would be a sign or warning not to unite with her until a new direction were sought. As I have said, the heart is the issue. Is the person's heart truly humble, truly willing to submit to the Lord as spelled out in Scripture, or is the heart cold, hard, and unwilling to submit to the Word of God.
The focus must be on God and HIS choice, not yours DTT. In other words, you must let providence have its way, not your way.
To answer your question, a mature and wise person in Christ will first discern if a person has a good heart (redeemed, born again) and then will develop the relationship from that point. If the heart is good but still very shallow or low on morality then discipleship is key to see if that person will recognize the areas that are lacking and if an effort will be made to overcome it.
Growth will occur in a true believer's life. However, if for some reason a man were to notice a serious wayward direction in a lady and she refused to correct course then that would be a sign or warning not to unite with her until a new direction were sought. As I have said, the heart is the issue. Is the person's heart truly humble, truly willing to submit to the Lord as spelled out in Scripture, or is the heart cold, hard, and unwilling to submit to the Word of God.
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
I have noticed a lot of wayward churchgoers, wouldn't it be better to work with someone who has no Anti-Christ Church upbringing than a false christian.
Great question DTT.
That depends upon whom the Lord brings into your path by his providence. One thing you will notice if you read the whole book of Acts. The people who were not sent forth as missionaries did life in their area and sought to work within their own spheres of daily life. In other words, who does God have right before you where you eat, breathe, live today? Are they wayward people? Then go be a disciple of someone who can show you or work with you turn wayward people to the truth. Are they all pagans with no religious background? Then learn from another who has done it how to win pagans to Christ and what to do and what has worked. Or is it both people groups? Then learn from others more mature than you how to go and make disciples of both groups.
The key is simple: (1) Be a disciple of someone who can teach you, so (2) in turn you can go forth in your immediate area and make disciples. Paul stated this when he said to Timothy: "teach faithful men who can in turn teach others" (2 Tim. 2:2).
Traveling around the globe, running here and there, over yonder, up there, down there, all around just to go find any woman who will have you so you can hope to try and make her a Christian is not how the Lord's mature saints go about discipleship. Discipleship begins at your front door, your neighborhood, your city, your county, your local areas where you live and beyond.
A man was once told to go and make disciples. So he did. He saw needs, and went out and tried. He made a mess of things. He came back and said, it is not working. The people will not listen to me. He was asked did he think it was because of the people or because of his lack of maturity? He thought about it and realized that he did not have the skills to make friends or build relationships in general. Thus, this issue in life caused him to lack the ability to win people towards him and thus his ability to share the gospel and win people to Christ. What did he need? He needed discipleship himself. But after some discipleship and intense days of being challenged and discipled, he grew and was better able to relate to people both as a friend, as an evangelist, and as a teacher.
Guess who that person was? ME!
DTT, I want you to find a mate in life. I pray you do. But, I have an inclination that you must first go through some discipleship yourself in order to be able to learn some skills you need in order to win over a mate to you as well to the Lord, hopefully before you mate with her lest you build a home upon something other than the rock of Christ. Building a home upon part of the rock and part of the sand is not the way to go. I think what is happening is that you are so eager to find a mate that you are now illing to find anyone who is desparate to find a man. Desparation looking for another desparate person.
I think you could excel in the Lord brother. I think with some relational skills and with some good solid biblical discipleship you could run the race with splendor where your skill and ability would be attractive to the others. I think you have a ministry right before your eyes. As Jesus said, the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few. There is not enough of us today in the laboring field. Oh sure, there are thousands upon thousands playing in the field, but they are not willing to subjec themselves to the training in order to be mature workers in the field who can bring in the harvest. Harvesting requires discipleship! I think there is a vast field before you, one where you will be able to share the gospel, share the Lord's love, and make friends, win people to Christ, and influence people towards his kingdom.
But I think before you get to that point there are a few steps you need to back up and examine, re-think, and study for the first time.
I don't share any of this with you to restrict you or to hurt you or anything like that. I truly do care for you and for your future life and for your earthly life here and now, even your goal to find a "moral woman." It is because of that, not in spite of it, that I offer these things with you. Time is love. Dr. Raegean and others leaders here have much to do. But if you are willing to back up and re-examine some things I think it will be a blessing to you all the way around.
But, if your mind is made up, and you are not willing to consider by logic and reason some things in the word that points to another direction than what you already have established in your mind then you'll continue down the same road, which will probably continue to give you the same results.
