Same. Great book.
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Child training ftw
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Wowee dude... bravo! Thanks for sharing! You set the bar pretty high Sir Veritas 
:cross::bible:!
My favorite book concerning fatherhood that I've found is called "Raising A Modern Day Knight" by Robert Lewis. (Think maybe I've mentioned it before.) Cool concept of using chivalry and knighthood to raise yer boys up to be strong Godly men!
:cross::bible:!My favorite book concerning fatherhood that I've found is called "Raising A Modern Day Knight" by Robert Lewis. (Think maybe I've mentioned it before.) Cool concept of using chivalry and knighthood to raise yer boys up to be strong Godly men!
VV76 great post! Many times parents wait until they the parent are angry to correct the child. I have said. "If you wait until you are angry you have waited too long." Correction and discipline should be given. because the child needs it. not because you are angry and frustrated.
Just to add something that I've observed over the years, mostly outside our family, but also a few times within.
(Though this may step on toes somewhere), At times, it is both necessary and critical that the father train the mother. I say this because a couple of times my vision and my wife's were not the same for various reasons. Other times, perhaps, I outlined a vision or direction to my wife that was unclear or somewhat undefined resulting in her not having a clear view of how to achieve what I'd asked of her. After realizing that results weren't as expected, we would have some 'us' time, go out for a drive or dinner or whatever, and work through the process, discuss the misunderstandings, moderate the expectations sometimes, or whatever it took to get both of us on the same page.
For many of our families, the implementation of so much in our families is delegated to our wonderful wives. I'll be the first to tell anyone that my children are a direct result of my wife's influence, however, I have also noticed a few times in our own home as well as others where the father did not take the step to teach or train his wife how to get past a difficult issue with the kids. For some it was that the wife had given up after trying, other times perhaps did not try at all for whatever reason.
Fathers, there comes a time when the phrase, "This is unacceptable, and this is why . .. . " in a calm, loving, steadfast tone becomes one of the most valuable words you can speak into your home. In relationships of all types, this phrase becomes the point of impact between opposing ideals and is the first and best line of action to affect desired change.
If it comes to this point, don't undermine your wife's position in front of your children. Wait until you can call her aside or get alone and get a few minutes for clarification and teaching. To undermine her in front of the children or other adults will do more to tear down your house than to build.
Gotta go! But thanks for all the kind words and I hope this helps too.
(Though this may step on toes somewhere), At times, it is both necessary and critical that the father train the mother. I say this because a couple of times my vision and my wife's were not the same for various reasons. Other times, perhaps, I outlined a vision or direction to my wife that was unclear or somewhat undefined resulting in her not having a clear view of how to achieve what I'd asked of her. After realizing that results weren't as expected, we would have some 'us' time, go out for a drive or dinner or whatever, and work through the process, discuss the misunderstandings, moderate the expectations sometimes, or whatever it took to get both of us on the same page.
For many of our families, the implementation of so much in our families is delegated to our wonderful wives. I'll be the first to tell anyone that my children are a direct result of my wife's influence, however, I have also noticed a few times in our own home as well as others where the father did not take the step to teach or train his wife how to get past a difficult issue with the kids. For some it was that the wife had given up after trying, other times perhaps did not try at all for whatever reason.
Fathers, there comes a time when the phrase, "This is unacceptable, and this is why . .. . " in a calm, loving, steadfast tone becomes one of the most valuable words you can speak into your home. In relationships of all types, this phrase becomes the point of impact between opposing ideals and is the first and best line of action to affect desired change.
If it comes to this point, don't undermine your wife's position in front of your children. Wait until you can call her aside or get alone and get a few minutes for clarification and teaching. To undermine her in front of the children or other adults will do more to tear down your house than to build.
Gotta go! But thanks for all the kind words and I hope this helps too.
