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Big issue IMO

I live around the projects so being in danger is an every day occurance. I am the only polynesian where I live, bigger problem to some. Aparently spanish and polynesians aren't supposed to get along? I don't have a problem with any one. I don't care if you are gay straight have one wife or a hundred. Cause in the end it is your choice and you have to answer for it in the long run not me. I am not talking about being close minded or violent twords any one. I am simply stating that for some people maybe living openly it would make them feel better as well as their wives. People who have a politcal agenda could see it as a positive cause people acually see people in plural marriage and see they are not freaks or monsters cause that's mostly what we see or hear on the ones who have been on TV and known to the public.

@Tailoc: I think you have misunderstood me. I am not really down for any ones agenda. I am not closing my mind or putting them down for being scarred or cautious. I am just saying what I have seen in my life the good that has come from being honest. So if you took it as I am an instigator you are way off bro. Look bro you have your way of doin things and I have mine. Not saying either was better. Just that my way is better for me. I am more of a revolutionary. I do feel the need to not feel opressed. Some wish to stay opressed. I am not saying my way of life is for every one, but it is for some. We are all different people from different places with different ideas and that's what makes this website so great!

I am just the type of person who knows too many people that would be hurt if I wasn't honest. I feel as if I am open about my life it makes me acountable in my own mind. If no one else wants to live that way then by all means don't. If how ever you feel guilt for having to hide who you are from every one then by all means it's probably time to come clean.
 
BTW I have noticed also that a lot of people on here are talking of being one way for conversion reasons. Honestly plural marriage is not some thing I am trying to convert people to. I am trying to convert them to Christ. I order to do so I have to be real with them if they as me. I am not trying to convert people to plural marriage nor am I trying to scare them away if that makes any since. I weight 270lbs I am to heavy to walk on egg shells.
 
Revgill87123 said:
I weight 270lbs I am to heavy to walk on egg shells.
Click to expand...
LOL I pretty closely resemble that remark!

@Keith, your initial story sounded pretty nice. And if it works for you, fine. but as I remember the civil rights movement, 100 years had passed since the civil war (or so) when one woman quietly, firmly, politely, but OPENLY said, "I'm not going to the back of the bus."

It seems that is all that RevGill, Fairlight, and I (on other threads) are saying. Nothing wrong with quiet, polite, and firm. Doesn't have to be raucous. Your extreme was not proposed. But we oughta be OPEN if we truly believe in it.

If some of us have problems as a result, well, let them start with me. I love all y'alls enough to be the pointy end of the spear if necessary. Oh wait! They already did! And I lived through it. :lol:

On the other hand, as to the ethics and strict "tell everything you know" thinking, we oughta let the Bible illustrate for itself. If we do, we'll find God telling Samuel to go anoint David as king -- a pretty big deal as there was a sitting king on the throne. God also told him to stage a diversion by loudly announcing he was going to hold a sacrifice as cover. So we have God teaching Samuel to deceive in the name of preservation, and denying information to those with no right to know who are in a position and of a disposition to cause damage. Seems pretty clear.

Having said that, back to the other side. You, Dr Keith, are who you are, with the education you have, because a drunken monk said (in educated German of course), "Ah, PHOOEY!" and openly posted 96 (is that the right number? 97?) thesis on a big old oak door where the whole bloomin' community could see them.

I guess we all got raised with different ideas, but I got raised with the idea that old Martin done good!

Oh! And he GOT a wife out of the deal by-me-by. Not bad for a RC monk. So did I. Cool!
 
@Keith, your initial story sounded pretty nice. And if it works for you, fine. but as I remember the civil rights movement, 100 years had passed since the civil war (or so) when one woman quietly, firmly, politely, but OPENLY said, "I'm not going to the back of the bus."

Cecil, yes, at times this is the right thing to do. But this is something that the Lord has to lead a person to do. It is not, as Dr. Kant would say, something that is required of every person in all places at all times. I agree with you totally that at times in some situations the Lord will lead someone to disobey an authority for a higher cause (certainly the apostles did in sharing the gospel). What I'm stressing, which I think Rev. Gill is also agreeing to, that there are times as well when because of wisdom in the Lord one should not make it an issue (but Rev also stresses the other point about not living in fear as well), to which I think you also agree with as well. So it seems like we have arrived at a consensus point there.

