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Apocrypha and Book of Enoch?

It is worth noting that the Ethiopian Jew's hold Enoch as canon, as did many early church fathers.

Asforme&myhouse said:
On a side note... can someone point me to the evidence for the first century church using the LXX?
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My understanding is that many of the NT quotations of the OT are reflective of the LXX. Something that always confused me as a kid when I'd go read the OT source quoted in the NT and found them so different.
 
rockfox said:
It is worth noting that the Ethiopian Jew's hold Enoch as canon, as did many early church fathers.



My understanding is that many of the NT quotations of the OT are reflective of the LXX. Something that always confused me as a kid when I'd go read the OT source quoted in the NT and found them so different.
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Are there any writings that specifically say that the LXX was what they were using or is it just surmised from the fact that the New Testament quotes of the Old Testament are very similar to the LXX?
 
The wiki on the Septuagint mentions several evidences that the early church used it. It also lists the biggest reason, which I hadn't thought of at first but is obvious in retrospect: the Greek converts didn't understand Hebrew and the LXX was the major Greek translation in use. The Orthodox still use the LXX.

Here is a really interesting page on this subject.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Are there any writings that specifically say that the LXX was what they were using or is it just surmised from the fact that the New Testament quotes of the Old Testament are very similar to the LXX?
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From what I can tell... scholars come to this conclusion by comparing the NT and early church father quotes to the various manuscripts. Orthodox tradition holds they use the Septuagint from the beginning, which scholorly work on their texts verify. And there are ancient Bibles which contain the OT in LXX form. I'm not sure if there is an early church father who said, "we all use the translation of the 70 for the OT Bibles". But there could be. And there are evidences like the early church used the LXX order of books in their Bible, even in cases where they'd switched to using the Masoretic Text (with different book order).
 
rockfox said:
From what I can tell... scholars come to this conclusion by comparing the NT and early church father quotes to the various manuscripts. Orthodox tradition holds they use the Septuagint from the beginning, which scholorly work on their texts verify. And there are ancient Bibles which contain the OT in LXX form. I'm not sure if there is an early church father who said, "we all use the translation of the 70 for the OT Bibles". But there could be. And there are evidences like the early church used the LXX order of books in their Bible, even in cases where they'd switched to using the Masoretic Text (with different book order).
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Ok that makes sense. I haven’t seen anything that said they did specifically, so I was curious of you guys knew of something I hadn’t seen yet.
 
Caution should be used when considering what the “Jews” accepted in their “Canon”. The Masoretics were comprised of a very small portion of Jews who became very influential for various reasons by the middle of the Second Century and onward. If you are focusing on the Masoretics and what they considered to be canon, Enoch in particular as well as the Testament of the Patriarchs both demand an answer as to why they were not included. The only reason I’ve been able to ascertain is that both specifically prophecy about Jesus as Messiah which qualified them for exclusion. Both were considered ancient (if not the oldest) Scripture and quoted by the apostles and the Jewish culture in general during the First Century. During the Second century and following, a concerted effort was begun to “cleanse” the Scriptures of references that were being used to prove Jesus as Christ. Even going so far as to proclaim and anoint another messiah, Bar Kochba about 130 AD.

Irenaeus Against Heresies 3 Chapter XXI

Regarding the Septuagint. Approx 170 AD

Since, therefore, the Scriptures have been interpreted with such fidelity, and by the grace of God, and since from these God has prepared and formed again our faith towards His Son, and has preserved to us the unadulterated Scriptures in Egypt, where the house of Jacob flourished, fleeing from the famine in Canaan; where also our Lord was preserved when He fled from the persecution set on foot by Herod; and [since] this interpretation of these Scriptures was made prior to our Lord's descent [to earth], and came into being before the Christians appeared-for our Lord was bern about the forty-first year of the reign of Augustus; but Ptolemy was much earlier, under whom the Scriptures were interpreted;-[since these things are so, I say, ] truly these men are proved to be impudent and presumptuous, who would now show a desire to make different translations, when we refute them out of these Scriptures, and shut them up to a belief in the advent of the Son of God. But our faith is stedfast, unfeigned, and the only true one, having clear proof from these Scriptures, which were interpreted in the way I have related; and the preaching of the Church is without interpolation. For the apostles, since they are of more ancient date than all these [heretics], agree with this aforesaid translation; and the translation harmonizes with the tradition of the apostles. For Peter, and John, and Matthew, and Paul, and the rest successively, as well as their followers, did set forth all prophetical [announce-merits], just as the interpretation of the elders contains them.
 
Justin Martyr 150’s AD

CHAPTER XIII.--HISTORY OF THE SEPTUAGINT.