But deep down in me, a part of me says you have a seed in you that is not happy with the road you are on, thus all of the considerations of unsaved woman just so you can find what you are looking for. I think, though I might be wrong, that deep down you are running in this direction of finding any woman who is even unsaved and in another religion because the road you have been on has not worked. Thus you shifted gears. But looking ahead I think you'll find the same grief at the end of this road you felt at the end of the other road you left to begin this road course. What I am trying to do is to offer to you a "pit-stop," so you can refresh, re-examine, and go back out with a new car on a road course that will not end in grief. Ultimately, I want you to finish the race and hear the words: "well done good and faithful servant."
That depends upon whom the Lord brings into your path by his providence. One thing you will notice if you read the whole book of Acts. The people who were not sent forth as missionaries did life in their area and sought to work within their own spheres of daily life. In other words, who does God have right before you where you eat, breathe, live today? Are they wayward people? Then go be a disciple of someone who can show you or work with you turn wayward people to the truth. Are they all pagans with no religious background? Then learn from another who has done it how to win pagans to Christ and what to do and what has worked. Or is it both people groups? Then learn from others more mature than you how to go and make disciples of both groups.
The key is simple: (1) Be a disciple of someone who can teach you, so (2) in turn you can go forth in your immediate area and make disciples. Paul stated this when he said to Timothy: "teach faithful men who can in turn teach others" (2 Tim. 2:2).
Traveling around the globe, running here and there, over yonder, up there, down there, all around just to go find any woman who will have you so you can hope to try and make her a Christian is not how the Lord's mature saints go about discipleship. Discipleship begins at your front door, your neighborhood, your city, your county, your local areas where you live and beyond.
A man was once told to go and make disciples. So he did. He saw needs, and went out and tried. He made a mess of things. He came back and said, it is not working. The people will not listen to me. He was asked did he think it was because of the people or because of his lack of maturity? He thought about it and realized that he did not have the skills to make friends or build relationships in general. Thus, this issue in life caused him to lack the ability to win people towards him and thus his ability to share the gospel and win people to Christ. What did he need? He needed discipleship himself. But after some discipleship and intense days of being challenged and discipled, he grew and was better able to relate to people both as a friend, as an evangelist, and as a teacher.
Guess who that person was? ME!
DTT, I want you to find a mate in life. I pray you do. But, I have an inclination that you must first go through some discipleship yourself in order to be able to learn some skills you need in order to win over a mate to you as well to the Lord, hopefully before you mate with her lest you build a home upon something other than the rock of Christ. Building a home upon part of the rock and part of the sand is not the way to go. I think what is happening is that you are so eager to find a mate that you are now illing to find anyone who is desparate to find a man. Desparation looking for another desparate person.
I think you could excel in the Lord brother. I think with some relational skills and with some good solid biblical discipleship you could run the race with splendor where your skill and ability would be attractive to the others. I think you have a ministry right before your eyes. As Jesus said, the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few. There is not enough of us today in the laboring field. Oh sure, there are thousands upon thousands playing in the field, but they are not willing to subjec themselves to the training in order to be mature workers in the field who can bring in the harvest. Harvesting requires discipleship! I think there is a vast field before you, one where you will be able to share the gospel, share the Lord's love, and make friends, win people to Christ, and influence people towards his kingdom.
But I think before you get to that point there are a few steps you need to back up and examine, re-think, and study for the first time.
I don't share any of this with you to restrict you or to hurt you or anything like that. I truly do care for you and for your future life and for your earthly life here and now, even your goal to find a "moral woman." It is because of that, not in spite of it, that I offer these things with you. Time is love. Dr. Raegean and others leaders here have much to do. But if you are willing to back up and re-examine some things I think it will be a blessing to you all the way around.
But, if your mind is made up, and you are not willing to consider by logic and reason some things in the word that points to another direction than what you already have established in your mind then you'll continue down the same road, which will probably continue to give you the same results.
But deep down in me, a part of me says you have a seed in you that is not happy with the road you are on, thus all of the considerations of unsaved woman just so you can find what you are looking for. I think, though I might be wrong, that deep down you are running in this direction of finding any woman who is even unsaved and in another religion because the road you have been on has not worked. Thus you shifted gears. But looking ahead I think you'll find the same grief at the end of this road you felt at the end of the other road you left to begin this road course. What I am trying to do is to offer to you a "pit-stop," so you can refresh, re-examine, and go back out with a new car on a road course that will not end in grief. Ultimately, I want you to finish the race and hear the words: "well done good and faithful servant."