And you are most certainly right as well Cecil that I, along with many others, have indeed been blessed by an Evangelical Education because of Dr. Martin Luther's stand. Excellent point and reminder! Had God not raised him up to do what he had done we might still be under Rome's rule and there may have not even been an America. So thanks be to God he led Luther to take a stand for a universal truth, the gospel. The gospel is a universal law that all are required to repent and believe.

We are commanded to preach the gospel to all. It is a higher or highest law within the scheme of God's theological triage order. One can miss the doctrine of marriage and not die and go to hell, but if one misses the gospel one will go to hell. The Lord commanded for the gospel to be preached unto all. The doctrine of marriage would not be of the same level of importance. THAT IS NOT TO SUGGEST IT IS UNIMPORTANT. Marriage is certainly important, and I agree that it needs to be taught, lived out, and shared, but it certainly is not of the same level of importance as the gospel. As Dr. Al Mohler and Dr. Danny Akin would say, "there is a triage or higher to lower level order in doctrines." Jesus stated there were "more important matters of the law" (Matt. 23:23) as well as stating that there is an idea of "greater sin" and lesser sin (John 19:11). This shows us that there is a rank or higher and lower laws of the Bible which gives people a basis for determining under the guidance of the Spirit when to share and not to share based upon the most important need at the moment. Dr. Norman Geisler would call it a graded scale where some laws or some doctrines are of higher importance than others. This, as I understand evangelical theology, gives theological weight and substance to the law of emphasis. For example, if one places his/her main focus on one particular spiritual gift more so than the gospel then they are out of harmony and order with the major doctrines of the Bible. Spiritual gifts are important but the gospel would take a higher seat. Spiritual gifts would be a secondary or tertiary doctrine when evaluated in light of the gospel. Likewise, in some cases to share the doctrine of marriage would not fit with the most urgent need of the hour. In some cases it would. No one rule other than being led by the Spirit can be made in this area.

So that is my word of caution here, which I think there is a pretty fair amount of agreement among us, that one should NOT live in fear, but one should not make the doctrine of marriage so much of an emphasis that it overides every other doctrine, especially the doctrine of the gospel. And that then means in some places it is right and holy to share and in some cases it is not right or wise to share or be so open.

So it sounds like there is agreement in this thread of the following:
1. It is important to share this truth.
2. In some cases it is wise to share and in some cases it is wise not to be so open and public.
3. One should not be ashamed or afraid of their biblical faith yet one should be mature and responsible, not reckless, in the approach or manner in which they share.

It looks like this is where most of us are landing on this topic.

Dr. Allen
 
Number 2 I am not cool with. I would take both wives with me not to flaunt, but too spend time together as a whole family.

Dr. K.R. Allen said:
@Keith, your initial story sounded pretty nice. And if it works for you, fine. but as I remember the civil rights movement, 100 years had passed since the civil war (or so) when one woman quietly, firmly, politely, but OPENLY said, "I'm not going to the back of the bus."

Cecil, yes, at times this is the right thing to do. But this is something that the Lord has to lead a person to do. It is not, as Dr. Kant would say, something that is required of every person in all places at all times. I agree with you totally that at times in some situations the Lord will lead someone to disobey an authority for a higher cause (certainly the apostles did in sharing the gospel). What I'm stressing, which I think Rev. Gill is also agreeing to, that there are times as well when because of wisdom in the Lord one should not make it an issue (but Rev also stresses the other point about not living in fear as well), to which I think you also agree with as well. So it seems like we have arrived at a consensus point there.

And you are most certainly right as well Cecil that I, along with many others, have indeed been blessed by an Evangelical Education because of Dr. Martin Luther's stand. Excellent point and reminder! Had God not raised him up to do what he had done we might still be under Rome's rule and there may have not even been an America. So thanks be to God he led Luther to take a stand for a universal truth, the gospel. The gospel is a universal law that all are required to repent and believe.

