Challenge #2

[sixth_heretic]

Sickness is spiritual correction from God in order to encourage us to move away from sin and toward Him,

This is not True. If that were true then why would jesus Sacrifice his Body that we can be healed if it is gods will we be sick. And jesus put the will of God above his own will.

Matt.26
[39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
[42] He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Luke.22
[42] Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
John.5
[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John.7
[16] Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

If you are right then jesus should have gone about Giving sickness and disease to all of the pharasees and scribes. And not healing the sick and afflicted. Because if you are sick or aflicted it was Gods will. This mentality is from satan.

John.9
[1] And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
[2] And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
[3] Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Sickness is not from God. Sickness is from the devil. Sin has nothing to do with sickness. It is when people think that sin is connected to sickness that God can not heal people. Sin Causes Doubt that God wants people healed. Those that were healed in the bible were healed by removing doubt. Once the doubt was Gone Then the peoples faith in God emerged and they could believe that God wanted them healed. Then God could heal the afflicted.

God Only gives Good Gifts not evil ones.
Matt.7
[9] Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
[10] Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
[11] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Luke 11
[11] If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
[12] Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
[13] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Jas.1
[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man [with evil]:

What causes people to be sick is doubt not sin.
Matt.21
[21] Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mark.11
[23] For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

If you doubt that God Can heal you God can not heal you. If your doubt is removed then God can heal anything even if your faith is as small as a mustard seed. We get sick because we doubt God ability to heal us. We dont get sick because God is punishing us for sinning.

If your father tells you not to play in the street and you do anyway are you saying that father is punishing his son for not listening to him by hiting him with a car?

Your Teaching is not of God. God Does not make people sick. God heals People. It is satan that makes people sick. And any one that says that God makes people sick is of satan.

 

[DrRay777]

If what you say is true, then please explain the following scriptures...

Deuteronomy chapter 28, esp. 58-63 -

58“If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59“then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60“Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61“Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62“You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63“And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Deuteronomy 32:39 -

39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Psalms chapters 38-39 -

Psalm 38

A Psalm of David. To bring to remembrance.
1 O Lord, do not rebuke me in Your wrath,
Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure!
2 For Your arrows pierce me deeply,
And Your hand presses me down.
3 There is no soundness in my flesh
Because of Your anger,
Nor any health in my bones
Because of my sin.
4 For my iniquities have gone over my head;
Like a heavy burden they are too heavy for me.
5 My wounds are foul and festering
Because of my foolishness.
6 I am troubled, I am bowed down greatly;
I go mourning all the day long.
7 For my loins are full of inflammation,
And there is no soundness in my flesh.
8 I am feeble and severely broken;
I groan because of the turmoil of my heart.
9 Lord, all my desire is before You;
And my sighing is not hidden from You.
10 My heart pants, my strength fails me;
As for the light of my eyes, it also has gone from me.
11 My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague,
And my relatives stand afar off.
12 Those also who seek my life lay snares for me;
Those who seek my hurt speak of destruction,
And plan deception all the day long.
13 But I, like a deaf man, do not hear;
And I am like a mute who does not open his mouth.
14 Thus I am like a man who does not hear,
And in whose mouth is no response.
15 For in You, O Lord, I hope;
You will hear, O Lord my God.
16 For I said, “Hear me, lest they rejoice over me,
Lest, when my foot slips, they exalt themselves against me.”
17 For I am ready to fall,
And my sorrow is continually before me.
18 For I will declare my iniquity;
I will be in anguish over my sin.
19 But my enemies are vigorous, and they are strong;
And those who hate me wrongfully have multiplied.
20 Those also who render evil for good,
They are my adversaries, because I follow what is good.
21 Do not forsake me, O Lord;
O my God, be not far from me!
22 Make haste to help me,
O Lord, my salvation!