Bangarang, VV
I've been reading "Raising A Modern Day Knight" and it is been useful. I'm going over the importance of Loyalty with my two boys right now.Wowee dude... bravo! Thanks for sharing! You set the bar pretty high Sir Veritas
My favorite book concerning fatherhood that I've found is called "Raising A Modern Day Knight" by Robert Lewis. (Think maybe I've mentioned it before.) Cool concept of using chivalry and knighthood to raise yer boys up to be strong Godly men!
Sometimes the most important threats we protect our wives and children from are each other.
@Verifyveritas76 I will start off by saying that I agree with the approach, and wish I would have done more of it with the kids when they were younger. So, what follows is not a criticism of the approach or your style. I just need to add the caveat to all who see this line of posting and think, "this is how to create perfect kids" or "I've messed up", that the perfect approach to child rearing doesn't guarantee perfect results, and the most imperfect child rearing does not guarantee failure. Human free will to reject the good, or to reverse the dysfunction of the bad, can make a difference.
I think this concept, and implementation is super well explained here.
We have done some similar early training with our children as well, and in some cases elected to do things differently.
What I wanted to comment on here is more relating to @Mojo's last post here.
I have an aunt I love dearly, who did not believe in spanking, or otherwise correcting her little angels much. In fact the only time I believe they were ever corrected would have been when it was her child on both sides, as in every other case she was blind to any other perspective. They were total monsters when young, throwing tantrums and expecting every other child to accommodate their spoiled little wills. While it did cause many issues between our families while we were all growing up, those monsters grew up to be really neat adults. In my opinion, what saved those children, and let them turn out so well, is that their parents model a healthy loving relationship with each other, and have a sincere love for other people.
It was really ugly as those indulged undisciplined children reached the ages of about 10 to 13, because they knew better, but still were not imposing any control on themselves, but as I have said, they are all wonderful adults.
I think the biggest disadvantage those cousins of mine face now, is not having any idea, being raised as they were, how to train up young children, or even pets. It is sad to see how lost they all are at even achieving simple obedience with the family dog.
I just thought it might help some to know that there is hope for even children who are spoiled rotten. Love really can cover a multitude of sins....at least that has been my observation.
We have done some similar early training with our children as well, and in some cases elected to do things differently.
What I wanted to comment on here is more relating to @Mojo's last post here.
I have an aunt I love dearly, who did not believe in spanking, or otherwise correcting her little angels much. In fact the only time I believe they were ever corrected would have been when it was her child on both sides, as in every other case she was blind to any other perspective. They were total monsters when young, throwing tantrums and expecting every other child to accommodate their spoiled little wills. While it did cause many issues between our families while we were all growing up, those monsters grew up to be really neat adults. In my opinion, what saved those children, and let them turn out so well, is that their parents model a healthy loving relationship with each other, and have a sincere love for other people.
It was really ugly as those indulged undisciplined children reached the ages of about 10 to 13, because they knew better, but still were not imposing any control on themselves, but as I have said, they are all wonderful adults.
I think the biggest disadvantage those cousins of mine face now, is not having any idea, being raised as they were, how to train up young children, or even pets. It is sad to see how lost they all are at even achieving simple obedience with the family dog.
I just thought it might help some to know that there is hope for even children who are spoiled rotten. Love really can cover a multitude of sins....at least that has been my observation.
Thanks for the affirmation @Joleneakamama
@Mojo, I will of course agree with the caveat. There are so many variables in each family to be able to say, this is how you do it! That is why I added a little bit of our history to try to give context. This is just to say this is how we did it, mostly imperfectly! I will forever be grateful to those who helped us very early on because I am convinced that the same information just one year later would have still been successful, but would have required a huge difference in effort and focus on our part to achieve success. We were able to start when our oldest was about 6 months old and gradually implemented other training as we realized that it was needed.
I have seen many friends try the same training on children who are 2 or 3 years old with abysmal results. My opinion on why they met with this failure or difficulty was that they waited to establish authority and roles until authority and roles were established by default (every child was allowed to do what was right in their own eyes). It was much harder then to train because the training was subject to the child's opinion. Until the proper roles were firmly established, (me = dad, you = child) there will always be two (or more) masters in the house. Most of the examples that I saw, the parents never truly regained that abdicated authority and so there was always an elevated potential for conflict.