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
I have no one who I know of in my city who I can even discuss the Bible with even the minimum level of intelligence my heart yearns for.
Almost everyone if not everyone I have met in Milwaukee assumes things like deacons means everyone. Even though when they read a secular writing and it talks about a president it does not mean every president or postal workers salaries does not mean all peoples salaries. But when it comes to reading the Bible all the rules change. It seems to me it is more difficult to explain to these people the basics of Biblical interpretation than to teach a 12 year old calculus (or at least how to do calculus problems even if they do not understand what it means) and I am talking about some of the most advanced people I have met for discussing the Bible in my city
I do not mean this to insult anyone, this is simply my experience interacting with people. I am not saying that I am all great, actually I could learn very much, so I do not understand why it is so hard to find someone to teach me when my understanding is at such an elementary level. (perhaps the Bible is simple and I just see it as more simple the more I learn instead of more difficult because God does not want to make it hard to relate to him and know what he wants you to do. Yet their are so many chapters I do not understand I find this explanation insufficient.)
I totally understand my friend.
I feel your grief
In some ways we are living in a very biblically illiterate society as a whole even where there are tons of churches. I know why it has become like this but it would take me too long to go into all of that here. In one sentence, this has developed because of the lack of skilled Bible teachers along with the model of education that has been offered has not been within the trivium model of Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric (classical education; or the child, young man, fatherhood phases as Apostle John spoke about) so now people are stuck in grammar levels of knowledge.
As for having so many chapters that you don't understand I too understand that. I've heard many men and women say this to me before. I knew one brother who after many years of being a believer and trying to study the Bible on his own came forth and told me in private: "Dr. I just don't know what to believe anymore. This Bible is so confusing to me. Everything seems so disjointed and I just don't know how to make it make sense anymore."
But, of course, when I offered to him to do what I am going offer to you here below he was too prideful to receive the leadership's offer to help him grow. He continued to go his own way, studying with no person there to help him, to guide him, to encourage him. Well, his life did not turn out so well later on. He has spent years bouncing from one faith group to another shifting here, shifting there, and "being tossed around like the waves of the sea" as Paul said.
This naturally happens when we do not have mentors or those who are spiritual fathers at the advanced levels to help disciple us. This is exactly why Christ modeled for us the discipleship model. The Master spent three years with his students. Then the Master told them to go and make other students teaching them all that he had taught them. One of the best ways to translate the word Disciple in the gospels is to insert the word student. A disciple is a student.
Your email has touched my heart DTT. I really do feel for you and your circumstance.
So, I tell you what. I don't usually do this because I have a lot of other duties to carry on in other areas. However, let's do this. Let's get two books: Charles C Ryrie's book called: "Basic Theology" and then another called: "Major Bible Themes" by Lewis Sperry Chafer and John Walvoord.
If you go to the book store and get a copy of each book or order them online (cost about 30 to 40 dollars for both; maybe less if you order used copies online) I'll personally go with you through the books and you'll have access by book to one of the greatest Bible teachers in the world (Ryrie) and two of the greatest past Bible teachers in the world (Chafer and Walvoord) and you'll also have a personal teacher with me who has earned multiple advanced theology degrees from some very solid Bible teachers from a variety of different Colleges and Seminaries in the land. When Dr. Raegean joins in, when he has time, you'll have another scholar with many many years of advanced theological training from some of the most brillaint scholars in the land today, and he, in my opinion, is one of the brightest minds in Evangelicalism in the field of exegetical studies (detailed interpretation of specific texts with a focus on the grammar, history, and culture).
The Walvoord and Chafer book, Major Bible Themes, even has some study questions behind each chapter that will help guide you in your studies. What we can do is let you reach each chapter (about 3 to 5 pages), answer the questions at the end of each chapter, and then if you have specific questions from your readings you can ask me and myself and/or Dr. Raegean will be available to offer to you answers to your questions. We can use Ryrie's book as a deeper book should there some subject you want to dig deeper into as you study. For example, if after reading 4 or so pages on a subject in Chafer's book if something sparks your interest or you need a further discussion we will go to the larger book by Ryrie and examine the subject in more depth.