But if any one says that the writings of MoSes and of the rest of the prophets were also written in the Greek character, let him read profane histories, and know that Ptolemy, king of Egypt, when he had built the library in Alexandria, and by gathering books from every quarter had filled it, then learnt that very ancient histories written in Hebrew happened to be carefully preserved; and wishing to know their contents, he sent for seventy wise men from Jerusalem, who were acquainted with both the Greek and Hebrew language, and appointed them to translate the books; and that in freedom from all disturbance they might the more speedily complete the translation, he ordered that there should be constructed, not in the city itself, but seven stadia off(where the Pharos was built), as many little cots as there were translators, so that each by himself might complete his own translation; and enjoined upon those officers who were appointed to this duty, to afford them all attendance, but to prevent communication with one another, in order that the accuracy of the translation might be discernible even by their agreement. And when he ascertained that the seventy men had not only given the same meaning, but had employed the same words, and had failed in agreement with one another not even to the extent of one word; but had written the same things, and concerning the same things, he was struck with amazement, and believed that the translation had been written by divine power, and perceived that the men were worthy of all honour, as beloved of God; and with many gifts ordered them to return to their own country. And having, as was natural, marvelled at the books, and concluded them to be divine, he consecrated them in that library. These things, ye men of Greece, are no fable, nor do we narrate fictions; but we ourselves having been in Alexandria, saw the remains of the little cots at the Pharos still preserved, and having heard these things from the inhabitants, who had received them as part of their country's tradition, we now tell to you what you can also learn from others, and specially from those wise and esteemed men who have written of these things, Philo and Josephus, and many others. But if any of those who are wont to be forward in contradiction should say that these books do not belong to us, but to the Jews, and should assert that we in vain profess to have learnt our religion froth them, let him know, as he may from those very things which are written in these books, that not to them, but to us, does the doctrine of them refer. That the books relating to our religion are to this day preserved among the Jews, has been a work of Divine Providence on our behalf; for lest, by producing them out of the Church, we should give occasion to those who wish to slander us to charge us with fraud, we demand that they be produced from the synagogue of the Jews, that from the very books still preserved among them it might clearly and evidently appear, that the laws which were written by holy men. for instruction pertain to us.
 
The First Apology of Justin Martyr earlychristianwritings.com

CHAPTER XLI -- THE CRUCIFIXION PREDICTED.

And again, in another prophecy, the Spirit of prophecy, through the same David, intimated that Christ, after He had been crucified, should reign, and spoke as follows: "Sing to the Lord, all the earth, and day by day declare His salvation. For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols of devils; but God made the heavens. Glory and praise are before His face, strength and glorying are in the habitation of His holiness. Give Glory to the Lord, the Father everlasting. Receive grace, and enter His presence, and worship in His holy courts. Let all the earth fear before His face; let it be established, and not shaken. Let them rejoice among the nations. The Lord hath reigned from the tree."

This is Justin Martyr quoting from the Bible Psalms 96:10

Our current Masoretic text.

O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

Also Justin Martyr in the Discourse with Tryphos

CHAPTER LXXI -- THE JEWS REJECT THE INTERPRETATION OF THE LXX., FROM WHICH, MOREOVER, THEY HAVE TAKEN AWAY SOME PASSAGES.

"But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy[king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' and say it ought to be read, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof."

Here Trypho remarked, "We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled."

CHAPTER LXXII -- PASSAGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED BY THE JEWS FROM ESDRAS AND JEREMIAH.

And I said, "I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: 'And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.' And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: 'I[was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.' And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews(for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: 'The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.'

CHAPTER LXXIII -- [THE WORDS] "FROM THE WOOD" HAVE BEEN CUT OUT OF PS. XCVI

"And from the ninety-fifth(ninety-sixth) Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David: 'From the wood.' For when the passage said, 'Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned from the wood,' they have left, 'Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned.' Now no one of your people has ever been said to have reigned as God and Lord among the nations, with the exception of Him only who was crucified, of whom also the Holy Spirit affirms in the same Psalm that He was raised again, and freed from[the grave], declaring that there is none like Him among the gods of the nations: for they are idols of demons. But I shall repeat the whole Psalm to you, that you may perceive what has been said. It is thus: 'Sing unto the Lord a new song; sing unto the Lord, all the earth. Sing unto the Lord, and bless His name; show forth His salvation from day to day. Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all people. For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: He is to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are demons but the Lord made the heavens. Confession and beauty are in His presence; holiness and magnificence are in His sanctuary. Bring to the Lord, O ye countries of the nations, bring to the Lord glory and honour, bring to the Lord glory in His name. Take sacrifices, and go into His courts; worship the Lord in His holy temple. Let the whole earth be moved before Him tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned. For He hath established the world, which shall not be moved; He shall judge the nations with equity. Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be glad; let the sea and its fulness shake. Let the fields and all therein be joyful. Let all the trees of the wood be glad before the Lord: for He comes, for He comes to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth.'"

