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Challenge #2

D

DrRay777

Member
Okay, since there has been such a nice response to challenge #1, I will post challenge #2. Someone brought up the issue about eating anything vs. not eating certain things. This leads us into another area in which God has been gracious enough to reveal some truths to me. Let’s see what He has told you guys. The second challenging question is - What is the truth about healing? No fair if you have visited my website and read the teaching on this subject. Remember, 'you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free'. Let me also preface this by saying I walk in this truth, am free from sickness, (have been healed from several) and have helped many people get healed from incurable sicknesses. And by the way, I am a medical doctor as well. This is fun! :D

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
Healing is the order of ongoing providence that restores systems to a natural, productive state.

In the most basic level of our understanding it is the instilled ability of a system such as our biological body to resist and repair from disorder that would impare or destroy the body. Healthy bloods ability to clot wounds and prevent people from bleeding out comes to mind. A forests ability to reseed itself after a fire or to a lesser extent logging so that the forest may continue to process air and produce and protect living things would be a similar example. This order may be promoted by natural actions using the power of logic and understanding in a way like bandaging cuts or Forrest replanting efforts. It may be promoted by semi-natural actions such as regulating breathing to lower blood pressure. It may be invoked in a fashion by any human (as an image of God) as an act of will to heal. Advanced, true levels of the order may be given by God to\through his people to heal at an instant or accelerated rate, or even to heal things which would not otherwise heal. Highly advanced levels of this may be given to\though his people to bring spiritual healing and revival either to one or many individuals. At a Divine only level it is an element (though not by any means the sole force) of Salvation, the restoration of a human soul to communion with God. This level of healing was accomplished by Christ, and none other can achieve it. On an ultimate level it can and will restore all things and all of God's people in the creation and brining in of the New Kingdom, God's Kingdom.

In our current distress orders of providence are limited, therefore until the Kingdom comes healing will not always be instant and not always be full, therefore all things will eventually break, die, or fail.
 
Thank you for your reply. Although I agree in general with what you say, there is more to what God has shown me that you have not touched on yet. Again, I will wait for awhile to see if there is any other input before I post what God has shown me.

Thanks.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
If you would like To share with us what God has shown you I think that would be cool.
But fishing for excuses to Teach while makeing other feel inferior to you Is not something I can keep quiet about.
Matt.23
[12] And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Luke.14
[11] For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke.18
[14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
If you have the keys to knowledge Share them. But to make people jump through hoops to make yourself feel important Is somthing I find distasteful.
Matt.23
[13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
My father is a pastor and he would constantly dangle his "understanding" of scripture infront of your nose so that he could get as many people to worship him and his understanding as if righteousness was a popularity contest. With the more people that believe you to be of god the more likely you are to be of God. This concept is as far from the truth as it can get.

But instead we should be as God giveing freely what we know to those that seek to learn.
Luke.11
[9] And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Matt.7
[7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

1Cor.14
[37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
[38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Matt.7
[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Dont you think that we all have an understanding that others here have no knowledge of? Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables. He did it to divide between those that were seeking and those that were fakeing. Those that were seeking would Ask questions. Those that were not walked away acting enlightened when they actually understood nothing. This tactic you use to teach will only bring to you those people that seek a man to follow. We all hear God. WE all know the truth. There is not one greater then another. Learn some humility. If you want my respect that is the only way you are going to get it.
 
That is a problem with some plural truth accepting men. On this earth we seem to be natural leaders especially of our own home. This trait of personalities must be modified slightly to fellowship with each other. However, we do need each other for advice, study, and fellowship. In the New Test. it talks of one speaking and the others judging. That is basically what happens around here, so go ahead and say what God has given you and do not be afraid that it will not sound up to par. If God has given you something, then share it. Our opinions will only sharpen the truth to yourself and others. Plural accepting Christians are a very special group. They do not want denomination and charisma. I personally view most self-appointed religious leaders and preachers as westernized witch doctors or shamans. If they were in eastern or 3rd world areas that is what they would probably be. And if these individuals are skilled enough to move to western countries, the only occupation they would probably be qualified for is to be a preacher or maybe an insurance agent. (but perhaps its my attitude problem). It basically involves convincing someone that what they have is insufficient or their best still does not attain and then quickly slipping the insurance policy for signature or the correct scriptural truth to the exclusion of all other possibilities. And if you want more of this top of the line truth, then follow me, read what I write. I will help you look right. I will tell you how to eat and when and what to eat, but most of all, your money ............I am sure that's enough said. Tell us your truth from God and we here will all go to God and ask Him if He really told you that, because of course........we all have a direct line to God. Having the only direct line to God can be very lonely, we share because you have the direct line also, it's fun, it's fellowship. We love Jesus as Jesus shows Himself in others. Show us your Jesus and it will be worthy for Christ is worthy. (You/me might be wrong, but if a Christian still worthy of fellowship.)
 