The ONLY RULES that will be in place are this: EVERY TIME a Scripture text is referenced you MUST look at it and read the actual text in Scripture and you MUST read the Chafer book from beginning to end without skipping around from one section to another. You must try and answer the study questions at the end of the chapters (I suggest getting some paper and writing down your answers). Lastly, as a RULE there will be no ARGUING with myself or Dr. Raegean. You can ask us questions and give us your thoughts and we will give you to the best of our ability the most biblical answer that is known to the best scholars within the Evangelical world. We may talk by email, phone, or even through paltalk or conference calls or other means like this (we'll figure this out shortly) but we are not going to ARGUE AND spend hours arguing with you. If you ask a question or several questions we will give you an answer and after you consider it and pray about it and look at Scripture if you just don't see it that way for now then we shall move along and we shall not get stuck in one spot arguing over an issue. This has to be because if not we would never get through the book as a whole in a reasonable amount of time, and our time is limited. Furthermore, it would be like you are in a college classroom arguing with your professor. Doing that is disrespectful and unacceptable as proper decorum when being taught by those who have labored in the Word for many years at advanced levels of training. Think of this rule in this light. You walk into your medical doctor's office and after 12 years of medical education and with 5 years in the medical field you ask him to diagnose what is wrong with your stomach ailment and the doctor examines you and tests you and then says he has seen this symptom for many years and is well versed in that area. He tells you he has a 99.9% success rate in resolving this problem if you will listen to his instructions. He then tells you what is the problem and tells you how it can be fixed and then you begin to argue with him and tell him that you read an article written by your local hardware store owner about something dealing with the stomach and you think the doctor does not know what he is talking about. Such an attitude like that is not acceptable and is disrespectful to the medical doctor. Now if you walk in with other Medical opinions from other qualified medical doctors that is one thing and is acceptable, but not those who are giving opinions without thorough research within that field. It is a James 3:1 issue.
I really want to see you grow DTT and I want you to advance in your knowledge of the Lord. I care for you and I want you to excel in the Lord. I want to see you grow in your ability to serve others in love. My heart hurts for the situation you are in and I know it must be a very frustrating situation not to have any teachers around you that you can trust, learn from, and be discipled by. In a way it not only hurts me but it makes me mad because here we are in our blessed country with areas where men and women can not get an honest biblical education from well qaulified men who love the Lord and his Word. My beloved America, founded by some great godly Fathers who loved the Lord and died with their own blood to give us this freedom and here we sit in this situation! :x
Well, it is what it is and all I can do is to try and help remedy this situation as I have opportunity.
I pray you will take this offer up brother. Had I had this type of offer back when I first needed this type of discipleship I would probably have been too stubborn and prideful to accept this gracious offer. But sitting where I sit now looking back knowing what I do today I see how helpful this would have been many years ago to my walk. I could have learned many things so much quicker and the Bible would have come together for me so much quicker had I had this type of opportunity you have sitting before you.
The Lord has heard your words and my heart has been moved to help you. Now, it is within your next step to step out in faith and receive our instruction and discipleship so that the Bible as a whole will make sense to you like it never has before.
Dr. K.R. Allen
PS: And if you don't have the money for the books and you really do want this level of discipleship then I'd go plead for it from a friend, parent, or from anyone who would listen. James 4:2c-3 says: "you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly . . ." God may use that as a lesson of humility in leading you to ask for help if it is needed.
I feel your grief
In some ways we are living in a very biblically illiterate society as a whole even where there are tons of churches. I know why it has become like this but it would take me too long to go into all of that here. In one sentence, this has developed because of the lack of skilled Bible teachers along with the model of education that has been offered has not been within the trivium model of Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric (classical education; or the child, young man, fatherhood phases as Apostle John spoke about) so now people are stuck in grammar levels of knowledge.
As for having so many chapters that you don't understand I too understand that. I've heard many men and women say this to me before. I knew one brother who after many years of being a believer and trying to study the Bible on his own came forth and told me in private: "Dr. I just don't know what to believe anymore. This Bible is so confusing to me. Everything seems so disjointed and I just don't know how to make it make sense anymore."
But, of course, when I offered to him to do what I am going offer to you here below he was too prideful to receive the leadership's offer to help him grow. He continued to go his own way, studying with no person there to help him, to guide him, to encourage him. Well, his life did not turn out so well later on. He has spent years bouncing from one faith group to another shifting here, shifting there, and "being tossed around like the waves of the sea" as Paul said.
This naturally happens when we do not have mentors or those who are spiritual fathers at the advanced levels to help disciple us. This is exactly why Christ modeled for us the discipleship model. The Master spent three years with his students. Then the Master told them to go and make other students teaching them all that he had taught them. One of the best ways to translate the word Disciple in the gospels is to insert the word student. A disciple is a student.