Here Trypho remarked, "Whether[or not] the rulers of the people have erased any portion of the Scriptures, as you affirm, God knows; but it seems incredible."

"Assuredly," said I, "it does seem incredible. For it is more horrible than the calf which they made, when satisfied with manna on the earth; or than the sacrifice of children to demons; or than the slaying of the prophets. But," said I, "you appear to me not to have heard the Scriptures which I said they had stolen away. For such as have been quoted are more than enough to prove the points in dispute, besides those which are retained by us, and shall yet be brought forward."
 
My family and I, we're not Mormons, but we're in the process of reading the Book of Mormon, read it and rereading it. The term "apocrypha", meaning "hidden" or "secret", could certainly apply to the Book of Mormon, in that it's really kept "secret", as far as what it actually says to outsiders of the Mormon church, it's so highly discouraged by the "elders" and "scholars" as an "edible" read for the "laymen" Christians. We are finding it to be just like the Bible, upholding both the law of Moses and the testimony of Yahusha Messiah, pointing out especially how Isaiah prophesied of Messiah Yahusha's coming, stating over and over that Yahusha was YHUH and our Heavenly Father in the flesh - Aluhym and the Almighty. I always heard Mormons weren't really Christians, but ummm, the Book of Mormon is a book that says the same thing about Messiah's identity and roll that the Bible does. Still digesting it, but I'm ranking it up there with Jasher, Jubilees, Enoch, The Twelve Patriarchs, Joseph and Asenath, Yahudith, etc...as well as the Bible...I see no contradiction, and when people point supposed contradictions out to me, I see their lack of faith, ability, and desire to seek how supposed contradictions can possibly be reconciled to support, rather than take away from, the Bible.

Mormons keep crossing our paths in our everyday lives - a previous landlord, real estate manager, neighbor, bank teller, client, grocery cashier, etc..., and I recently started feeling a bond with people who are schooled in that church. They may see the Book of Mormon differently than we do, due to their church doctrines, but I never thought I would see myself as their fellow believer in that book. Now when I meet them, I wonder if they secretly long for a family with multiple wives. I wonder if they have a different view of the Book of Mormon than their church teaches them to.

It's funny now, how we've been around the block, my family and I, in our faith. Dabbled in the Catholic church, the Baptist church, Pentecostal of all kinds, Evangelical, Non-Denominational, Protestant, Lutheran, etc...Oddly, I've felt both comfortable and uncomfortable in every "Judeo-Christian" faith I've ever heard of or "tried on". I rubbed elbows with the Messianics in the synagogues, I've argued with them in the Hebrew Roots congregations that I later left. I enjoy debating with the Mennonite fellow who dug the foundation for our home, who I pray for ardently, and for his wife and 8 sons. He could use another wife or two, lol. The more I study the Bible and the Apocrypha, the more I feel like I'm becoming a more well-rounded believer, more understanding of the various denominations, even though I have struggled for so long what to call myself. Now when asked by the confused grocery store clerk what my faith is, I've now resolved to reply, "Judeo-Christian, but a little more Judeo than most Christians these days." Each denomination has its own faults and strengths, rights and wrongs, and sadly, are getting heavier on the faults and wrongs, and lighter on the strengths and rights. Hopefully, we, as the Bible, and the Apocrypha and the Messiah they point to, illuminate us more and more, can become a light in this ever darkening world...
 
I have not read all of the Book of Mormon, but I am approx 90% of the way through it. From my reading of it, I would place it on par with a couple of the Jasher’s in existence, notably the Ti Burtzloff editions (This is under no circumstances a recommendation for his books) and other imposters from the Middle Ages.

Here are some interesting sites on the origins of the Book of Mormon
http://20truths.info/mormon/plagiarism.html
https://cesletter.org/1769-kjv-errors/

As you will see in these sites, Mr Smith was a man with either a great imagination, or a man with a great memory who utilized other men’s imaginations and plagiarized them as his own.

One of my ahah moments was when he translates the passage that prophesies about Mr Smith himself. Oh the hubris.

Even the Mormons who are in the know will admit that the biggest problem with the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is that there is absolutely not a smidgen of archeological evidence to support the claims of the massive civilizations and cities that are presented in the B o M.

It was somewhat entertaining initially, but didnt take me long to realize it was a fraud of the very imaginative order. I forced myself to read through it as much as I did because I was trying to find out where the Mormons get their doctrine of polygamy. If its in there, I didnt find it.
 
Guessing Mormon polygamy comes out of either Pearl of Great Price or Doctrines and Covenants. Likely the latter. I had opportunity to 'borrow' both books from an LDS Ward, but didn't. Half of me us glad I didn't and half wishes I had....
 
