Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are you

[Yaakov]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

Chris is right. There must be a separation of truth from error. There
must, therefore, be discussion (prayerful and honestly seeking the truth). If we do not know God as he really is, then we are not serving Him as we should. All of us have come to know, for example, that polygyny is righteous on His.eyes. Are there other things? Assuredly, and I am constantly.studying. Shall we not discuss these thongs with one another? Shall we not strive for the unity.of knowledge?

 

[NetWatchR]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

I would agree that there does need to be continuous study by each Christian as to what is truth. What is required, what is prohibited, what is optional? But, is this the place to have those discussions? I've heard it stated that, although there are many important topics to discuss, this forum is about Biblical Families. What is a biblical family, how do you get one, maintain one, where is the support for when (not if) I screw up?

If we want to begin diverging into different areas, then we may need to set up the forums differently and redefine the Mission Statement. Or, will it be have a Forum front-end with a select few participating in a Church back-end? But then doesn't that give it the appearance of a "secret" society, which we should avoid.

It is a very pivotal question that needs to be decided before progressing. Do you want to establish a Church, in which ALL topics MUST eventually be addressed. Or, stay a forum in which only certain (pick and choose) topics are discussed openly.

 

[andrew]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

Chris, I accept your apology, but maybe you were correct to drop the convo. We're not going to converge on this one.

I think the About Us page is crystal clear and is great as written. I think the problem is that the line that is being drawn is not where you (or others) would have drawn it.

Maybe the problem is your use of the phrase "Christian organization". Think of this instead as "an organization made up of Christians who serve the body of Christ and the world outside by sharing what we've learned about the biblical structure of the family". There are all kinds of ways we can serve Christ, and one of those ways might be to be a systematic theologian (though I have my doubts). The way the leadership of this organization has chosen to serve is to focus on the truths of the bible as they apply to family life; other 'truths' that interfere with that core mission may be important, but they are not important in this context. They're a distraction.

The thing that brings people to this site and this group is that they need help getting their minds around biblical marriage and family. We can focus here on what we have in common, based on the mission statement and other information published on the About Us page, and work together to help those who seek, or we can look for things to disagree on and be disagreeable about.

A story:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What denomination?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

I know, I know. Nobody thinks the thing they want to divide over is as trivial as that. That's not the point. It's a reductio ad absurdum argument; the problems start much earlier in the iteration.

Lots more could be said here, but I think we're beating a dead horse. What you call a weakness I call a strength. It's because BF is wired the way it is that you and I can even be having this conversation. I like that.

 

[andrew]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

Jay, striving for truth is great, sharpening each other's countenance as we go, etc., etc. That all comes to a screeching halt when one faction takes control of the group and silences other voices.

And when it comes to "knowing God as he really is", do you make any allowance for human experience? Human finiteness? Who is the person here that definitively "knows God as he really is", that the rest of us can all sit at the feet of? Have you changed any of your beliefs over the course of your life? Do you think you might change any more, or have you actually "arrived"?

Another story:

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a SPEAR!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a SNAKE!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he:
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a TREE!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a FAN!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a ROPE!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Each of us in his meager, finite attempt to understand the infinite God brings limitations of capacity, biased questions that shape the answers we think we're getting, and even unresolved wounds and issues that drive our inquiries and expectations. That's just humility. Anybody that thinks he's "figured God out" is putting himself as God's equal.

Jesus had some words for those that positioned themselves as teachers and gatekeepers but didn't lift a finger to help those that needed help. This ministry is about helping others find the truth of God's design for families, as recorded in the bible. It really is that simple.

 

[andrew]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

From what I understand there is a line, Faith in the Kingdom of Heaven, and Faith in the Salvation work of the Son of God for your entry.

The way I read the bible, anybody who believes in the resurrection of Christ and confesses him as Lord is on the same team (see Rom 10:9). I think that corresponds pretty closely to what you just said....

 

[andrew]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

I would agree that there does need to be continuous study by each Christian as to what is truth. What is required, what is prohibited, what is optional? But, is this the place to have those discussions? I've heard it stated that, although there are many important topics to discuss, this forum is about Biblical Families. What is a biblical family, how do you get one, maintain one, where is the support for when (not if) I screw up?

That is a beautiful summary of the more extended discussion on the About Us page. You get it.

If we want to begin diverging into different areas, then we may need to set up the forums differently and redefine the Mission Statement.