Psalm 39

To the Chief Musician. To Jeduthun. A Psalm of David.
1 I said, “I will guard my ways,
Lest I sin with my tongue;
I will restrain my mouth with a muzzle,
While the wicked are before me.”
2 I was mute with silence,
I held my peace even from good;
And my sorrow was stirred up.
3 My heart was hot within me;
While I was musing, the fire burned.
Then I spoke with my tongue:
4 “Lord, make me to know my end,
And what is the measure of my days,
That I may know how frail I am.
5 Indeed, You have made my days as handbreadths,
And my age is as nothing before You;
Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor. Selah
6 Surely every man walks about like a shadow;
Surely they busy themselves in vain;
He heaps up riches,
And does not know who will gather them.
7 “And now, Lord, what do I wait for?
My hope is in You.
8 Deliver me from all my transgressions;
Do not make me the reproach of the foolish.
9 I was mute, I did not open my mouth,
Because it was You who did it.
10 Remove Your plague from me;
I am consumed by the blow of Your hand.
11 When with rebukes You correct man for iniquity,
You make his beauty melt away like a moth;
Surely every man is vapor. Selah
12 “Hear my prayer, O Lord,
And give ear to my cry;
Do not be silent at my tears;
For I am a stranger with You,
A sojourner, as all my fathers were.
13 Remove Your gaze from me, that I may regain strength,
Before I go away and am no more.”The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Psalm 119:65-120 -

65 You have dealt well with Your servant,
O Lord, according to Your word.
66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge,
For I believe Your commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray,
But now I keep Your word.
68 You are good, and do good;
Teach me Your statutes.
69 The proud have forged a lie against me,
But I will keep Your precepts with my whole heart.
70 Their heart is as fat as grease,
But I delight in Your law.
71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
72 The law of Your mouth is better to me
Than thousands of coins of gold and silver.

73 Your hands have made me and fashioned me;
Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.
74 Those who fear You will be glad when they see me,
Because I have hoped in Your word.
75 I know, O Lord, that Your judgments are right,
And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.
76 Let, I pray, Your merciful kindness be for my comfort,
According to Your word to Your servant.
77 Let Your tender mercies come to me, that I may live;
For Your law is my delight.
78 Let the proud be ashamed,
For they treated me wrongfully with falsehood;
But I will meditate on Your precepts.
79 Let those who fear You turn to me,
Those who know Your testimonies.
80 Let my heart be blameless regarding Your statutes,
That I may not be ashamed.

81 My soul faints for Your salvation,
But I hope in Your word.
82 My eyes fail from searching Your word,
Saying, “When will You comfort me?”
83 For I have become like a wineskin in smoke,
Yet I do not forget Your statutes.
84 How many are the days of Your servant?
When will You execute judgment on those who persecute me?
85 The proud have dug pits for me,
Which is not according to Your law.
86 All Your commandments are faithful;
They persecute me wrongfully;
Help me!
87 They almost made an end of me on earth,
But I did not forsake Your precepts.
88 Revive me according to Your lovingkindness,
So that I may keep the testimony of Your mouth.

89 Forever, O Lord,
Your word is settled in heaven.
90 Your faithfulness endures to all generations;
You established the earth, and it abides.
91 They continue this day according to Your ordinances,
For all are Your servants.
92 Unless Your law had been my delight,
I would then have perished in my affliction.
93 I will never forget Your precepts,
For by them You have given me life.
94 I am Yours, save me;
For I have sought Your precepts.
95 The wicked wait for me to destroy me,
But I will consider Your testimonies.
96 I have seen the consummation of all perfection,
But Your commandment is exceedingly broad.

97 Oh, how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
98 You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies;
For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers,
For Your testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the ancients,
Because I keep Your precepts.
101 I have restrained my feet from every evil way,
That I may keep Your word.
102 I have not departed from Your judgments,
For You Yourself have taught me.
103 How sweet are Your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.

105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.
106 I have sworn and confirmed
That I will keep Your righteous judgments.
107 I am afflicted very much;
Revive me, O Lord, according to Your word.
108 Accept, I pray, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord,
And teach me Your judgments.
109 My life is continually in my hand,
Yet I do not forget Your law.
110 The wicked have laid a snare for me,
Yet I have not strayed from Your precepts.
111 Your testimonies I have taken as a heritage forever,
For they are the rejoicing of my heart.
112 I have inclined my heart to perform Your statutes
Forever, to the very end.