We are commanded to preach the gospel to all. It is a higher or highest law within the scheme of God's theological triage order. One can miss the doctrine of marriage and not die and go to hell, but if one misses the gospel one will go to hell. The Lord commanded for the gospel to be preached unto all. The doctrine of marriage would not be of the same level of importance. THAT IS NOT TO SUGGEST IT IS UNIMPORTANT. Marriage is certainly important, and I agree that it needs to be taught, lived out, and shared, but it certainly is not of the same level of importance as the gospel. As Dr. Al Mohler and Dr. Danny Akin would say, "there is a triage or higher to lower level order in doctrines." Jesus stated there were "more important matters of the law" (Matt. 23:23) as well as stating that there is an idea of "greater sin" and lesser sin (John 19:11). This shows us that there is a rank or higher and lower laws of the Bible which gives people a basis for determining under the guidance of the Spirit when to share and not to share based upon the most important need at the moment. Dr. Norman Geisler would call it a graded scale where some laws or some doctrines are of higher importance than others. This, as I understand evangelical theology, gives theological weight and substance to the law of emphasis. For example, if one places his/her main focus on one particular spiritual gift more so than the gospel then they are out of harmony and order with the major doctrines of the Bible. Spiritual gifts are important but the gospel would take a higher seat. Spiritual gifts would be a secondary or tertiary doctrine when evaluated in light of the gospel. Likewise, in some cases to share the doctrine of marriage would not fit with the most urgent need of the hour. In some cases it would. No one rule other than being led by the Spirit can be made in this area.

So that is my word of caution here, which I think there is a pretty fair amount of agreement among us, that one should NOT live in fear, but one should not make the doctrine of marriage so much of an emphasis that it overides every other doctrine, especially the doctrine of the gospel. And that then means in some places it is right and holy to share and in some cases it is not right or wise to share or be so open.

So it sounds like there is agreement in this thread of the following:
1. It is important to share this truth.
2. In some cases it is wise to share and in some cases it is wise not to be so open and public.
3. One should not be ashamed or afraid of their biblical faith yet one should be mature and responsible, not reckless, in the approach or manner in which they share.

It looks like this is where most of us are landing on this topic.

Dr. Allen
Click to expand...
 
Granted maybe not for you personally but I don't think you would tell every person in every plural marriage that they are required to purposefully share everything with anyone at any and every place who asks or speaks to the family out in public with no discretion used. I seriously doubt that is what you mean.

I think what you are saying is that for you, you have the freedom (or think you would have in the future) in the Lord to be out in public with your wife or wives (I suppose you have two wives, I'm not sure I recall?), but even in that being out in public is not the same as sharing or disclosing everything in detail about each person of the family out in public.

Is that not an accurate summary of how you see that?

Dr. Allen
 
No you got it right!
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
Granted maybe not for you personally but I don't think you would tell every person in every plural marriage that they are required to purposefully share everything with anyone at any and every place who asks or speaks to the family out in public with no discretion used. I seriously doubt that is what you mean.

I think what you are saying is that for you, you have the freedom (or think you would have in the future) in the Lord to be out in public with your wife or wives (I suppose you have two wives, I'm not sure I recall?), but even in that being out in public is not the same as sharing or disclosing everything in detail about each person of the family out in public.

Is that not an accurate summary of how you see that?

Dr. Allen
Click to expand...
 
Ok the "no" part of that answer confused me :?

No to what i thought you were saying or yes my summary of what i think you were saying is correct?

My apologies for misunderstanding here.
 
Yes you were correct.
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
Ok the "no" part of that answer confused me :?

No to what i thought you were saying or yes my summary of what i think you were saying is correct?

My apologies for misunderstanding here.
Click to expand...
 
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
So it sounds like there is agreement in this thread of the following:
1. It is important to share this truth.
2. In some cases it is wise to share and in some cases it is wise not to be so open and public.
3. One should not be ashamed or afraid of their biblical faith yet one should be mature and responsible, not reckless, in the approach or manner in which they share.

It looks like this is where most of us are landing on this topic.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. But not quite where I am landing, nor where I think I heard RevGill's original post to stand.

I personally believe we oughta be completely open and transparent about it, though not pushy, with rare exceptions. When my beliefs changed in the late 90s, I told my family and my pastor and took my lumps. Don't regret doing so. Still think it was best. Continue to do so when I move.

If God ever graces my home with two wives at once, I look forward to shopping, worshiping, and dining out together. I won't wear sandwich boards that say, "Hey! Look at me! By society's standards I'm odd -- I got two wives! You should, too!" (Extreme, for fun and illustration, but it WOULD be provoking!) But neither will I do the stuff I've heard of, where the husband says his second wife is his first wife's sister, etc. *shrug*

Others are welcome to do different. These are my ideas, but I'm no model of perfection or authority. And I think it is pretty much what RevGill was saying.

Regardless, I do think that all of us would do better to adopt a similar plan. I think, and again it is my personal observation, that a lot of folks here cause themselves MORE stress and do our "cause" MORE damage by being TOO discreet than they would by openness at the level I espouse (not the extreme of your example, Dr. Keith.)