Or we can just resist the temptation to go off the rails, or we can have friendly discussions where we compare viewpoints and walk away still friends, instead of watching factions wrestle for control of the group so they can impose some direction on it other than what it already is. As long as we're faithful to the original vision and mission, both of those other options are on the table.

Or, will it be have a Forum front-end with a select few participating in a Church back-end? But then doesn't that give it the appearance of a "secret" society, which we should avoid.

Nothing secret about it. I'm going to start a fellowship because I believe God has called and equipped me to do so; that train has already left the station. I'll publish more details as I have them, and you can either participate or not; that's between you and God. Those that think I'm doing it wrong are free to start their own fellowships, and we can compare notes (or at least I'd be willing to do that...) on what's working and what's not. Ideally, some day BF would have a whole list of fellowships, each with its own distinctive flavor, that those who are drawn to the website over the issue of biblical family could check out and find a body to fellowship with. No secrets.

It is a very pivotal question that needs to be decided before progressing. Do you want to establish a Church, in which ALL topics MUST eventually be addressed. Or, stay a forum in which only certain (pick and choose) topics are discussed openly.

I don't see that as the choice presented. I am in the process of establishing a fellowship of like-minded men, and I will continue to participate here in the threads that are more on point with what the bible teaches about family, while continuing to pretty much ignore other topics unless they are of particular interest to me. I don't see a dichotomy there at all.

(For the record, I don't agree that a church MUST eventually address ALL topics, although if someone else wants to start a church where that's the rule, that's their prerogative....)

 

[NetWatchR]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

I'm cool with that.

 

[andrew]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

You're a cool guy!

 

[nathan]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

Here's a quick recap of Biblical Families, since we don't make a big deal out of talking about ourselves - preferring to focus on the job God has given us (which is really not that evident on the forums, I know). I've only skimmed the recent part of this thread, so maybe it helps some, maybe not.

We do not wish to be a church/denomination. We are an unapologetically Christian ministry that is focused on supporting families who understand or are coming to understand a loving, Biblical, patriarchal view of family. Thus our About Us page is enough, and we will not be holding folks to a further doctrinal standard, beyond what we see as the Gospel. If you are beyond that boundary, then our ministry to you becomes evangelical, not family-oriented, and that's not our ministry focus, though it is the heart of every individual involved.

At this point we need to make an important distinction: what we teach, whether it be in newsletter, articles, or at retreats, will be very much within the clear circle of Biblical Christianity that you see defined in the About Us page - especially since most of it will be family-oriented. We will NOT be getting in to major (or minor) doctrinal issues beyond that, in no way has God called us to that. And we will not be goaded into supporting someone else's pet issues either. But - this defines our TEACHING, not our limits of fellowship. Many folks who consider themselves Christians and believe the Gospel, but come from hugely different perspectives on many Biblical issues, can and do participate at Biblical Families - on the forum, at retreats, and they are welcome to do so. They are NOT welcome to push their particular perspectives on non-family, non-Gospel issues on folks - not at retreats, not in the forums (at least without getting a response here). This has served us well since we adopted it, and we make no apologies for it. The 'truth will out' - means for us that we don't live in fear of any who may be in some type of doctrinal error - we rather prefer to believe that we will be a positive influence on them.

We are really glad that Jesus said: "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, by the love you have for one another.” and not "by how well you hold to a fill-in-the-blank doctrine." You can believe anything, and still be a complete....er, jerk (I toned that down.) Therefore, we will hold to Matthew 7:16, and judge by the fruit we see in someone's life, family, or ministry. Any further judgement, we leave to God.

One further note: we fully expect to be supporting more and more local groups, and it will be up to those groups to define any further doctrinal guidelines that are important to them. Again, we don't want to be a denomination - but a support ministry. Now, given the independence and colorful variety found in the current patriarchal Christian 'scene', anyone that attempts to define their boundaries too rigidly will likely find themselves in a lonely group. And that would be a shame, because one the greatest gifts God has given me in 18 years in this community, is the ability to say "Wow, I think you're wrong about that, brother - but lets worship our Father now, OK?" That's been pretty awesome.