I am sorry to offend. I have not had the opportunity to be involved with this type of forum before, especially with people who share an understanding of one of the deeper issues of God that is being revealed in this time. Therefore, if I approached this in what you feel is an inappropriate manner then I apologize. My intent was to see what the Holy Spirit had revealed to this unique group of people on other subjects that are controversial in the 'mainstream' church and not well received. I figured if God had revealed the things about polygyny to you as He independently had to me, then I would know that I had found the people that I have been praying to find. I did not want to color anyone's revelations with what God had told me until I gave people an opportunity to voice their understanding. I also wanted to keep it on the lighter side until I got to know people here better, because some of the things that God has given me are quite serious and sometimes harsh. However, it seems as though I have only offended with my approach. What God has spoken to me is powerful and I know there are people just like me all around the world who are also 'hidden'. I had hoped that this group might be among them. However, it may be best for me to withdraw and just say that if you want the information, then visit the website God had me build at http://www.perfectchristian.110mb.com. All the information is there. It is free as God has graciously given it freely to me. I do not ask people for money. Like Paul, I work and give and have done this all my life, so I am not trying to solicit followers for their money. I just want to find the true, obedient people of God that He has shown me exist.

Again, I apologize.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
DrRay777 said:
I figured if God had revealed the things about polygyny to you as He independently had to me, then I would know that I had found the people that I have been praying to find. I did not want to color anyone's revelations with what God had told me until I gave people an opportunity to voice their understanding.
Click to expand...

If you had the understanding that you claim and the revelation that you claim wouldn't then God give you revelation that you found the right people instead of feeling you had to "challenge" everyone to make yourself superior. If you have such an awesome link with God then ask him when you want to discern what someones beliefs are. It is one of the holy gifts that God has given us the ability to discern someones spirit.
1cor 12:10-11
[10]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Just a thought.
 
It seems that everyone here is independent in their line of thinking. That is why God has instilled in our hearts what he has. We can't be followers or we would follow the worldly things as other people have. You have to be independent to follow Christ. None of us are perfect and we all have different ways of getting our points across. Some of these seem harsh, but if a person can't over look these differences, then they are not much of a Godly person. Look at what God overlooks on everyone of us! :cry:
This is just an observation.

Dairyfarmer
 
A soft answer turneth back fury, And a grievous word raiseth up anger.

It appears that I am not the only one here who needs to go to charm school . . .
 
One final word. After re-reading these posts I understand that I was misunderstood. :oops: I was not trying in any way to be thought of as superior. God is the One responsible for ALL that I know. I cannot and do not take credit for any of it. I was trying to ‘challenge’ people to get involved in thought provoking discussions about controversial issues that are important to the body of Christ for the days in which we live so that we can all grow from it. I know that God speaks to you, otherwise you would not know about the polygyny thing. I was trying to find out what God is saying to you about this and other things. God does not reveal everything to any one person. Otherwise they would not need the other members in the body. We must all learn from one another. That is what I was after in all this. Again, I am new to this type of thing. It seems as though I have failed in my attempt. Therefore I offer one final apology and pray that all goes well you.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
Prithee Ray don't say final word just yet, communications are a difficult thing and on a text only forum we all lack the subtle tones and cues that facilitate understanding. It's been said a few times how you're initial post came off on a wrong tone, and you've agreed to that, so now we better understand you're tone and intent. The second problem, which I was in my own way trying to point out, is that the question posed is extremely open ended. From it you may mean to be asking where the line between using opiates medically and using them as phamesutika sorcery is. You may be getting at what is the truth about when God will come and heal all things. You may, and probably are, asking about supernatural healing as Christians use it. There are a great many other things about healing that are true, one may, and people have, filled books about them.

Healing is a good topic, so if you would please do restate the question in more specific terms so we may discuss the aspect of healing you wish to discuss.
 
welltan said:
In the New Test. it talks of one speaking and the others judging. That is basically what happens around here, so go ahead and say what God has given you and do not be afraid that it will not sound up to par. If God has given you something, then share it.
Click to expand...

Well said welltan. Sometimes I wish I knew how to be more subtle about these subjects. But I never seem able to pull it off convincingly. I think this is one of the best definitions of how men and women of god should fellowship I have ever seen. Where is that in scripture. It sounds very familiar. any way thank for the quote I would like to use it if you dont mind. Peace, the 6H
 
These are the scriptures I was speaking of. Notice that it is part of the process of the leaders speaking. No leader should not welcome the opinion of the wise men upon what he says. It is part of the checks and balances. Without this feedback on what we say, we determine ourselves to have had the final solution or truth. When that happens, the best of us stop growing. No man is above the fellowship of truth.