It is very easy to train a tree limb to grow in a desired direction IF you begin when it is tender. Once that limb becomes set in its way, it is impossible to train it at the same point without great stress. You have to utilize much more drastic and semi permanent methods to fix it in the way that it should go. It is still possible to train, but you cannot use the easy simple way that is highly effective when it is tender.
@Joleneakamama, you said so much very well. I also have family members who have (un)trained in the same manner. One family member is raising their daughter like that with limited success so far, one family member is relying primarily on "discipline" without training also with limited success, one raised theirs using frustrated/discipline. I anticipate that all of the children will turn out as responsible adults, but to me, the anxiety, conflict, disrupted home life and fellowship that I have seen exibited in their homes are unnecessary and easily avoided with proper roles, early detection and correction of unwanted actions and attitudes, and training/vision toward the desired actions and attitudes.
To me, early training = more peace, later training = more conflict
I have seen many friends try the same training on children who are 2 or 3 years old with abysmal results. My opinion on why they met with this failure or difficulty was that they waited to establish authority and roles until authority and roles were established by default (every child was allowed to do what was right in their own eyes). It was much harder then to train because the training was subject to the child's opinion. Until the proper roles were firmly established, (me = dad, you = child) there will always be two (or more) masters in the house. Most of the examples that I saw, the parents never truly regained that abdicated authority and so there was always an elevated potential for conflict.
It is very easy to train a tree limb to grow in a desired direction IF you begin when it is tender. Once that limb becomes set in its way, it is impossible to train it at the same point without great stress. You have to utilize much more drastic and semi permanent methods to fix it in the way that it should go. It is still possible to train, but you cannot use the easy simple way that is highly effective when it is tender.
@Joleneakamama, you said so much very well. I also have family members who have (un)trained in the same manner. One family member is raising their daughter like that with limited success so far, one family member is relying primarily on "discipline" without training also with limited success, one raised theirs using frustrated/discipline. I anticipate that all of the children will turn out as responsible adults, but to me, the anxiety, conflict, disrupted home life and fellowship that I have seen exibited in their homes are unnecessary and easily avoided with proper roles, early detection and correction of unwanted actions and attitudes, and training/vision toward the desired actions and attitudes.
To me, early training = more peace, later training = more conflict
A book that I remember as positive from the late '80s has the title Children are Wet Cement: Make the Right Impression in Their Lives. Don't know if I'd recommend it today, just a different metaphor for the same principle. There's a window of opportunity for character formation that can be missed....
(Not arguing with Mojo or others. It's never too late, and we can always hope, and all our previous mistakes and shortcomings are covered by the blood of Christ. Just agreeing with the principle of start early, start well.)
(Not arguing with Mojo or others. It's never too late, and we can always hope, and all our previous mistakes and shortcomings are covered by the blood of Christ. Just agreeing with the principle of start early, start well.)
We have had a very similar approach, again influenced by "Baby Wise", with good success. Not as impressive as your own, and we've got slacker with the younger children, I have to tighten things up again, but certainly I agree completely with this way of doing things.
Another example of training: We start training firearm safety once children can crawl. The reason being that when you're visiting someone, out here in the country, they might crawl and find an interesting toy under a bed (however many laws there may be about locking up guns, it doesn't necessarily happen). Put a gun (unloaded obviously) in the middle of the floor, say it's dangerous and they're not allowed to touch it, watch them very carefully and reinforce this until it is absolutely clear and they'll play all around it giving it a wide berth. Then occasionally reinforce it by just standing an unloaded gun in the corner of the room and checking they leave it alone. As they get older, if they are losing their appreciation for the danger of guns, get the noisiest one you have (ideally a shotgun loaded with birdshot), take them outside, fill a weak container with water (like a plastic milk bottle), and shoot it at close range. The shockwaves on a full container will make it explode in a dramatic fashion, and the pellets completely tear up the plastic. Ask them to imagine the container was some kid's head. An appreciation of the need for gun safety is guaranteed to be stuck in their minds for several years afterwards...