As to theology, and hierarchies, hmmm. I happen to think that a right understanding of family has a LOT to do with salvation, as it deeply impacts our view of God who describes His relation to us so often in familial terms. Again, I could be wrong. But I do know that the improved understanding I've received as regards family has had and continues to have a deep and positive impact on my relationship with God.
 
Fair enough. But not quite where I am landing, nor where I think I heard RevGill's original post to stand.
Click to expand...

I agree its not really where RevGill's OP stood, but if its where his posts are now thats the prime example of a productive converstaion.

Cecil I think you oughta remember that that good ol drunken monk spent the first half of his life humming and hawing and talking to people bit by bit so that by the time he hit the wall (or rather, the door) he had the scholars and people of his city behind him. He was also addressing issues that had been bubbling for decades, he quickly had a solid foundation of support from people across the strata of society because of the not so successful work done before his time that was just coming to fruition. He was no one man revolution, but a figurehead for what was already going on in his society. Same deal with Ms. Anthony, she would probably not even make the footnotes of history if people whern't already ready to support her.

We don't have the whole 'dam is about to burst' phenomenon these people had backing them. We're still in the gathering support phase, and it seems to be going very well at least in the last 5 years or so, but discretion isn't a bad thing in our case or in any case. Of course discretion can mean hammering the nail down hard and blunt sometimes, I've done that and had it work well, but its not the only way to go about things.

@Gill,

It must be my Hispanic culture causing issues with your Polynesian culture then :lol: But I never took you as an instigator, I only ever wanted you to have a respect for the people who do have to be silent about who they are because they put their family safety above their voice. So far as I can tell thats settled. Peace :)


@ Scarecrow
If you remember please do message me. I would be interested. I don't recall anything from my readthroughs (which is kind of normal, most people notice new things each readthrough even when they've read through every year for decades) and a cursory search didn't give me anything (also not really unusual). I'd appreciate it if you had anything.
 
Thank you! Cecil you got that way with words that I do not. You are much like me on this stance. Thak you I thought I was never gonna be able to translate what I ment to where people can understand!
I have not been on the mainland long enough.
:D
CecilW said:
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
So it sounds like there is agreement in this thread of the following:
1. It is important to share this truth.
2. In some cases it is wise to share and in some cases it is wise not to be so open and public.
3. One should not be ashamed or afraid of their biblical faith yet one should be mature and responsible, not reckless, in the approach or manner in which they share.

It looks like this is where most of us are landing on this topic.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. But not quite where I am landing, nor where I think I heard RevGill's original post to stand.

I personally believe we oughta be completely open and transparent about it, though not pushy, with rare exceptions. When my beliefs changed in the late 90s, I told my family and my pastor and took my lumps. Don't regret doing so. Still think it was best. Continue to do so when I move.

If God ever graces my home with two wives at once, I look forward to shopping, worshiping, and dining out together. I won't wear sandwich boards that say, "Hey! Look at me! By society's standards I'm odd -- I got two wives! You should, too!" (Extreme, for fun and illustration, but it WOULD be provoking!) But neither will I do the stuff I've heard of, where the husband says his second wife is his first wife's sister, etc. *shrug*

Others are welcome to do different. These are my ideas, but I'm no model of perfection or authority. And I think it is pretty much what RevGill was saying.

Regardless, I do think that all of us would do better to adopt a similar plan. I think, and again it is my personal observation, that a lot of folks here cause themselves MORE stress and do our "cause" MORE damage by being TOO discreet than they would by openness at the level I espouse (not the extreme of your example, Dr. Keith.)

As to theology, and hierarchies, hmmm. I happen to think that a right understanding of family has a LOT to do with salvation, as it deeply impacts our view of God who describes His relation to us so often in familial terms. Again, I could be wrong. But I do know that the improved understanding I've received as regards family has had and continues to have a deep and positive impact on my relationship with God.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Polygyny, Romas 14 and 1 Cor 10:23-33

Another Word regulating the practice of polygyny is 1 Cor 10, again paraphrased for application:
'23 "All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. 24 No one should seek his own benefit, but the benefit of his neighbor. 25 [Practice any legal form of marriage you wish] without raising any question on the ground of conscience. . . . 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to [a public polygynous meeting] and you are disposed to go, [partake in the event] without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “[The public practice of polygyny is illegal here and sinful],” then do not [attend being publicly polygynous] it [or argue about or pass judgment on doubtful and disputable polygynous issues, opinions and reasonings], for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— 29 I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my [polygynous] liberty be determined by someone else’s conscience? 30 If I partake [of polygyny] with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? 31 So, whether you [practice monogyny or polygyny], or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.'