 

[blitziod]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

One of the things I like about BF is that it does not try to be a church or denomination with a set of doctrines. I think this would be divisive and take away from it's mission. Forget polygamy for a second. Imagine other works based missions. Would a baptist hospital turn away a catholic or even a Muslim or atheist or even a satanist for that matter with a gunshot wound? No they would fulfill the mission of good work they where called to for the greater glory of God. They would offer help in his name even for a sinner and in some cases this can help people see Christianity In a different way and can offer spiritual help as well. This is how I see BF serving it's mission. It does not deny or hide truth but offers help to those ready to receive it and a starting point to learn for those who need to or are ready to.

As far as fellowship online or better in person I'm all down as much as I can be. I think there is a lot we can do. But if we are only going to limit ourselves to those who we agree with on everything, I doubt we are going to do much good in the world. It is certainly not a very biblical example, ministering only to those who don't need it.

 

[andrew]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

One of the things I like about BF is that it does not try to be a church or denomination with a set of doctrines. I think this would be divisive and take away from it's mission. Forget polygamy for a second. Imagine other works based missions. Would a baptist hospital turn away a catholic or even a Muslim or atheist or even a satanist for that matter with a gunshot wound? No they would fulfill the mission of good work they where called to for the greater glory of God. They would offer help in his name even for a sinner and in some cases this can help people see Christianity In a different way and can offer spiritual help as well. This is how I see BF serving it's mission. It does not deny or hide truth but offers help to those ready to receive it and a starting point to learn for those who need to or are ready to.

So far, so good. I think Nathan basically says the same thing above.

As far as fellowship online or better in person I'm all down as much as I can be. I think there is a lot we can do. But if we are only going to limit ourselves to those who we agree with on everything, I doubt we are going to do much good in the world. It is certainly not a very biblical example, ministering only to those who don't need it.

I'm not exactly sure which way you're going with this, but again, everything but your last sentence pretty much tracks what Nathan said. The last sentence you might want to unpack a little bit.

In the meantime, here's what I'm doing: Under the broad umbrella of BF, I'm going to build one of those "independent and colorful" fellowships that Nathan referred to. And if anything, I'm generally more inclusive than most, enough to offend some people, but I make a distinction between those I'm ministering with and those I'm ministering to, and when I use the word fellowship, I'm referring to those I'm ministering with. I see a group coming together alongside BF that is 100% aligned therewith but slightly different in focus. For more info, shoot me an email.

 

[FollowingHim]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

Great illustration of a hospital blitziod, I agree entirely with that.

 

[cnystrom]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

Lots more could be said here, but I think we're beating a dead horse.

I agree a lot more could be said, but it does not seem to be a welcome topic of discussion, so I will let it go.

What you call a weakness I call a strength. It's because BF is wired the way it is that you and I can even be having this conversation. I like that.

That is absurd! I talk to everyone about almost anything.

 

[FollowingHim]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

What you call a weakness I call a strength. It's because BF is wired the way it is that you and I can even be having this conversation. I like that.

That is absurd! I talk to everyone about almost anything.

So do I. But we can only talk to each other if we're in the same room. If BF was limited only to people of one particular denominational bent, we wouldn't having this conversation at all as at least half of us wouldn't even be here. This is the beauty of the way BF is wired.

 

[andrew]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

Yeah, Chris, I don't know whether you're being defensive because you missed the point, or you missed the point because you're feeling defensive, but that wasn't about you at all—I was talking about BF. In person I have found you to be a knowledgeable and affable guy, and I'm sure in my living room or yours (or in Ron's room at the next retreat...) we could talk about just about anything at all. But you seem to have some kind of unresolved issue with the purpose and mission of this organization, and I think that's a shame.

What did you think of blitziod's comments about the Baptist hospital? Does that resonate with you at all? Because we are Christians, we reach out to the world with a message regarding God's design for the family. Because we are Christians, our message is going to resonate more with other Christians, but do we really have nothing to say to those of other faiths, let alone those of other denominations or theological persuasions?

I used to work with homeless people and do street evangelism. Getting people off the streets and back with their families was a win, even if they didn't convert (right away...) to Christianity, let alone my particular brand of Christianity.

Consider the story of the good Samaritan and Jesus's teaching re the sheep and goat judgment. The issue in both cases is simple acts of kindness v. religious snobbery.

This group is doing a good work in the name of Christ. Nathan laid out a beautiful summary of what this group is about and the basis of its fellowship. I'm in 100%.

 

[cnystrom]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

But you seem to have some kind of unresolved issue with the purpose and mission of this organization, and I think that's a shame.