The point of training is to prepare people for a situation before it arises, rather than reacting to what they did wrong afterwards. Training gives them tools and confidence, it is a positive thing. Too many people expect their dog to be smarter than their kids, as they'll carefully train their dog but think their kids will just misbehave and that's just what kids are like.
If you didn't run your marriage as a hierarchy but as a partnership, or if you were trying to have a hierarchy but your wife was not completely on-board, then I'd agree. Don't undermine her in front of the kids and cause an argument. But I'd see that as a fallback option only if she were not going to submit and give a positive illustration to the children, which in my mind is a better object lesson.
Another example of training: We start training firearm safety once children can crawl. The reason being that when you're visiting someone, out here in the country, they might crawl and find an interesting toy under a bed (however many laws there may be about locking up guns, it doesn't necessarily happen). Put a gun (unloaded obviously) in the middle of the floor, say it's dangerous and they're not allowed to touch it, watch them very carefully and reinforce this until it is absolutely clear and they'll play all around it giving it a wide berth. Then occasionally reinforce it by just standing an unloaded gun in the corner of the room and checking they leave it alone. As they get older, if they are losing their appreciation for the danger of guns, get the noisiest one you have (ideally a shotgun loaded with birdshot), take them outside, fill a weak container with water (like a plastic milk bottle), and shoot it at close range. The shockwaves on a full container will make it explode in a dramatic fashion, and the pellets completely tear up the plastic. Ask them to imagine the container was some kid's head. An appreciation of the need for gun safety is guaranteed to be stuck in their minds for several years afterwards...
The point of training is to prepare people for a situation before it arises, rather than reacting to what they did wrong afterwards. Training gives them tools and confidence, it is a positive thing. Too many people expect their dog to be smarter than their kids, as they'll carefully train their dog but think their kids will just misbehave and that's just what kids are like.
I have a slightly different approach. I make it very clear in our house that I'm in charge, Sarah's second in command but under me, and the kids are under her. They understand this hierarchy. This means that if I override Sarah (which I do very rarely), I am not undermining her. Rather, she is demonstrating submission to authority, and they are to learn from her submission to me that they in turn should submit to her. So this can actually become a positive illustration, provided your wife knows the need for a positive illustration, so submits immediately and it doesn't become an argument (which would obviously be completely unproductive in front of the kids). If she disagrees, she can still go along with what the husband said at the time, but can then discuss it later in private. Although I very rarely need to override Sarah, as we are very much in agreement on most things, if I feel the need I don't hesitate to, because I know she will calmly support my decision and the children will learn a great deal from her humble example.
If you didn't run your marriage as a hierarchy but as a partnership, or if you were trying to have a hierarchy but your wife was not completely on-board, then I'd agree. Don't undermine her in front of the kids and cause an argument. But I'd see that as a fallback option only if she were not going to submit and give a positive illustration to the children, which in my mind is a better object lesson.
Like it Samuel! Good stuff! I have a few more thoughts on these ideas I'll try to get back to in a day or so. Headed out the door now for a small road trip with the Mrs. To see some sights and buy a tool
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You don't buy tools...you adopt them! The money exchanged is just the adoption fee.Like it Samuel! Good stuff! I have a few more thoughts on these ideas I'll try to get back to in a day or so. Headed out the door now for a small road trip with the Mrs. To see some sights and buy a tool
Awesome concept, except that I would have to raise it a bunch of notches.
For me it would have to be considered the bride-price, you don't adopt that which you lust for.....
Sinner!!!Awesome concept, except that I would have to raise it a bunch of notches.
For me it would have to be considered the bride-price, you don't adopt that which you lust for.....