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Do moral women exist?

while I was still searching
but not finding—
I found one upright man among a thousand,
but not one upright woman among them all.

Ecclesiastes 7:28 NIV
 
Ahhhhh....I never thought you would ask. Let me tell you that they do.

For starters let me describe a few that I know: loving, intelligent, helpful, true helpmates, wonderful friends, prayer warriors, sharp, passionate for the word, devout in worship, keen, insightful, gorgeous, elegant, kind, gracious, patient, generous, and well disciplined in endurance through life's trials.

What a blessing of the Lord.
 
How do you find an unmarried moral woman who is a virgin or widow and U.S. citizen?

I have trouble finding women who are honest, many of them are willing to be dishonest in order to avoid offending people. The result is that I am greatly offended much more than if they said their statement that they think would be offensive.
 
Let me agree with Dr. Allen. Several years ago, the realization that godly women of all ages, shapes and colors are a delight to be around. Their fellowship adds to the essence of churches and families around the world. I have found that yes, there are many moral, wonderful women all around us. We need eyes to see and a heart to perceive. Remember the song, "Looking for Love in all the Wrong places"?
 
The reality is that we are all (men and women alike) born in sin and we are all sinful by nature. So can you say that any of us are truly moral? And if there are no moral women, then there are equally few moral men. We are Human and therefore, we need Jesus as our savior. If anyone could be called moral, then that person wouldn't need a savior, would they?

SweetLissa
 
Lissa,
True it is about our sinful nature. But if I understand the context of the thread, it is talking about a woman that has standards in keeping with God's. There are standards for us that are not about our efforts to attain salvation.
 
And women could likewise say "Are there any men who are in keeping with God's word?" Last time I looked there were a whole lot more women than men in churches.

As for DTT's request for "virgins or widows" maybe he could think about the fact that a woman might not be a physical virgin but she may have been saved and may be pure in that fashion. There are many, many women who have made poor judgement calls in their youth who would be exceptional wives, mothers and friends. I have known people who have "saved themselves" for marriage, but imagine this

A young woman is raised in a non-christian home
She is taught about birth control and feminism
She has sexual contact with a boyfriend. They break up
She finds the Lord. She becomes a believer. She is Forgiven. She is white as snow. She is a "new creation" and therefore she is not spoiled regardless of her "non-virgin" state.
So who is a man to say that this woman isn't good enough for him. Or moral enough. Or anything. If she is good enough for our Lord, then she certainly is good enough for a Christian man.
Don't write off a woman because she has a past. We all have a past.
 
And by demanding to marry a virgin, a man is saying that God's forgiveness is not good enough for him. That is pretty bold.
 
Hummm...first how to find these women: go start making disciples in the Lord. One thing that I find is that so many want multiple wives but they are not being faithful in the Great Commission. Start an evangelism ministry in your neighborhood. Win people to Christ. Start a Bible study club. Plant a house church with another elder or two and go reach the lost. If one is not sure how to do any of that then that person would do better to go get some discipleship from someone older in the Lord first as that person is not ready for a wife and family, which requires skill, leadership, and management skills.

Second, as you go about trying to win people to Christ and build others up in Christ God will then honor all that you need. Matthew 6:33 says: "Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness and all these things you need will given unto you." Making disciples is the fundamental calling we have from the Messiah. I'm not sure why God would send someone a wife or multiple wives if that person is unfaithful in the Great Commission. Sometimes it does happen but it sure would be nice to find some men who are broken hearted for the lost who would go out to wi the lost and if by providence a wife or two developed from that then great.

Third, is not 1 John 1:9 so rich and gracious to help us understand God's view of those who turn to him from their sin? What a blessed text. "If we confess our sins, he [Christ] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that it saved wretch like me. I once was lost but I'm found, I once was blind but now I see. Grace Grace Marvelous Grace! How sweet that shall sound to the ladies who need to meet Christ and find that soul cleansing life from him. And then they shall be radiant, like we, the church who were guilty, stained, defiled but are now being made into a virgin without spot or wrinkle (Eph. 5:27). What a testimony of God's grace. Where sin did abound grace did much more abound (Rom. 5:20).
 
That was interesting Dr. Allen.

I hadn't planned to participate in this topic, but felt compelled to add a little story of my own once I read your post.