I do have an unresolved issue. Others have had this same issue, too. Unfortunately they are gone now (which is my main issue). Some people have left and it is just as well, but some people have left unnecessarily in my opinion and I think that is the real shame.

It is not a personal issue. I (and my wife) loved the BF retreat and everyone we met there. We loved visiting you and your wonderful family at your house.

But you can't tell me I am beating a dead horse and then keep talking about it. Do you want to talk about it, or not? If you wish to talk about it I would be happy to address previously raised points. If not, I am capable of dropping it. I have no wish to be disruptive. I wish nothing but the best for BF.

I guess it came up in this thread because any offshoot group will have the same challenge in defining themselves. Who are we really? When we say "Christian" what do we really mean by that?

 

[cnystrom]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

So do I. But we can only talk to each other if we're in the same room. If BF was limited only to people of one particular denominational bent, we wouldn't having this conversation at all as at least half of us wouldn't even be here. This is the beauty of the way BF is wired.

To my knowledge even this forum is open to those who do not fit into the "About Us" description, such as Mormons.

It is a misperception that I advocate for BF a particular denomination. If one says "Mormonism is a heresy" it is not advocating a particular denomination.

 

[steve]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

"I guess it came up in this thread because any offshoot group will have the same challenge in defining themselves. Who are we really? When we say "Christian" what do we really mean by that?"

In my opinion, an offshoot group is an offshoot group. They go their own way and always have. Nathan has my admiration in keeping the board as open as it is while still enforcing the standards that appeal to him. There is no need for this board to be "democratic", just as a family is not a democracy. It is his board and his ministry.

There may well be sub-groups that form under the fellowship offered by this board, but that will be because they find their goals, opinions, beliefs, or whatever aligning in a more specific way than the whole board embraces. I do not see how this should be a problem to anyone.

"It is a misperception that I advocate for BF a particular denomination. If one says "Mormonism is a heresy" it is not advocating a particular denomination."

I do not understand your use of the word "denomination". Stating that we believe that Mormonism is wrong is not advocating any particular denomination, unless you think that a firm belief makes us a denomination. It does not.

 

[FollowingHim]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

I do have an unresolved issue. Others have had this same issue, too. Unfortunately they are gone now (which is my main issue).

If your main issue is the behaviour and decisions of people who are not part of this conversation, that is something you will have to raise with them rather than us.

Whatever we do, however we define the mission & scope of Biblical Families, some people will not agree with it and will leave over it. At present BF focusses on marriage and does not require people to subscribe to any other particular theology, although the leadership is clear on their views. Some people are uncomfortable with this and leave because there are others here with views they disagree with, and whom they do not wish to fellowship with. And many of us are sad to see them go (I agree with you there). But if we took a tougher line on theology and said "everyone must agree with X", a number of other people would be forced out over that or would leave because they didn't agree with the focus. And we would be just as sad to see THEM go. You can't win.

Whatever we do, some people will leave. So the fact a small number of people choose to leave over our focus doesn't mean we're in the wrong, because it will happen regardless.

You must bear in mind also that those people who do choose to no longer be active on the forum here remain personal friends of many of us and we continue to communicate in other settings. So just because someone chooses not to be active here does not mean they have rejected us, or we them, just that they choose not to be active here for one reason or another. And the reasons are different for each person, so we can't really "fix" that easily.

At the end of the day we must be on something near the right track because Biblical Families is a rapidly growing ministry - which means that far more people choose to stay than choose to leave. The upcoming retreat in Tennessee is panning out to be the biggest ever. More and more people are learning the truth of what the Bible says about marriage and getting support for their lives through this ministry. The best way of judging the focus of Biblical Families is through its fruit.

I guess it came up in this thread because any offshoot group will have the same challenge in defining themselves. Who are we really? When we say "Christian" what do we really mean by that?

Personally, if a few blokes who have met here choose to meet up in another setting to worship together with each other's families, I don't see that as some major step requiring a carefully pondered statement of faith to be written up. I see it as a few blokes choosing to meet up. They might eventually work out a statement of faith if they want to, but that would come after they'd been meeting for a while and understood each others views well enough to do it, it's not a prerequisite to fellowship. I'm pretty relaxed about it.

 

[andrew]

Re: Christ Centered Poly Friendly Chruches/ PeopleWhere are

Some people have left and it is just as well, but some people have left unnecessarily in my opinion and I think that is the real shame.

Samuel already mentioned this, but if you have an issue regarding people who left voluntarily, then your issue is really with them (but see below for more discussion about this).