Your email has touched my heart DTT. I really do feel for you and your circumstance.
So, I tell you what. I don't usually do this because I have a lot of other duties to carry on in other areas. However, let's do this. Let's get two books: Charles C Ryrie's book called: "Basic Theology" and then another called: "Major Bible Themes" by Lewis Sperry Chafer and John Walvoord.
If you go to the book store and get a copy of each book or order them online (cost about 30 to 40 dollars for both; maybe less if you order used copies online) I'll personally go with you through the books and you'll have access by book to one of the greatest Bible teachers in the world (Ryrie) and two of the greatest past Bible teachers in the world (Chafer and Walvoord) and you'll also have a personal teacher with me who has earned multiple advanced theology degrees from some very solid Bible teachers from a variety of different Colleges and Seminaries in the land. When Dr. Raegean joins in, when he has time, you'll have another scholar with many many years of advanced theological training from some of the most brillaint scholars in the land today, and he, in my opinion, is one of the brightest minds in Evangelicalism in the field of exegetical studies (detailed interpretation of specific texts with a focus on the grammar, history, and culture).
The Walvoord and Chafer book, Major Bible Themes, even has some study questions behind each chapter that will help guide you in your studies. What we can do is let you reach each chapter (about 3 to 5 pages), answer the questions at the end of each chapter, and then if you have specific questions from your readings you can ask me and myself and/or Dr. Raegean will be available to offer to you answers to your questions. We can use Ryrie's book as a deeper book should there some subject you want to dig deeper into as you study. For example, if after reading 4 or so pages on a subject in Chafer's book if something sparks your interest or you need a further discussion we will go to the larger book by Ryrie and examine the subject in more depth.
The ONLY RULES that will be in place are this: EVERY TIME a Scripture text is referenced you MUST look at it and read the actual text in Scripture and you MUST read the Chafer book from beginning to end without skipping around from one section to another. You must try and answer the study questions at the end of the chapters (I suggest getting some paper and writing down your answers). Lastly, as a RULE there will be no ARGUING with myself or Dr. Raegean. You can ask us questions and give us your thoughts and we will give you to the best of our ability the most biblical answer that is known to the best scholars within the Evangelical world. We may talk by email, phone, or even through paltalk or conference calls or other means like this (we'll figure this out shortly) but we are not going to ARGUE AND spend hours arguing with you. If you ask a question or several questions we will give you an answer and after you consider it and pray about it and look at Scripture if you just don't see it that way for now then we shall move along and we shall not get stuck in one spot arguing over an issue. This has to be because if not we would never get through the book as a whole in a reasonable amount of time, and our time is limited. Furthermore, it would be like you are in a college classroom arguing with your professor. Doing that is disrespectful and unacceptable as proper decorum when being taught by those who have labored in the Word for many years at advanced levels of training. Think of this rule in this light. You walk into your medical doctor's office and after 12 years of medical education and with 5 years in the medical field you ask him to diagnose what is wrong with your stomach ailment and the doctor examines you and tests you and then says he has seen this symptom for many years and is well versed in that area. He tells you he has a 99.9% success rate in resolving this problem if you will listen to his instructions. He then tells you what is the problem and tells you how it can be fixed and then you begin to argue with him and tell him that you read an article written by your local hardware store owner about something dealing with the stomach and you think the doctor does not know what he is talking about. Such an attitude like that is not acceptable and is disrespectful to the medical doctor. Now if you walk in with other Medical opinions from other qualified medical doctors that is one thing and is acceptable, but not those who are giving opinions without thorough research within that field. It is a James 3:1 issue.
I really want to see you grow DTT and I want you to advance in your knowledge of the Lord. I care for you and I want you to excel in the Lord. I want to see you grow in your ability to serve others in love. My heart hurts for the situation you are in and I know it must be a very frustrating situation not to have any teachers around you that you can trust, learn from, and be discipled by. In a way it not only hurts me but it makes me mad because here we are in our blessed country with areas where men and women can not get an honest biblical education from well qaulified men who love the Lord and his Word. My beloved America, founded by some great godly Fathers who loved the Lord and died with their own blood to give us this freedom and here we sit in this situation! :x
Well, it is what it is and all I can do is to try and help remedy this situation as I have opportunity.