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1 Corinthians 14:28-30

I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
1 Corinthians 10:14-16

There scriptures that say not to judge but they are reserving determination and punishment of sin and other elements to God.

The following scripture is remarkable.

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:5-7
 
Thank for that sir. I really apreciate it.
 
Hey Dr. Ray,
First off keep posting there Brother, for that is how we ALL learn from one another. The Lord may have given you in-site into something that others have not seen as of yet or have shown you something different than he has shown me.

Now to your post......As an ole country boy all I can say is God never got out of the healing business nor that of answering prayers.
 
When Jesus baptized me in the Holy Spirit almost ten years ago, He spoke through a prophet and said to me, “I call you Luke because you are a physician, but I AM the Great Physician and I will teach you the truth about healing.” Since that time until now He has fulfilled that prophecy. The summary of the complex issue of sickness and healing as God has revealed to me is this, (as some of the comments above have touched upon already) when someone gets sick there is something out of order in that person’s life and for them to be truly healed they need to go to God and get order restored. Just as with most things that God does, sickness is largely symbolic. I often tell people that if someone gets gonorrhea, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out where it came from. The question then is why would any other sickness be any different? The answer is they are not. Sickness is spiritual correction from God in order to encourage us to move away from sin and toward Him, (Deuteronomy 32:39). I tell people if it takes cancer to keep someone out of the lake of fire it will be worth it in the long run and it shows the love of the Father. The disciples knew this principle that is outlined particularly in Deuteronomy chapter 28, (see also chapters 29-32) which is why when they asked Jesus whose sin it was that caused the man to be born blind, his or his parents’, Jesus told them it was neither. Thus, not all physical maladies are a direct result of sin, (though virtually all sicknesses are) but are still given in order to fulfill God’s purposes, (see the book of Job and John chapter 9).

Once this mystery is understood, then it becomes relatively simple to receive a healing from God. I have found that non-believers often get a healing quite easily. However, for most Christians healing becomes a process, since the sickness is a ‘thermostat’ for the issue that they need to allow God to correct in their life. For example, I have received healings from God for a number of problems, (most have come over time as I allowed God to deal with the underlying issues) and by the grace of God I must keep those things at bay DAILY, since Jesus is our ‘Daily Bread’ of life. Therefore, when someone gets healed they need to pray and work with God against the root of the problem and thank God every day for that healing, otherwise the sickness may come back, or something worse may happen, (John 5:1-15). Also there is ‘preventative medicine’ in communion. Therefore, if a person has a right heart, in other words they have ‘judged themselves’, then they should endeavor to take communion every day. This will help keep sickness at bay, since ‘by Jesus’ stripes we were healed’, (Isaiah 53:5 and I Peter 2:24). There is healing in the bread of communion when taken with a right heart, (I Corinthians chapters 10-11). It is better not to take communion if there is strife in the person’s life. This is why I virtually never get sick, and if I do get sick I usually get healed quickly, since I go straight to God, repent and get His help to set things in order. Through this principle I have helped many people get healed from problems and sicknesses that have no cure in the natural. An example would be with the man who currently studies with me. When I met him, he had diabetes. I asked God why and He told me that there was no sweetness in the man’s marriage. I then asked the man when he developed the problem and he said just after he got married. Thus it became rather straightforward, though not easy, to get him healed. He is now healed and his marriage is restored based upon this principle and the other principles espoused by Jesus. That is why it is not necessary to watch too carefully what we eat, but rather we must watch more carefully what comes out of our mouths, (Matthew 15:1-20). I would be most interested in what you have to add to this.


Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
I agree that there is more to healing then just an instant miracle, which do happen sometimes. Paul struggled with his thorn in the flesh and not to start a discussion of what the thorn was, it allows that a physical struggle can happen with any of us. (He asked God to remove it three times. He didn't ask the fourth time perhaps because maybe God removed it.) I viewed healing somewhat as a Biblical narrative and also never experienced or saw it until I was filled with the Holy Spirit. My brother once called me and said that his daughter had meningitis and was not doing good and asked me to pray for her. God told me to pray and fast and God gave me an image of a small baby clothed in a garment where every stitch referred to the name of Jesus. She was healed by God. That was a very quick healing. A few years ago I was diagnosed with a leaky aortic heart valve. I remember talking to the heart doctor about artificial valves. The test showed the leakage was “moderate to sever”. They gave it another year and we prayed and it did not get worse. Two years later (last week). They ran another test and I waited in the room for the heart doctor. He finally came in and had not read the results and left to read the results. A long time later, he returned and proclaimed my heart was fine and the leakage was “trivial”. That is a word that is remarkable and I give God the glory for the healing. This was not an instant healing.
 
