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Any Theonomists here?
- Thread starter SerenaJoy82
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Nothing I say will ever convince you, or anyone who believes that there are still animal sacrifices to be made in the future. I don't read that. I read this.
John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
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Foreshadowing what?
Logically, if there is something foreshadowing then there is something that is the original shadow caster. Therefore the end result.
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How is that what I have said out of context? Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. That's what His death signified. By Him saying it is finished, means there are no more sacrifices required. But for some reason you want it to continue.
Show me scripture by which you think it should continue?
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When someone who is in a marriage dies, the marriage is over. The marriage contract doesn't just continue. It is finished. But no one has to say its finished. It's just logically understood.
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So is the view of continuation.
Probably need to further define continual.
Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
Sounds to me like this verse is still in compliance with the verse you quoted. There is still a continual sacrifice for us to this very day and beyond. (If you believe that the death of the Son of God was the ultimate sacrifice.)
Why is it necessary to resume sacrificing animals that never did anything for sin in the first place?I mean. logically think about it, how is 7 billion people going to sacrifice animals on a daily bases? Are you going to keep animals to do this? Are you going to buy them? Is the sacrifice going to be ceremonial?
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In the frame we are talking, that sounds legalistic to me. What if obedience is having faith that the Son of God has finished the sacrifices for you and there is nothing more you are to do accept have faith. That's the obedience I see.
How does this conversation edify the OP? IMO this is just a continuation of the same old TO debate . . . . Which has already been asked to be moved to its own thread with links if necessary.
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Snowball effect. However any discussion about theonomy does open up attempts to better understand the purpose of the sacrificial laws both in the past and in the future. Theonomy is technically Torah based. But I do agree that the discussion veered from the polygamy aspects of the OP. I guess @SerenaJoy82 can say whether it's beneficial or not.
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I think this is directly related to the original post, as the proposition is that the ceremonial laws (sacrifices) are done away with but the laws relating to personal conduct remain. Discussing whether the sacrifices are done away with or not is precisely on topic.
It's also an area of interesting disagreement among many of us here. Many of us believe that the Mosaic law remains valid at least in part - when it comes to interpersonal issues we all draw from it when finding what is right. The sacrifices are however a major question mark.
Some have stated here before that sacrifices will resume because although all sin has been forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ, not all sacrifices were for the purpose of forgiveness of sins. There were many other sacrifices, and it is hypothesised by many that these will be reinstated at the second coming or at some other future date. For the same reason, many of us have a lamb at passover (we have done so ourselves in the past, though not recently) - this is seen as a type of sacrifice that continues as it has not been completed. For one example, when responding to a similar discussion, @PeteR pointed out:
While in another discussion, @Nikud has pointed out that Yeshua is both the final sin offering, and the passover lamb. In other words, His sacrifice was multiple things at the same time, and may have fulfilled more than just the sin offerings, possibly all sacrifices (this is my reasoning from that point, I do not claim that this is @Nikud's precise view).
Which takes us to:
It's also an area of interesting disagreement among many of us here. Many of us believe that the Mosaic law remains valid at least in part - when it comes to interpersonal issues we all draw from it when finding what is right. The sacrifices are however a major question mark.
Some have stated here before that sacrifices will resume because although all sin has been forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ, not all sacrifices were for the purpose of forgiveness of sins. There were many other sacrifices, and it is hypothesised by many that these will be reinstated at the second coming or at some other future date. For the same reason, many of us have a lamb at passover (we have done so ourselves in the past, though not recently) - this is seen as a type of sacrifice that continues as it has not been completed. For one example, when responding to a similar discussion, @PeteR pointed out:
Implying that Christ's sacrifice has negated the need for sin offerings, but not the instruction to continue to make other sacrifices. I know this distinction has been drawn by others also, but I cannot recall where.
While in another discussion, @Nikud has pointed out that Yeshua is both the final sin offering, and the passover lamb. In other words, His sacrifice was multiple things at the same time, and may have fulfilled more than just the sin offerings, possibly all sacrifices (this is my reasoning from that point, I do not claim that this is @Nikud's precise view).
Which takes us to:
Hebrews 10:8 does not refer to sin offerings alone, but to all sacrifices (or at least many more offerings than sin offerings). So when 10:10 states "once for all", it is not just referring back to sin offerings, as the topic is not sin offerings. The topic is all sacrifices, and the plain meaning appears to be that all sacrifices are fulfilled in Christ, once for all.