Romans 14, here paraphrased for application:
'1As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions, or doubtful issues. . .[Accept and welcome anyone who is weak in faith, but don't argue about or pass judgment on doubtful and disputable issues, opinions and reasonings [like those about polygyny] . . . . 13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by [your polygyny you] are no longer walking in love. By what you [do], do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let [the polygyny] you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of [monogyny or polygyny] but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of [polygyny], destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he [does]. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or [be polygynous in a way] that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith/conviction that you have [about living in polygyny], keep between yourself and God [privately and discretely]. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves [in his/her polygyny]. 23 But whoever has doubts [about being polygynous] is condemned if he [is polygynous], because the [doing of it] is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. 15: 1 Now we who are strong have an obligation to bear the weaknesses of those without strength, and not to please ourselves. 2 Each one of us must please his neighbor for his good, in order to build him up. 3 For even the Messiah did not please Himself . .
 
Revgill87123 said:
I have been around Plural Marriage all my life and have noticed some thing. People are scarred! I mean really scarred, like there is some big PM Boogey man. Hiding around every corner. I understand people are afraid of police and don't want to go to jail. I often wander why practise PM if you are going to run hide and be scarred.
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Gill

I realize you wrote this a bit ago and the topic moved fair afield. I read this and I wondered . . . how close is this to the whole political spectrum that is going on.

People are scared of this goverenment. I have never seen people so scared of their of government in the US then they have been. I have talked with people on the phone who have said questionable things. Then say a quick denial. E.g. You can download music, not that I have ever done that.

Why would that fear not cross over to another area of life that is much easier to prove a crime on.
 
Yeah, you know when I was worried about downloading music I stopped and thought....'Yes, i really know how those Texas compound polygamists felt then their children were taken away....'

It is totally the same thing...

:?
 
I gotta agree with Rev Gill here. If we are afraid, just a little afraid, then we give the devil a stronger leverage than he should have.

Most of us live lives of fear to some extent. How many men shave their faces, not for some functional purpose, but because this is sort of looked up better by society? How about wearing ties? What purpose does wearing a tie serve?

They wanted Christ to submit to the hand washing ritual and He would not. He is a good enough example for me.

And besides, if we cave a little here and a little there, thinking that it will get them off our backs, we are wrong. For the nature of tyranny, by definition, knows no bounds.
 
In Tonga we have a saying " Do not fear man, do not fear death! Cause even if they can take your life they can never take your soul unless you let them." I stick by that in my life. The state has taken most of every thing that I hold dear to me! Including happiness (Being that I never knew happiness before my children) , but they can not take my soul that is mine so I will continue to live the way that God sees me fit to live. Untill the day they pull the plug on me that is how I shall live! Have faith, stand strong and do not ever let any one make you feal as if you are weak! We are all of God's family and as long as we are a part of that we have a soul! As long as we have a soul we will still have life even unto death and there after! This is why I had said all of this before the state ever stepped in my life. It doesn't matter what you believe or how silent you stay cause one false step and your worst fears can become a reality. Honestly the only thing that saved me on the facts of what I believe about polygyny ( as well as what I teach)is the fact that every one knew what I believed there for there was no reason for them to think I was hiding any thing. If I have grave spelling I do apologise in advance my vertigo is kickin me royaly today. Love peace and banana greese till next time we speak maybe monday if I can make it too a comp after work. My number is still the same 505-348-6065 It'll be off though from wed till fri but I'll be back ! Much love to every one though I miss being on here with all of you maybe after a few checks I'll have enough to get a comp then I am back! Till then drop me a line or text!

Memphis Dwight said:
I gotta agree with Rev Gill here. If we are afraid, just a little afraid, then we give the devil a stronger leverage than he should have.

Most of us live lives of fear to some extent. How many men shave their faces, not for some functional purpose, but because this is sort of looked up better by society? How about wearing ties? What purpose does wearing a tie serve?

They wanted Christ to submit to the hand washing ritual and He would not. He is a good enough example for me.

And besides, if we cave a little here and a little there, thinking that it will get them off our backs, we are wrong. For the nature of tyranny, by definition, knows no bounds.
Click to expand...
 
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