I received a message one day from someone I had never come across before...it was a very simple message... "Hi" was all it said. I thought how curious...I thought about it for a few days and figured she was probably interested in the profile I had put up but still was unsure what to think of such a brief message... I replied very simply back to her "Hello." Apparently that was enough to encourage her because we began to exchange simple general email messages. After 10 or 12 of those it didn't seem that I was learning too much about her and thought I would see if she was interested in the Gospel of Luke. I asked her if she would mind if our messages were about Bible scriptures. She responded that she thought that was "a very novel approach" and a "first" for her in building a relationship. So I copied and pasted a number of verses that I wanted to cover into the body of my next email. I wrote a brief introduction and then a concluding paragraph with my thoughts about the passages. Nothing too terribly deep, but simply rephrased the topics in the texts and gave examples of modern situations that they may apply to. I did this every day. Eventually she began to reply to them with a little of her own input. I was delighted to see this. After a month passed she began to reveal a considerable amount of personal information to me. She had been raised Catholic, but had a number of questions that her Priest and others were unable to answer to her satisfaction. While in college she became agnostic. Upon graduating and working on another degree she met some Muslim individuals that were very kind and friendly. In fact she told me they were nicer than the Catholics or Christians that she knew, and she knew a lot of them. She was all but persuaded to become a Muslim, but then they ran into her unanswered questions from her Catholic upbringing and were unable to answer them to her satisfaction as well. So here I come...walking into this situation, eyes wide open but having no idea what kind of grilling I was eventually in for. She wasn't ignorant of the scriptures, but was lacking in understanding and application. We began to communicate by Yahoo Messenger so we could have "conversations". This is when my theology was tested to it's extreme! I felt like a senior theology student taking all his finals verbally at the same time! I tried to remain as calm and cool as possible, and apparently succeeded although I was not all that calm and collected on the inside. We chatted for about two hours, and finally her questions and statements were becoming illogical. I had refuted and exhausted the concerns and misunderstandings that she had always had. I finally made a statement "Now your arguments simply are not logical, and I think you are grasping at straws." At this point she made a statement that made me feel 10 feet tall..."You are the first person I have ever met that could answer all my questions, and not only that your answers made sense and now I understand."

She became my fourth wife almost a year ago... : )
 
A little story
indeed...

A beautifully amazing story of the Holy Spirit's work, not only in the life of a lady with unanswered questions who was yet to meet her Lord and know her husband...

But also in the life of an inadequately prepared believer. This is perfectly normal, because it is only with the help of the Holy Spirit that we succeed in having the right answers. It's not what we know and share that saves, it's what He does through us with the little bit we do have. It's as if He multiplies the little loaves and fish, to feed others.

Working for the Lord is so sweet because of this.
 
Morality is an undeniable problem these days that we all have to deal with. When it's as declined as in these days, of course the limitations for what kind of people are available is going to be more narrow and limited.

But moral women do exist in those who truly follow the Lord. And others can be 'snatched from the fire' as was discussed. And others just need encouragement and incentive to go against the flow of current life and lifestyle, even when they know the Lord. It seems to me most fit into one of these 3 categories.
 
sweetlissa said:
And by demanding to marry a virgin, a man is saying that God's forgiveness is not good enough for him. That is pretty bold.

Excellent point!
 
sweetlissa said:
And by demanding to marry a virgin, a man is saying that God's forgiveness is not good enough for him. That is pretty bold.
If virginity meant nothing, guys wouldn't want it in a girl. You can't blame a guy for wanting what is natural.

I am willing to take a non-virgin. I'm also willing to take women damaged by this world. That doesn't mean I wouldn't rather the girl not have been damaged to begin with.

Who the man chooses to make his is up to him. What pleases him pleases him. Do not rag on a man for wanting what is only natural. It's not that God's forgiveness is not enough. That's emotionally twisting such matters. It has nothing to do with forgiveness. If a guy wanted a girl without tattoos and rejected one because she had many, that has nothing to do with forgiving her or not. Same with weight, hair color and any other issue a man may have with a woman. What pleases him pleases him. What he looks for in a wife, he looks for.
 
Re: Justice or Mercy in the Law of Liberty

Sure, you are correct that preference is one thing. That is a personal conscience issue. But if one were to imply that this all that is allowed by God that is totally another thing.

No error is made in seeking a virgin. Yet no error is done in taking to oneself someone who is, just like all of us, being restored, and is restored by the grace of God.

Theologically, all of us were vile, stained, and prostitutes before the holy Christ. Yet he took us to himself and is restoring us to himself in grace. With the Bible using the metaphor of marriage our union with Christ it looks like this on a personal basis and corporate basis:

Personal Union with Christ Metaphor
1. We are lost, fallen, depraved, stained, and defiled.
2. The Father makes an arrangement/selection of someone for his Son Christ.
3. Christ pays the price for the person
4. Christ sends another of himself, the Holy Spirit, to take his bride unto himself and draw her to himself.
5. The Holy Spirit draws and renwews the one bought by Christ and places that person in Christ, seals the person, and gives unto that person a positional righteousness.