That’s a good point @FollowingHim
Also if we read on it says:
Hebrews 10:17-18
“[17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”
There is no more offering for sin.
Hebrews 9:9-10 KJV
“[9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [10] Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”
Hebrews is clear that the ceremonial aspects were only for a time, “until the time of reformation”
We can parse verses all day long and go back and forth, but parsing verses only goes so far. If a person really wants to know what the writer of Hebrews is saying, sit down and read Hebrews through completely about five times, and it will become very clear. One has to follow the reasoning to get what he’s saying.
Also if we read on it says:
Hebrews 10:17-18
“[17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”
There is no more offering for sin.
Hebrews 9:9-10 KJV
“[9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [10] Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”
Hebrews is clear that the ceremonial aspects were only for a time, “until the time of reformation”
We can parse verses all day long and go back and forth, but parsing verses only goes so far. If a person really wants to know what the writer of Hebrews is saying, sit down and read Hebrews through completely about five times, and it will become very clear. One has to follow the reasoning to get what he’s saying.
I was not going to add this earlier as it seemed to me to be adding to the discussion veering from Theonomists.
I’ve personally never been able to completely reconcile Jeremiah 7:21-23 which is at least 600 years pre crucifixion.
Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices, but this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
As to the Passover being finished, Daniel 9:27 speaks of one who would cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Many so called prophets today have totally ignored the primary fulfillment of this prophecy during the First Century in order to apply it to Eschatology and the AC. The enormous problem with this application is that the future AC would have to be paralleled with Titus for a First Century fulfillment. It does not take very much investigation to realize that nothing about this verse was fulfilled even remotely in Titus.
And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Of all the feast days I have studied, the Passover (and the weeks related feasts) are the only ones that I unreservedly cannot observe in their pre Crucifixion format.
I’ve personally never been able to completely reconcile Jeremiah 7:21-23 which is at least 600 years pre crucifixion.
Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices, but this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
As to the Passover being finished, Daniel 9:27 speaks of one who would cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Many so called prophets today have totally ignored the primary fulfillment of this prophecy during the First Century in order to apply it to Eschatology and the AC. The enormous problem with this application is that the future AC would have to be paralleled with Titus for a First Century fulfillment. It does not take very much investigation to realize that nothing about this verse was fulfilled even remotely in Titus.
- No covenant initiated and certainly not fulfilled between Israel and Titus or his father Vespasian.
- The Sacrifice and Oblation is specifically a Passover reference. The result of Titus destroying the Temple was that all sacrifices done there were no more, not just the Passover. Furthermore, the timing of the destruction had nothing connecting it to the Passover in the slightest. It was done on the 9th of Ave, roughly 5 months out of sync.
- Titus or any other man was and still is powerless to universally cause to cease a sacrifice that could be done thru the head of household.
- Because of the overspreading of abominations, Jerusalem would be desolate until consummation (which I understand to be Armageddon Is 28:22, Jer 4:26, 27, Jer 30:11, Ezekiel 13:13 and others). Titus had no ability to make Jerusalem desolate until Armageddon as no other human man could do either.
- All covenants initiated previous to his death were confirmed/fulfilled with his death when He is cut off for the people.
- His death happens in the midst of the specific week identified with Passover or the Sacrifice and Oblation, fulfilling a multitude of prophecies in identical form and fashion to the first four feast days in full and the last 4 feast days in type as well as countless other prophecies throughout Scripture, both canonical and extra canonical.
- Jesus, fulfilling the true Passover sacrifice, once and for all, is the only one capable of causing the Sacrifice and Oblation to cease,
- He is also the only one possibly capable of causing Jerusalem to be destroyed, city and sanctuary, until consummation, the only one possibly capable of declaring an overspreading of abominations as a charge resulting in judgement/sentence of this magnitude.
- The overspreading of abominations was witnessed for years between the crucifixion and destruction with multiple miracles/anomalies recorded indicating sacrifices were unacceptable.
And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Of all the feast days I have studied, the Passover (and the weeks related feasts) are the only ones that I unreservedly cannot observe in their pre Crucifixion format.
Fascinating viewpoint on Daniel 9:27 @Verifyveritas76, thanks, completely counter to everything I've read before. Something to ponder.