113 I hate the double-minded,
But I love Your law.
114 You are my hiding place and my shield;
I hope in Your word.
115 Depart from me, you evildoers,
For I will keep the commandments of my God!
116 Uphold me according to Your word, that I may live;
And do not let me be ashamed of my hope.
117 Hold me up, and I shall be safe,
And I shall observe Your statutes continually.
118 You reject all those who stray from Your statutes,
For their deceit is falsehood.
119 You put away all the wicked of the earth like dross;
Therefore I love Your testimonies.
120 My flesh trembles for fear of You,
And I am afraid of Your judgments.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Proverbs 13:24 -

24 He who spares his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Isaiah 48:10 -

10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Romans 1:18-32 -

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

I Corinthians 11:27-34 -

27Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. 33Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Hebrews 12:3-13 -

3For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Revelation 3:14-22 -

14“And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16“So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17“Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18“I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19“As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Maybe you do not have children. Even when Satan wants to touch one of God's people, as is outlined in the book of Job, he has to get permission from God. No parent enjoys correcting their children, but if they do not correct them when they are out of order, then that child will grow up undisciplined, selfish and rebellious. No parent only gives gifts to their children, nor does God only give gifts to us. The only reason that Satan is still operating in the earth and not already in the lake of fire is so he can help drive us toward God and away from the lake of fire.

The first time Jesus came, He came to SAVE the world, not to JUDGE it. The second time He comes, He will come in JUDGMENT.

John 12:47 -

47“And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Revelation 6:15-17 and 14:6 -

15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

6Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

God has confirmed this truth about healing many times with great healing miracles in both my life and the lives of others. If it were not true, then He would not do this, (Mark 16:14-20).

14Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17“And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18“they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

19So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

If you chose not to believe what God has revealed to me, then make that choice, but you should be careful when you say that something is not from God, (Matthew 12:22-37).

Dr. Ray

 

[sixth_heretic]

I will ask the question again in case you missed it.

If that were true then why would jesus Sacrifice his Body that we can be healed if it is gods will we be sick. jesus put the will of God above his own will but never made the pharasees sick. Why is that? How does that fit with your understanding of scripture?

 

[DrRay777]

I answered the question. Perhaps you should re-read my previous response. However, I can see from your response that you do not have an answer for my question.

Here are two examples where God made people sick for their sin. There is a lesson here for you. Following this, I will make no further comments to you regarding this subject.

Genesis chapter 20 and Numbers chapter 12 -

Chapter 20

1And Abraham journeyed from there to the South, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and stayed in Gerar. 2Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, “Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.” 4But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also? 5“Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she, even she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7“Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

8So Abimelech rose early in the morning, called all his servants, and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were very much afraid. 9And Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? How have I offended you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done deeds to me that ought not to be done.” 10Then Abimelech said to Abraham, “What did you have in view, that you have done this thing?” 11And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. 12“But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 13“And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said to her, ‘This is your kindness that you should do for me: in every place, wherever we go, say of me, “He is my brother.” ’ ”

14Then Abimelech took sheep, oxen, and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham; and he restored Sarah his wife to him. 15And Abimelech said, “See, my land is before you; dwell where it pleases you.” 16Then to Sarah he said, “Behold, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver; indeed this vindicates you before all who are with you and before everybody.” Thus she was rebuked.
17So Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abimelech, his wife, and his female servants. Then they bore children; 18for the Lord had closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham’s wife.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Chapter 12

1Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman. 2So they said, “Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. 3(Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth.) 4Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tabernacle of meeting!” So the three came out. 5Then the Lord came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward. 6Then He said, “Hear now My words:

If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”

9So the anger of the Lord was aroused against them, and He departed. 10And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow. Then Aaron turned toward Miriam, and there she was, a leper. 11So Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord! Please do not lay this sin on us, in which we have done foolishly and in which we have sinned. 12“Please do not let her be as one dead, whose flesh is half consumed when he comes out of his mother’s womb!” 13So Moses cried out to the Lord, saying, “Please heal her, O God, I pray!”
14Then the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not be shamed seven days? Let her be shut out of the camp seven days, and afterward she may be received again.” 15So Miriam was shut out of the camp seven days, and the people did not journey till Miriam was brought in again. 16And afterward the people moved from Hazeroth and camped in the Wilderness of Paran.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Dr. Ray

 

[Tlaloc]

Perhaps I could add some points of order?