It is not a personal issue. I (and my wife) loved the BF retreat and everyone we met there. We loved visiting you and your wonderful family at your house.

We also enjoyed getting to know y'all, and would like to spend more time together again soon. Are you going to TN? I may try to organize a weekend event in Texas in late June, but I'll have to call that in a coupla weeks.

But you can't tell me I am beating a dead horse and then keep talking about it.

Well, hold on.... (or should I say, "whoa!"?).

I didn't say you're beating a dead horse and then unilaterally continue to flog the issue. I said "I think we're beating a dead horse". Then you said some more stuff, and I said some more stuff in response to that, and some other people said some stuff, and here we are. And I think we may actually be making some progress! :shock:

The dead horse in the room is the mission and purpose of BF. The About Us page is a nice piece of work, lays it out well, and it's there for all to see, so no one's trying to pull a fast one. It's defensible on both Christian/theological grounds (consider blitziod's post re the nature of ministry and my comments re good Samaritan and sheep and goats) and practical grounds (consider FollowingHim's discussion re the way any definition of BF's mission and purpose will appeal to some and not others).

The "I'm not dead yet" (movie ref, anyone?...) horse in the room is how we feel about that and whether any unresolved issues can actually be resolved. Whether we heal (or God heals) the horse or we put it down, that's an issue that's obviously not dead. Yet.

I think FH did a great job of lining out the truth of the situation. No matter what this group stands for, some will be attracted and some won't, some will support and some won't, and how that affects the individual relationships of the individuals involved is up to them. We should be able to associate or not associate (or even :shock: change our minds) without judgment or shame. And every relationship begins in a certain amount of ignorance, and whatever attracts you to another individual or group will surely have offsetting repellent characteristics that hopefully you will find out about sooner rather than later, so there's this ongoing cost/benefit analysis that every relationship has to survive (whether or not the parties to the relationship understand that or are even aware of it).

The idea that some of us are trying to organize our lives around what we believe God is directing us to do can help or hinder that process. If I begin to learn things about BF or certain individuals that bother me, and I believe God has brought me here to straighten everybody out with my superior knowledge and wisdom, I could get judgmental over time, and if those people refused to get straightened as they should, I might just shake the dust off my feet and walk away with a testimony of how stiff-necked those people were. If on the other hand I believe God has brought me here to serve others through sharing my truth, and it doesn't seem to be doing any good, I might go back to him and ask what I'm doing wrong, or ask to be shown what I can do to improve my communication skills or priorities, so I can be a better servant. Or I might ask for a clearer understanding of why God led me here—maybe it was just to form certain relationships, or learn certain things from others, and it was never about 'straightening anyone else out'. How I see my role in the group, and how I see the group, will largely be a function of how I see myself.

I'd sincerely like to see you at peace about this, Chris. To the extent you have friends that you'd like to see back on the board, maybe you could try to initiate a reconciliation process. You can always pray fervently for the different individuals involved, and I'm sure you already have. My sense, though, is that everyone else involved has moved on, and the only real closure that's going to come from this is letting go. Wouldn't mind being wrong about that, but there it is.

I guess it came up in this thread because any offshoot group will have the same challenge in defining themselves. Who are we really? When we say "Christian" what do we really mean by that?

And I'd like to add, when we say "we", to whom are we referring? If I start a fellowship (just hypothetically...), it will be a function of the vision God has given me for what that group should be, tempered (I mean that in both its metallurgical and its musical sense - a double entendre) with the input of the brothers I believe God has also called to form the cadre that will get the larger group off the ground. Or I am entirely open to the idea that that statement is "so 20th century" in its assumptions, and maybe those God calls will simply be the group. That group may reproduce itself by helping others to form their own small groups, but there is no assumption in my mind that it would 'grow' in the sense that most church planters in the past few decades have used that term.

There is no assumption in my mind whatsoever that the group would be beholden to any of the myriad definitions of 'what it means to be a Christian' that is floating around out there. That group will answer to God for its beliefs and actions, as will any other group that is formed by individuals who meet on this site (or at a BF retreat). And again, going back to the About Us page, I don't see BF positioning itself as a denomination or any other kind of covering or religious police, so I don't see why that would be an issue. (Obviously at some level a group could get so weird that the leadership of BF would choose to distance itself from that group. I do not see that ever being an issue for me or anything I'm involved with.)