I also find Jeremiah 7:21-23 difficult. He did instruct them in burnt offerings and sacrifices. Of course, he didn't do this on the precise day they left Egypt, but later, after the issuing of the ten commandments and as part of the far more detailed Mosaic law. So there is a line of investigation to follow. But it is difficult to fully understand.
I also find Jeremiah 7:21-23 difficult. He did instruct them in burnt offerings and sacrifices. Of course, he didn't do this on the precise day they left Egypt, but later, after the issuing of the ten commandments and as part of the far more detailed Mosaic law. So there is a line of investigation to follow. But it is difficult to fully understand.
Serena, you are on the right track. The practice of polygamy is entirely consistent with Hebrew Roots / Torah Keeping / Theonomy (as you've described it). What is going on is your friends / acquaintances are not being consistent in their application of their theology but are, like most Christians, following their cultural predispositions and justifying them with religious language.
Now this can go two ways. In some cases, those people may be able to see the disconnect and change their view on polygamy. This will be especially true of people who studied their way into those belief systems, with new believers, with those who have a heart for God.
However, it is more common in the American church for theological systems to be skin deep. They may have once started as a system for understanding truth. But usually they become ossified. They fix the truth's they have found and resist any further changes born of the philosophy, consistent though they may be with their distinctive theological identities. In this way, the theological explanations are little more than myth-making to justify a unique identity; an identity which would be shaken should one attempt to change it; especially in a fundamental way such as the nature of marriage.
Excellent discussion. Thanks @rockfox for bringing it back, but @SerenaJoy82 theonomy does beg the same question any other touch upon moral or civil law does: If Yeshua did not abolish the Torah, then doesn't it all still stand?
So, the same conundrum that faces your friend who is Hebrew roots but rejects poly, a required part of the Law if levirate arises, faces you who are a theonomist but reject ceremonial law.
Remember, there is much ceremonial that does not include sacrifice...
My position on sacrifice is a 'wait and see' attitude with the expectation that it will return. Ezekiel 43 & 44 clearly picture something future and Isaiah 2:1-5 and Mal. 4:25( I think) indicate the Messiah will teach Torah and rule with Torah. If so, can He skip parts and still be righteous?
The key with your friend is to ask questions. Will the Messiah teach Torah? Does that mean levirate marriage will be enforced? How about if a man has a wife and then starts having sex with a single girlfriend? How will the Messiah handle that? (This should force a defining of marriage, adultery, etc) Will the Messiah have them stoned or will He cause them to marry? (90% of the regulars are grating their teeth at my use of 'marriage' as many believe 'sex is marriage' though a few would add a ketubah...)
The point, @SerenaJoy82 is to make your friend apply what she already believes to probable situations that walk her into recognizing the blind spots she currently has.
Shalom.
So, the same conundrum that faces your friend who is Hebrew roots but rejects poly, a required part of the Law if levirate arises, faces you who are a theonomist but reject ceremonial law.
Remember, there is much ceremonial that does not include sacrifice...
My position on sacrifice is a 'wait and see' attitude with the expectation that it will return. Ezekiel 43 & 44 clearly picture something future and Isaiah 2:1-5 and Mal. 4:25( I think) indicate the Messiah will teach Torah and rule with Torah. If so, can He skip parts and still be righteous?
The key with your friend is to ask questions. Will the Messiah teach Torah? Does that mean levirate marriage will be enforced? How about if a man has a wife and then starts having sex with a single girlfriend? How will the Messiah handle that? (This should force a defining of marriage, adultery, etc) Will the Messiah have them stoned or will He cause them to marry? (90% of the regulars are grating their teeth at my use of 'marriage' as many believe 'sex is marriage' though a few would add a ketubah...)
The point, @SerenaJoy82 is to make your friend apply what she already believes to probable situations that walk her into recognizing the blind spots she currently has.
Shalom.
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I agree with the wait and see approach, but we do need to make sure we understand that the forementioned verses could be referencing the heavenly Jerusalem and not the earthly one, which is eventually destroyed according to Jerimiah. And I also agree that Christ will rule FROM the foundation of the Law whereby all His rulings will be based on it, but I personally don't think He is actually going to TEACH the Law. By that time we will have them written on our hearts and we will understand His rulings from the New Jerusalem.