What Ray said about those who abide in Jesus do not get sick or die. St.Paul is greater than any here, but he was ill for a purpose. Those who abide with Jesus do not, of course, but until we pass the veil 'all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.' you and I will surely die unless the world ends first.

Six, you where saying something about sin and sickness being unrelated because sickness is not from God. Prithee not to forget that sin is also not from God. I'm unsure how exactly this relates to you're argument with Ray on the whole. Still, I stand beside that it is our fallen state that allows for sickness, therefore sin and death (and thus sickness) are directly related. As said before though, I maintain a distinction between sickness and death caused by personal sin and that caused by general sin.

Well, good luck with the discussion.

 

[DrRay777]

Thank you for your comments. The truth is the truth, believe it or not. It operates just as I have said and I have many witnesses. Even if sickness resulted automatically as a result of living in a 'fallen state', it still came from God and it would still have a devine purpose. Even if Satan does make someone sick, and he does if God gives him permission or the person is outside of God's will and opens the door. However, that does not take away from the truth that it still ultimately comes from God and there is a purpose in everything God orders OR allows. I offered this information as a service, since it has provided wonderful freedom from illness for me and several others, as well as healings from a number of incurable conditions. Faith in the Word of God through Jesus is required in the overall process, but knowing the truth about healing can go beyond the gift of healing and teach the person how to stay out of trouble and avoid getting sick, or get a quicker healing if they do get sick. As for not having to die, we know that at least Enoch reached this place as Hebrews 11:5-6 tells us. Jesus said that if we live and believe in Him we will never die.

John 11:25-26 -

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26“And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Denying that there is a place IN Jesus that I call the 'life in Christ', (i.e., if someone 'lives and believes in Him') where one does not have to die is denying what Jesus said. I am not willing to do that because if someone does not receive His words, God WILL hold that person accountable. Jesus would not have said it if it were not possible. It is one of the main goals of God's ministry through me to get to that place and show as many as are willing how to get there as well. God has commanded me to do this.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 - (Moses relating what God prophesied of Jesus)

15“The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16“according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ 17“And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18‘I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19‘And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

After Jesus healed the man by the pool of Bethesda, He had this to say to him in John 5:14...

14Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

I rest my case

By the way, what is 'good luck'?

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray

 

[Tlaloc]

I shall attempt to address the points aimed at me, though I am unclear as to exactly which those are.

There is speculation that Elijah too was translated when he was taken up, when I said you or I I meant what I said. The quote in St. John started with 'I am the Resurrection," which I was referring to when I said we shall pass the veil before then.

What I am denying primarily is you placing yourself with St.Paul, Enoch, or Elijah. It is not that I believe they will have no equal, such a thing may happen, but are areas where it is apparent you need tempering and chastisement and development. Such things are good, but difficult.

It has been said that there are a lot of strong willed independent thinkers here, and its true to pursue polygyny you need a backbone. But there are elements of assertiveness that hinge to pride, and part of that is the disconnect many here have with the church. Without accountability it is effortless and natural to become inflated. You too need to consider earnestly even those most contrary to you're doctrine, we all speak for service, and all have our unique gifts and histories that offer further light. Pride will fell even a king anointed by God, we must be ever vigilant against it.

Luck is the thing worth wishing in non core doctrinal disputes.