I pray you will take this offer up brother. Had I had this type of offer back when I first needed this type of discipleship I would probably have been too stubborn and prideful to accept this gracious offer. But sitting where I sit now looking back knowing what I do today I see how helpful this would have been many years ago to my walk. I could have learned many things so much quicker and the Bible would have come together for me so much quicker had I had this type of opportunity you have sitting before you.
The Lord has heard your words and my heart has been moved to help you. Now, it is within your next step to step out in faith and receive our instruction and discipleship so that the Bible as a whole will make sense to you like it never has before.
Dr. K.R. Allen
PS: And if you don't have the money for the books and you really do want this level of discipleship then I'd go plead for it from a friend, parent, or from anyone who would listen. James 4:2c-3 says: "you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly . . ." God may use that as a lesson of humility in leading you to ask for help if it is needed.
Good grief! Is this question still going on?
The answer is NO! All women have sinned and come short of the glory of God! They're sinners, every last one!
So are we men, top to bottom, one and all. Sinners, condemned for eternity but for one thing ... the grace of a Loving God.
So let's get over ourselves, any of us who are worried about finding "a moral woman" or man, and do two more constructive things, far more likely to get us somewhere.
The answer is NO! All women have sinned and come short of the glory of God! They're sinners, every last one!
So are we men, top to bottom, one and all. Sinners, condemned for eternity but for one thing ... the grace of a Loving God.
So let's get over ourselves, any of us who are worried about finding "a moral woman" or man, and do two more constructive things, far more likely to get us somewhere.
- Concentrate on becoming better mate material ourselves, and
- Leave God the task of timing and finding someone to whom we can best be a mate.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I'm sorry, but I almost choked on my drink when I came across this comment... :lol:
However, both a male and a female can (and should) be sexually pure. True, it's quite rare in our culture, but it's still possible. A man who has laid only with his three wives is just as sexually pure as his new fourth wife who herself is a virgin. Certainly you're not suggesting that only an unmarried and sexually untouched male would have any right to expect an unmarried and sexually untouched female, right?
As a sexually-active man who already has a wife, I know I would still expect virginity in any prospective future wives. Is that unreasonable? That is my right as a man. That doesn't mean I would immediately reject any widows or whores/fornicators out of hand. After all, if God Himself were to speak to me (as He did with Hosea), I would be a fool to ignore Him. Scripture is clear that widows and whores are perfectly available for marriage (as opposed to married women/adulteresses, which are not). But what it does mean is that I would expect any future wife to have demonstrated herself to be "pure", both in thought and in deed, not prone to jumping from man to man (whether in sexual relationships or not). I certainly wouldn't take a wife to myself that has not demonstrated both mental and sexual celibacy across several years.
Finally, as for the "double standard" question, I think we'd all agree that men are not women, and vice versa. In Scripture, sexual PURITY is expected in both males and females, yet sexual INEXPERIENCE is only expected in the females, as men could take multiple wives concurrently. If that's a double standard, so be it. Yet my own wife was NOT a physical virgin when we met, and I never batted an eye at the issue. Another Godly woman I once considered for marriage was not a virgin, and that fact was a non-issue for me as well. After all, what good is a hymen attached to an ungodly woman? As Believers, we should aim for the ideals while accepting the realities. In my family, we are raising our daughters to remain virgin until they are given in marriage, and our son to lay only with his wives. This is the standard we should be setting for ourselves and our offspring.
So rather than getting all worked up looking for "moral women" (whatever that might mean), let's make sure we behave as "moral men" and the upright women will gravitate towards us. I believe the gist of what Chaplain's Rose was saying is correct. Do moral (upright) women exist? Yes they do. Do moral (upright) men exist? Yes they do. Are either easy to come by? Absolutely not. It can be like trying to sift an acre of sand for a gemstone, but when you do find the precious one, you will appreciate them all the more. At least that's been my experience.
In His love,
David
I'm assuming that the use of the word "virgin" here is being applied loosely, since the context seems to actually suggest "sexually pure" or possibly "never had sex" rather than a sexually untouched girl. Despite what the modern teachers tell us, a MALE simply cannot be a "virgin". True virginity is a female-only concept.Chaplains Rose said:
However, both a male and a female can (and should) be sexually pure. True, it's quite rare in our culture, but it's still possible. A man who has laid only with his three wives is just as sexually pure as his new fourth wife who herself is a virgin. Certainly you're not suggesting that only an unmarried and sexually untouched male would have any right to expect an unmarried and sexually untouched female, right?