Firstly, Erasmus, you're comment is well met, but I think Doc was addressing that when he said:

"Thus, not all physical maladies are a direct result of sin, though virtually all sicknesses are"

Sight would be in the first category, but sight is still worth further discussion too.

Doc and General,
It's clear about St.Paul's thorn in the flesh, God replied to him:
And he hath said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

From Job to Christ to St.Paul we are given clear example that not all, or probably even most, illnesses or weaknesses are a result of personal sin. That is not to say I'm disagreeing with Doc, if anything I would be more firm and say all sickness and death are direct results of sin. ¿Will there be illness when His Kingdom has come? There are clear cut cases, such as those Doc mentioned as a starting point, in which someone does something stupid and illness directly results. It must be remembered that sin is not a merely personal thing, it doesn't just hurt the self, but others as well. Midevil doctors neglected Mosaic purity laws and would do such things as an autopsy then a birthing in succession, without so much as washing their hands. The resulting infections did not affect the doctors themselves, but many children and mothers died because of their neglect. The patients where innocent of the peculiar sin directly causing their deaths. Further out we have things in our lives which is nothing to do with a peculiar sin, but is part of our learning and growth in God, or something that keeps us in check. That too is part of sin, but as a universal, we have all failed, we all need to learn, and God will put things in our life that help us learn weather we like them or not. The cancer patient Doc talked about is on that line, no one would say he got cancer because he was not Christian, Christians get it too, but in that case the man came to Christ, in the Christians case he may use that to learn and grow in other ways.

Thus I should note what I said earlier "Healing is the order of ongoing providence that restores systems to a natural, productive state." Can more simply be said "Healing is God restoring his order"

The danger of the doctrine (and I'm not saying you're not aware of this Doc, just pointing it out in general) is that if it is not met with equal amounts of humility it would bring one to look for personal sin and fault for every illness (indeed, everything) that befell them. No, thats not quite the right way to say what I'm saying. The danger is that one would think themselves better than another on the basis of their illness. Pride and self exultation is the most dangerous thing to all of us. Indeed, even St.Paul said he was given his thorn in the flesh to keep him from being proud. Even in his humility and prayer God would not relive him of it, and in the end St.Paul thanks the lord for his illness, saying it is another mark of how in his weakness he is strong thanks to Christ.

The doctrine may be true, but if its something that causes us to be proud we're all better not knowing or understanding.

The second paragraph I wouldn't venture to comment on. I am called under the Logos rather than the Physician. I've only ever effectively prayed for someones healing in a pinch, such things are simply not given to me to often do. For the method of healing and the process I can only defer to you're experience and read it with interest.
 
I agree with all that you said and appreciate your input. Sickness is a sign of disorder and imperfection in the person’s life. Healing as you say is God restoring His order. How and if He may choose to heal a person is dependant upon what is in the best long term interest of that person. That is why I said if it takes cancer to keep someone close to God and ultimately out of the lake of fire then it is God showing His love from an eternal perspective and will be worth it for that person in the long run. The cancer is a temporary measure to help that person enter the kingdom of heaven, (speaking of believers here). In the case of a non-believer the sickness such as cancer may be, (though this is not always the case) designed to bring the person to Christ. This is what brought many to Him when He was here, like moths to the flame. That is why evangelists, (e.g., Reinhardt Bonke) usually operate in the gift of healing and miracles.

The people you mentioned getting sick as a result of the negligence of doctors in the middle ages, (but still happens today) is just another example that the people who got sick did not have the divine protection of God that He promises those who get to the place of perfection in Christ, (psalm 91). Those who abide in Jesus will simply not get sick, period. I have outlined this in my book, (http://www.perfectchristian.110mb.com/perfection_free_book.htm) and it is what I call the ‘life in Christ’. If a person gets to this place, then even death has no power over them, (John 11:25-26).

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26“And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

This is the place that the apostles knew existed and taught about, but did not achieve. When a person gets to this place of perfection in Christ they will never get sick or die. It is our job to get to that place in order for Jesus to come back and is the place that by the grace of God we are trying to get to, (Ephesians 4:10-16). The purpose of the book that God had me write and is found at the above link is to help people understand these things. I believe that only people who are interested in the deeper things of God, (such as polygyny) will be interested enough in obeying God to seek after these truths.

10He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.


Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
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