 

[DrRay777]

What I see in John 11:25-26 is that there are two distinct places that Jesus delineated - 1) ‘the resurrection’, (i.e., salvation) and 2) ‘the life in Christ’. The first is the ‘alpha’ or beginning and where most Christians are. The second is the ‘omega’ or the end point, (i.e., teleios). The second is the place of perfection or maturity in Christ in which Psalm 91 works automatically and NO evil will befall that person. Few people have gotten to this place. I believe that Enoch, Elijah and possibly John did. However, the church at large will get to that place before Jesus will come back, as Paul makes clear in Ephesians chapter 4.

I do not believe that I have said anywhere in any of my posts that I have yet reached the state of perfection in Christ, only that it exists and I am trying through God's grace to get there before it is too late. The thing I am trying to put forth is that God is speaking these things to me and telling me to speak them to the church. Time is short and the world is spinning out of control. The church at large does not know these things or they would be taught. There will be at least 144,000 people, (probably men, not counting women and children) who will get to the life in Christ BEFORE the great tribulation, which is very near. The reason that I am so emphatic in my approach is that I feel the pressure from the Holy Spirit every day to get this message out. The tribulations that are just around the corner will bypass only those who are counted worthy to be spared (Juke 21:36). God put this on me, I did not ask for it. I am only trying to be obedient. It is not for everyone, but as many as will receive it will have a chance to escape. Paul saw this place and wrote that we must get there. He just did not get there himself. The reason that I believe John may have made it is that the ‘life in Christ’ scriptures are only found in his writings. He best understood the love of Christ which is the key to achieving this goal.

I am trying to be obedient to what God has ordered me to do, whether or not I make it to the place of perfection will remain to be seen. God has revealed all the essential things necessary to reach the state of perfection in Christ and I have obediently written them down and made them freely available on the web site God had me build, for anyone who wishes to escape the tribulation. I teach people that they will not know if they are perfected until either God speaks it to them or they get invited to escape the tribulation in the wilderness, though the essential characteristics are listed in the book that I wrote and posted on the web site. Again, these are things that God has shown me, (why He chose me I do not know, except possibly that He knows that I will do it and do not particularly care what people think of me). If people have a problem with what I have said, then I do not know what to tell them other than perhaps they should take it up with the source. I am only the messenger, however it is my deepest desire that people would see what I see and move in the required direction before it is too late, whether or not I make it.

3 A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself,
But the simple pass on and are punished.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray

 

[Tlaloc]

Try the spirits and the prophets as they come.

People who understand matters like those you speak of will challenge you and try you. They can do no less. You're mannerisms may be read in a way that appears you may think youreself there. It is better to out with that directly yes or no, and that has been done. Though you have not crossed to pride I implore you to find what will stop you from crossing that line. The more you know the more danger pride for knowledge is, let us pray God will give you things in youre life to guard against it, if you do not already have it.

I did levy that you need tempering, and that I do not withdraw, nor do I think you would have it withdrawn, nor would I fail to levy the charge against myself in other areas. There is an art to communications that will help you're message. Bluntly, you come off as arrogant, and that closes many peoples ears before they hear what you say. You must come to a point where you understand the reasons people think what they do about you. If people reject what you say for rejecting God then go on not caring, but people may reject you without hearing you out if you trigger warnings in their mind. Mayhap learning communications and being able to effectively connect to people is the next step in growth for you.

I should mention that St.John spoke about the Logos and related it to Christ more directly than any other gospel. Many cases Logos has been drummed down to word in a silly attempt to make the text of scripture say in itself it is infallible. Understanding is tied into love, just as you understand healing and are thus able to act out love by healing more.

 

[DrRay777]

Thanks again for your thoughtful comments. If you know Joyce Meyer, then you know that we teachers do have a very direct approach. As I mentioned, this posting thing is new for me and I am still trying to find my feet. That is no excuse and certainly one area that I still need work in is presentation. I tend to see things very clearly when God reveals them and it is therefore sometimes hard for me to deal with some of the stuff that is taught in the chruches, since it is not really scriptural, but it is what people have come to believe and they assume that it is in the Word. In any case, I will continue to try to temper my comments and hopefully with God's help I can overcome these weaknesses.