As a sexually-active man who already has a wife, I know I would still expect virginity in any prospective future wives. Is that unreasonable? That is my right as a man. That doesn't mean I would immediately reject any widows or whores/fornicators out of hand. After all, if God Himself were to speak to me (as He did with Hosea), I would be a fool to ignore Him. Scripture is clear that widows and whores are perfectly available for marriage (as opposed to married women/adulteresses, which are not). But what it does mean is that I would expect any future wife to have demonstrated herself to be "pure", both in thought and in deed, not prone to jumping from man to man (whether in sexual relationships or not). I certainly wouldn't take a wife to myself that has not demonstrated both mental and sexual celibacy across several years.
Finally, as for the "double standard" question, I think we'd all agree that men are not women, and vice versa. In Scripture, sexual PURITY is expected in both males and females, yet sexual INEXPERIENCE is only expected in the females, as men could take multiple wives concurrently. If that's a double standard, so be it. Yet my own wife was NOT a physical virgin when we met, and I never batted an eye at the issue. Another Godly woman I once considered for marriage was not a virgin, and that fact was a non-issue for me as well. After all, what good is a hymen attached to an ungodly woman? As Believers, we should aim for the ideals while accepting the realities. In my family, we are raising our daughters to remain virgin until they are given in marriage, and our son to lay only with his wives. This is the standard we should be setting for ourselves and our offspring.
So rather than getting all worked up looking for "moral women" (whatever that might mean), let's make sure we behave as "moral men" and the upright women will gravitate towards us. I believe the gist of what Chaplain's Rose was saying is correct. Do moral (upright) women exist? Yes they do. Do moral (upright) men exist? Yes they do. Are either easy to come by? Absolutely not. It can be like trying to sift an acre of sand for a gemstone, but when you do find the precious one, you will appreciate them all the more. At least that's been my experience.
In His love,
David
to answer the question, yes there are moral woman out there
perfect? of course not, and you and i would not deserve one
can you and i become more perfect? yep, and that needs to be our focus. you want a woman to prepare herself for you. what are you doing to prepare yourself for her?
dr allen has made you a very generous offer. what will you do with it?
change your focus from what you want, to becoming what your Lord wants and having done all, to stand. and see what He will do
perfect? of course not, and you and i would not deserve one
can you and i become more perfect? yep, and that needs to be our focus. you want a woman to prepare herself for you. what are you doing to prepare yourself for her?
dr allen has made you a very generous offer. what will you do with it?
change your focus from what you want, to becoming what your Lord wants and having done all, to stand. and see what He will do
A
Anonymous
Guest
CecilW said:
Yeah...my thought, exactly !
CecilW said:
Cecil, once again...you nailed it !
Blessings,
Fairlight
A
Anonymous
Guest
cnystrom said:
Amen !
Blessings,
Fairlight
I would like to add that not all men are fixated on virginity. I personally do not care. I mean you could not be a virgin and still have done nothing wrong (you are a window, you were raped, etc.). I do care about character, but no one is perfect and even if a women did something wrong in the past to lose her virginity, it would not be any sort of automatic disqualifier for me any more than if you confessed you were a shoplifter or something else in your past. To me it is not who you were but who you are now, and who God is making you into that is important. We are all dead to our sins and alive in Christ.
P.S. I do not think I could ever ask a woman I wanted to marry for an STD test. It would be like asking for a prenuptial agreement. I would not marry someone that I did not have full trust in.
P.S. I do not think I could ever ask a woman I wanted to marry for an STD test. It would be like asking for a prenuptial agreement. I would not marry someone that I did not have full trust in.
Ylop,
lol...you beat me to it. Now that is just too funny! :lol:
lol...you beat me to it. Now that is just too funny! :lol:
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
Do the following look like the correct book?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... dition=new
http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Theology-Ch ... 248&sr=1-2
http://productsearch.barnesandnoble.com ... %20&pos=-1
As of September 1 2010 when I am writing this. I have very SPECIFIC areas in which I lack knowledge that cause me to not understand large portions of the Bible.
Essentially in sections of "prophecy" the Bible is often talking about specific nations or people doing specific historical things (although written about those things in the future.) Many times when people read the prophecy talking about what a nation did, instead of finding out what really happened, they make up some metaphor and than try to apply it to their own life, and have created arbitrary ethical ideas out of their feelings and emotions and deceitful heart as well as demonic promptings that they all falsely associate with promptings of the Holy Spirit as they read prophecy.