Verfyveritas76 -

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/what-does-the-book-of-mormon-say-about-polygamy

Jacob 2:29-30 is where the Book of Mormon mentions the concept that Yah sometimes COMMANDS, not just allows, plural wives, when He sees need to increase the seed of His people, like in the days of Abraham and Jacob (and seems to suggest that this might also be true in the last days, or today, as we are waking up, repenting, and realizing the Law wasn't done away with, including the law of plural wives). To many people, the Book of Mormon seems to condemn the practice of plural wives, but as the above article points out, it only condemns the exploitation of it, due to the sins of the people, and David and Solomon's use of it and sexual sins with their wives and concubines (remember David's adultery with how he acquired Bathsheba, and how Solomon took many foreign wives who led him into idolatry, which Yah warned him about). Anyway, you can read the explanations in the article...

Also, as far as Joseph Smith and what he may say about himself, I would caution people on reading into which Joseph the Book of Mormon speaks of, and the church doctrines and commentaries about Joseph Smith or what he believed, did, said, or taught. I'm not saying Joseph Smith was a prophet, I'm not saying he was not. There are many people who have written translations of the Bible and the Apocrypha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc...but I would not consider any of them to be prophets or perfect in any way. They are just people, and I think the Mormon church has almost deified Joseph Smith and made him to be a Saint. I'm not a Mormon, I don't endorse Doctrines and Covenants or any of the Mormon doctrines. I consider the Book of Mormon to be inspired, and I've had Mormons try to push on me that this means I must then believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet and that everything they say he said is to be inspired, but I don't see how the Book of Mormon being true equates to Joseph Smith being a prophet and all his words inspired anymore than my considering my KJV to be inspired means that I need to obey everything that King James I ever said. I don't consider Greg Laurie a prophet just because he interpreted my version of the New Living Translation.

The archeological evidence and civilizations you say are missing are found in the existence of the Native Americans, and objects like the Jubilee Stone of the Cherokee Indians.
 
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enlargeourtents said:
The archeological evidence and civilizations you say are missing are found in the existence of the Native Americans, and objects like the Jubilee Stone of the Cherokee Indians.
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I know that this is what they would like to claim, however, the existence of other artifacts like the Los Lunas stone in New Mexico that has the Ten Commandments enscribed with Paleo Hebrew dating back to the time of Solomon gives a much more viable explanation for the Jubilee Stone. IMO they are piggybacking off of the actual Jewish contact and minor settlements but have created a fantastic narrative that has no resemblance to the reality. I am aware that there are evidences of Jewish contact on the North American continent, as well as Roman and Phonecian to name a few. This does not support the narrative of the Book of Mormon beyond the extent that Joseph Smith incorporated it into his narrative, basing (plagiarizing) it off of the work of Ethan Smith, pastor and author of the book View of the Hebrews, 1823

3FD684EF-8C44-473B-AB7F-693BB56F0689.png
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Elder Roberts closes these parallels with this imposing question:

"Can such numerous and startling points of resemblance and suggestive contact be merely coincidence?" (B. H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, (University of Illinois Press, 1985), p. 242)
Joseph borrowed liberally from the Bible in creating the Book of Mormon. Approximately 25,000 words in the Book of Mormon consist of passages from the Old Testament, mainly chapters from Isaiah that Ethan Smith mentioned in View of the Hebrews. Another 2,000 words were taken from the New Testament. (Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History, p. 58)
 
enlargeourtents said:
Jacob 2:29-30 is where the Book of Mormon mentions the concept that Yah sometimes COMMANDS, not just allows, plural wives, when He sees need to increase the seed of His people, like in the days of Abraham and Jacob (and seems to suggest that this might also be true in the last days, or today, as we are waking up, repenting, and realizing the Law wasn't done away with, including the law of plural wives). To many people, the Book of Mormon seems to condemn the practice of plural wives, but as the above article points out, it only condemns the exploitation of it, due to the sins of the people, and David and Solomon's use of it and sexual sins with their wives and concubines (remember David's adultery with how he acquired Bathsheba, and how Solomon took many foreign wives who led him into idolatry, which Yah warned him about). Anyway, you can read the explanations in the article...
Click to expand...

Perhaps you have a different translation of the Book of Mormon. Mine reads a little differently.
Jacob 2:23-35
But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

As I understand it, permission for poly didnt come until some time later through a new revelation.
 
Decades ago I had information on the revisions that have been made to the book over the years due to new revelations.
I wish that I still had it, some of them were duezies. The only that I can remember that was deleted was that God had told Moses to make a hole in the bottom of the ark to let the rainwater drain out.

Edit: Noah o_O
 
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