Thanks again.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray

 

[Tlaloc]

I am fortunate to be able to speak on matters of presentation because I had the fortune of a true master teacher in the area. It is much more difficult on a forum because any word may be taken in any possible way, so people (including myself) tend to get offended more easily. I'm sure the meetings in person provide amazing communication and growth, its a pity we are both not close to them.

That aside, I should step into you're area of expertise in this thread, it is you're thread and it is primarily dealing with you're speciality.

Like I said, healing is not my area of specially and I can only use it effectively in an extreme circumstance. Since I have the luxury of having you here in what seems to be an otherwise wrapped up discussion I'll request a consult of you. In the last years I've had Periodic Paralysis (without further classification as it evades further diagnosis). Through much searching and talking to the right people I've found that a number of people in my family have it or have had it. The diagnoses are always inconclusive, and treatments are sporadicly effective. Mayo clinic doctors reduced it to Firbro Mialga, which is the ultimate end of we can't figure it out when it comes to muscular issues. There are some very strong good things in my family history, and some very fell things from other places as well. Oddly enough the paralysis goes up the good side, and is apparently in my great grandfather whom did amazing work for the Lord and has had profound impacts on peoples lives. Despite that he always regretted that he did not become a pastor like his siblings, he viewed that they did more despite all the things he did.

Now, I was first effected when I was working myself to a rather ridicules extent. My first collapse and paralysis was somewhat a natural extension of that, though even a year and some later I am much weaker than I was before the collapse despite rest and recuperation. For the most part I can avoid paralysis by sleeping 10-11 hours per day and not over exerting, but it is still a considerable problem. I've had some messages about it, and followed through somewhat poorly concerning some of them.

One way or the other, I've reviewed you're work and message and clearly you have that gift, so it is a good idea for me to consult you about these things.

 

[Tlaloc]

So far so good, I haven't completed everything and still have problems with paralysis, but the pain is gone as you said and that is an incredible change. Praise God and thanks for the consult Ray.

 

[Tlaloc]

I did 1.25 K swimming today, I'm tired and its far short of what I did before I first got sick, but its far above the 200M or so I could only hope to do just a week ago. I have finished every step required and am recovered by the power of God.

For what its worth to everyone else, Healing is very much one of Ray's gifts, even though he is far away the method he layed out from what God had shown him was sufficient to enable God to work. Praise God.

 

[DrRay777]

Jair,

I am glad to hear how well your healing is progressing. I had no doubt that God would once again confirm His Word as He has revealed it to me. I have seen it over and over. Praise the Lord. He is AWESOME!

One correction I would make is that I do NOT have the gift of healing as outlined in I Corinthians chapter 12. I know ‘the truth about healing’ as God has revealed it to me. I used to apologize to people and tell them that I do not have the gift of healing when I would pray for their healing. God rebuked me one day and told me not to apologize for the truth about healing, as He told me it is actually more powerful than the gift of healing. Many people who have the Holy Spirit gift of healing and miracles may pray for someone and not know why they were sick to begin with. That way some do not get healed, or may not stay healed. I have found this to be the case especially for sick believers who go from person to person having hands laid on them trying to get healed. I have even seen people who walk in the gift of healing suffer from sickness that they cannot get healed from. God has outlined to me not only how to get people who receive these things healed, but to be able to teach people how to stay healed and not get sick again. I have applied these things in my life, have gotten healed directly from God for a number of ailments and rarely get sick any more. Even if I do get sick, I usually get healed quickly because I go to God and find out what the issue is or at least repent quickly so that the sickness does not need to stay.

Jair, I hope you will start a new thread with a full testimony of this process so that others will believe that this thing is for real. Anyone who is sick can be healed and stay that way. Now I know why the enemy tried so hard to cut me off from this group when I first started this thread. For those who want to know more about the truth about healing, they can e-mail me or go to the web site that God had me build at either http://www.perfectchristian.110mb.com or http://perfectchristian.hostrator.com, (note that on the second one there is no www in address.

Be blessed,

Ray