Corporate Union with Christ Metaphor

1. The bride of Christ is fallen, depraved, sinful, and defiled.
2. The Father has agreed with the Son that if he dies for the people that he will elect in the Son a people to take unto himself. The agreement is reached and redemption and selection are set for a people.
3. The Spirit draws that body of people unto Christ.
4. The Spirit works with that entire body of people making them holy.
5. At some unknown hour Christ returns to fetch his bride and he takes all of the bride back with him physically to where they all unite in one place together and then celebrate the marriage feast of the union. The bride is given unto Christ as spotless, pure, radiant virgin (even though she was historically defiled in the past).

Therefore, we must look at the thrust of the Bible and follow the metaphor theologically within our daily practice. If someone, and I'm not saying this is what is being said but just providing a theological basis for a right belief, does want a sound theology they must consider this marriage metaphor of the Bible.

If a person were to say: it is ungodly for a man to take unto himself anyone other than a virgin or widow then the marriage metaphor of Christ is broken. The theological principle is that by grace alone we, the bride, are being restored unto Christ, the groom and head. Thus one cannot without error say that a man cannot take unto himself someone who is not historically pure because Christ takes us, his bride, who are by far nowhere close to being historically pure. When we come to Christ we are made pure, but it is not on our basis but on the basis of grace where we are cleansed and restored, and thus given to Christ clean. We were once in union with Satan and then we were brought into union with Christ.

In application it would then mean this: a man may take unto himself someone who has been historically defiled so long as that person is now clean in Christ. Historical sin in one's past no longer rules and reigns if Christ has now taken that person unto himself by grace which is more powerful than any sin. If Christ has accepted that person and cleansed that person then we too can follow in the footsteps of Christ and take a person he has taken. To say otherwise would, of course, cast a blight on the character of Christ who himself has taken unto himself as a bride a people who are not historically clean but now by grace are considered and seen as clean.

Furthermore, a man can has the liberty in the Lord's law of liberty of mercy and grace that he can give grace unto a woman and be an aid to her healing from her past. This is a choice to choose and love like Christ chose to love in mercy and grace.

If someone demands and makes it an absolute requirement in all cases in all places at all times that a Christian cannot marry someone who has been defiled in the past then such a theological position attempts to tarnish the very work of the Lord. It suggests that we must act in a way that even he, Christ, did not act or require. I suppose it is like the Pharisees who were acting in such ways that by the extra rules they were acting and living by far more than was required of God himself. Pride was their root problem. But if Christ can restore us to take us into himself how much more so can he make a person with historical sin clean enough for a man to marry who also still has sin in his past as well? That is the marvelous nature of grace, which is so often lost in man's religion of self-effort and pride. Christ saw the grace of the Father enough to cleanse us so that we could be in union with him and his Father. Thanks be unto the Lord for such grace. Grace is the sweetest sound to the ear for a saint for without it none of us would have any hope and any relationship at all.

Likewise, there are ladies out there who have indeed sinned in their past. Historically they are defiled, like we all were in the past sinners. Some of the sin was purposeful choice and some by default but all still with historical sin. But with the marvelous grace of Christ these ladies can be restored, and are restored in Christ, just as we have been through a power that is more powerful than sin, namely through the love of grace of our beloved Lord whose love and grace conquers and is greater than all sin.

In summary a person has to choose one or the other as the thrust of his theology. Either justice must reign or mercy and grace must reign. They are exclusive and cannot be on equal grounds. If one chooses to read the Bible with the glasses of justice on then they will naturally gravitate towards the idea of justice and works and efforts as the key to what is good and allowed by God. Error is to be met with justice and condemnation. But if one chooses to read the Bible from a set of glasses called grace then they will recognize and see justice, good works and bad works, yet they will focus and choose to operate and allow others to operate within the sphere of mercy and grace. By the law of non-contradiction one cannot view the Bible without one theme taking precedence over another. So which one does the Bible suggest we, his mercy children, view as the supreme perspective to view all of life through? The Bible says: "so speak ye and so do, as about by a law of liberty to be judged, for the judgment without kindness [is] to him not having done kindness, and exult doth kindness over judgment" (James 2:12-13 Youngs Literal Translation). The ESV says: "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment."