Although a prophet may teach moral teachings, often people mistake historical events they describe as moral teachings. There are some areas where I can tell very clearly they seem to be talking about historical events but I can not figure out what because I do not know about Bible History well enough. This is better than my previous situation where I simply guessed how it applied to me and thought I knew something. But I really would like to know more about Bible History otherwise I will not understand large portions of the "prophetic books" like Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc. They often mention specific nations who I do not know enough about their history to understand what is going on (and I suspect I may have to go to other historical documents outside the Bible in order to understand.)
It is important to me to understand the history so I can know which are literal historical events and which are metaphors for either historical events and or moral teachings. If I do not know the history it becomes harder to tell the difference and may result in creating arbitrary moral rules as many have done.
Second I should know geography better (although some Bible geography is highly debated, where secularists put something in a different location than the Bible seems to teach, but Bible "teachers" go with the secularist answer.)
Third I need to know Greek and Hebrew. It has come to a point for me, where many concepts that are very important and quite essential to me, can not be determined because of my lack of greek knowledge.
For example NIV says sexual immoral where as other translations use words like fornicators. The word fornicator often refers to unmarried people having sex with unmarried peoople from what I understand in modern English, but the Greek word is another word yet, so I do not really know if that is what the greek word porneia (something like that) means. Now this is the most basic of teachings, yet because I do not know Greek, I can not know even the most basic of teachings with confidence. Generally when in doubt I avoid doing such things, but I can not really teach to others unless I know. And it seems like even such basic doctrine depends on me knowing the Greek and Hebrew language.
So the areas I need help in are very specific, and without them I have trouble understanding even what I think would be some of the most basic of doctrine.
Essentially in sections of "prophecy" the Bible is often talking about specific nations or people doing specific historical things (although written about those things in the future.) Many times when people read the prophecy talking about what a nation did, instead of finding out what really happened, they make up some metaphor and than try to apply it to their own life, and have created arbitrary ethical ideas out of their feelings and emotions and deceitful heart as well as demonic promptings that they all falsely associate with promptings of the Holy Spirit as they read prophecy.
Although a prophet may teach moral teachings, often people mistake historical events they describe as moral teachings. There are some areas where I can tell very clearly they seem to be talking about historical events but I can not figure out what because I do not know about Bible History well enough. This is better than my previous situation where I simply guessed how it applied to me and thought I knew something. But I really would like to know more about Bible History otherwise I will not understand large portions of the "prophetic books" like Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc. They often mention specific nations who I do not know enough about their history to understand what is going on (and I suspect I may have to go to other historical documents outside the Bible in order to understand.)
It is important to me to understand the history so I can know which are literal historical events and which are metaphors for either historical events and or moral teachings. If I do not know the history it becomes harder to tell the difference and may result in creating arbitrary moral rules as many have done.
Second I should know geography better (although some Bible geography is highly debated, where secularists put something in a different location than the Bible seems to teach, but Bible "teachers" go with the secularist answer.)
Third I need to know Greek and Hebrew. It has come to a point for me, where many concepts that are very important and quite essential to me, can not be determined because of my lack of greek knowledge.
For example NIV says sexual immoral where as other translations use words like fornicators. The word fornicator often refers to unmarried people having sex with unmarried peoople from what I understand in modern English, but the Greek word is another word yet, so I do not really know if that is what the greek word porneia (something like that) means. Now this is the most basic of teachings, yet because I do not know Greek, I can not know even the most basic of teachings with confidence. Generally when in doubt I avoid doing such things, but I can not really teach to others unless I know. And it seems like even such basic doctrine depends on me knowing the Greek and Hebrew language.
So the areas I need help in are very specific, and without them I have trouble understanding even what I think would be some of the most basic of doctrine.
Yes those books are the right ones. Chafer/Walvoord's book will be our primary study tool to begin with and the other work by Ryrie will be a deeper reference work.
As for prophecy these books will be a big help to you in that. As for Greek and Hebrew, one must understand that the Bible can still be understood without skills in those areas. It may take a little more work but for the most part, except in some specific areas, you can do fine without it, especially if you find some scholars in the field to follow and trust in that area.
Well, it sounds like you are ready.
Once you get those books we will get started with the readings and discussions etc.
Allen
As for prophecy these books will be a big help to you in that. As for Greek and Hebrew, one must understand that the Bible can still be understood without skills in those areas. It may take a little more work but for the most part, except in some specific areas, you can do fine without it, especially if you find some scholars in the field to follow and trust in that area.
Well, it sounds like you are ready.
Once you get those books we will get started with the readings and discussions etc.
Allen