When I stand before the Lord to give an account of my life I today have to choose how I want to be viewed by the overall attitude and actions I have lived in life. My goal, though imperfect as they are, is to stand there and be seen before Christ as one who loved in mercy above and over justice and judgment. I want to read the Bible, view life, and treat people I meet with the mercy and grace of Christ, just like he saw the law of mercy and grace as more important for his relationship with me. Christ chose to live in liberty and apply grace and mercy to me. Could he have treated me with justice by his own choice? Sure he could have. It would have been just for God to judge me and condemn me. It was within his right personally. But, he chose to apply mercy and grace. Therefore, since I am a mercy child, and since I'm commanded to love like he has loved me and since he has commanded that I act and live under the law of liberty, I want to view the world through the glasses of mercy which triumps and takes precedent over justice and judgment. Thus, I can, and any man can without error choose to treat people as Christ has so treated us (with liberty), which includes the taking unto oneself a bride who has been historically defiled. To restrict one's freedom and liberty and call it error in this area is to also call Christ's liberty and actions with us as error. This is how mercy children live and act because we are groomed this way by the groom, our head Christ. We view life, or at least attempt to, through the mercy glasses. That is one way in which we love as Christ has so loved us.

Dr. Allen

PS Over the years I've seen that those who live and view life through the lens of justice or in the sphere of justice that they tend to also be critical people, skeptical people, very harsh and ill spirited people. From my observations with disciples and students those that live by the law of justice they are also apparently at times are oblivious to their own sins in the past and present and tend to lean towards hypocrisy. They condemn others for their sin yet they do and act in like, if not the same, ways of those they condemn. Again, I'm not saying this is the case here with DTT or others posting thus far herein on this thread. I can't read the heart so I could not say for sure. But those who live with the justice focus most of the time don't even see it or know they are living in this way with a hypocritical, skeptical, critical, and judgmental outlook on life. Sociologically speaking from anthropological studies this seems to be a correct view of those who focus more on justice than they do upon grace and mercy. The focus of one's life makes a huge difference in how one relates to others in life. In personal relationships, church relationships, and in employment relationships these people tend to be hard to get along with as they tend to be judgmental, critical, quick to judge and discard others if they do not match up to their perceived view of what is just and holy. It is clearly a contrast to the way in which Christ would have us live as mercy children. Do mercy children acknowledge error and sin in one's life, past and present? Of course. To grant mercy implies there is something needed for mercy. But mercy children choose to make mercy a higher law than the lawe of justice.
 
sadanyagci said:
Who the man chooses to make his is up to him. What pleases him pleases him. Do not rag on a man for wanting what is only natural. It's not that God's forgiveness is not enough. That's emotionally twisting such matters. It has nothing to do with forgiveness. If a guy wanted a girl without tattoos and rejected one because she had many, that has nothing to do with forgiving her or not. Same with weight, hair color and any other issue a man may have with a woman. What pleases him pleases him. What he looks for in a wife, he looks for.

I think the difference is, from my own pov of course, is that there is no moral judgement when it comes to looks usually, a man might prefer fair hair to dark, but that doesn't mean he thinks dark haired women are beneath him, it is just what he prefers.

A woman might like a man to be clean shaven, than bearded but that doesn't mean she thinks bearded men are morally tarnished.
The fact is, if you claim to be reborn than surely you should be judged by your current behaviour, not your previous behaviour, otherwise what is the point if you are going to be judged as 'less than' ?

It seems to me to be a very tragic attitude, not that it personally effects me at least, but that doesn't mean that it saddens me that people still hold those attitudes.
 
Amen Isabella.

sadanyagci, yes I agree. I don't think it is being said it must be a requirement. I'm just offering a theological basis as to why one cannot make it a requirement. To go that far would violate some key doctrines of scripture. One is free to choose a virgin but one is also free not to choose a virgin so long as that one is cleansed and forgiven in Christ.
 
"it is only with the help of the Holy Spirit that we succeed in having the right answers"

Yes you are so right. And even though I was struggling within, the Holy Spirit was with me and the answers just came out...I said no more or no less than what she needed to hear. I hope my story didn't come across as arrogant or prideful in that it was my own knowledge that brought forth the answers for her.

I found out much later that one of the reasons that she tested me so thoroughly, and continued to do so for some time, was that she had intended to keep her virginity for her husband. She met a man and he won her heart. She committed to him and even made the mistake of allowing him to be with her. About 6 months later he decided that she really wasn't the "one" for him. This of course crushed her. He was the only man she had ever been with until we were married. When she explained these things to me I told her that I felt bad that a man had treated her that way. I told her that if she wanted me to, I could perform a little ceremony before we consummated our covenant, symbolically restoring her virginity that she could choose to give it freely to me and be my virgin bride. She was elated at the opportunity to do this.
 
Scarecrow, is it not such a blessing to be free to live in the law of love through grace and mercy? How refreshing and encouraging. What a neat testimony of mercy taking priority over justice and judgment. GRACE, MERCY, such sweet words to the ears of grace and mercy children.
 
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