A question regarding scripture, Located within the Gospel of Mark.

[rockfox]

Catholics canonized these extra-biblical books (just as they canonized their own traditions)

Actually, the Catholic cannon is smaller than several Orthodox ones. There is a lot of issues to be laid at the feet of Catholics, but adding uninspired books to scripture isn't one of them.

The Bible can be translated perfectly because that is the doctrine of preservation: if we cannot authoritatively translate some word in the Bible, then God has not preserved it, and part is lost

Did scripture teach you that doctrine? It's just that, a human construct. It's not lost, we still have the manuscripts passed down. Translation isn't a perfect science, esp. over the passage of time. Especially since the end language is a moving target. If any language had a shot at getting a perfect translation it was English, with our multitude of attempts and abundance of resources and motive. Haven't seen one yet that even came close to accomplishing it.

But it doesn't matter because we have enough info to have confidence in the message and the doctrines they teach. If you work with a reasonably good translation you have to get a ways down the road to faith before translation differences have a measurable impact on decisions.

 

[Patrick Lauser]

There is a lot of issues to be laid at the feet of Catholics, but adding uninspired books to scripture isn't one of them.

"Canonize" probably wasn't the right word then: I was mainly thinking of their putting their tradition and Pope on the same level as Scripture.

Some Scriptures on preservation:
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matthew 15:8
"And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed," - II Peter 1:18,19
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" - II Timothy 3:16
Every time it is said, "It is written," cannot bear the authority of the Word of God if the written Word is in doubt.

The fact is that if a single word of Scripture was lost, in doubt, or untranslatable, that means that the whole of Scripture is unpreserved of God, and is merely the authority of man telling us what God may have said. It can then be no longer treated as the Word of God. But God has provided us with more than enough proof for every word. This doesn't mean that people don't make their own, edited versions of Scripture though.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The fact is that if a single word of Scripture was lost, in doubt, or untranslatable, that means that the whole of Scripture is unpreserved of God,

Definitely don’t agree with you there. The little books of Daniel and John that they were told to eat and hide would then cause the whole of Scripture to be unpreserved of God. Not to mention the numerous books of Scripture that are referenced by Scripture, and yet we have no copy of them

 

[Pacman]

The fact is that if a single word of Scripture was lost, in doubt, or untranslatable, that means that the whole of Scripture is unpreserved of God

I’m curious where God says he will preserve scripture in the form of a translation? To my knowledge whether or not it’s translatable has no baring on preservation...

 

[yoderfamily]

The fact is that if a single word of Scripture was lost, in doubt, or untranslatable, that means that the whole of Scripture is unpreserved of God, and is merely the authority of man telling us what God may have said. It can then be no longer treated as the Word of God. But God has provided us with more than enough proof for every word. This doesn't mean that people don't make their own, edited versions of Scripture though.

Considering how Jesus (who is eternal)said he is the Word, Therefore Believers will always have a living Scripture. The written words can always be lost as they are material and will burn up with fervent heat at Jesus Second coming. The Living Word will never die again.

I think it's awesome how often the Father has chosen to preserve a copy of the written word thru times of wild crisis's. You hear of fires where Bible's were unburnt yet all else was lost etc.

 

[The Revolting Man]

"Canonize" probably wasn't the right word then: I was mainly thinking of their putting their tradition and Pope on the same level as Scripture.

Some Scriptures on preservation:
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matthew 15:8
"And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed," - II Peter 1:18,19
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" - II Timothy 3:16
Every time it is said, "It is written," cannot bear the authority of the Word of God if the written Word is in doubt.

The fact is that if a single word of Scripture was lost, in doubt, or untranslatable, that means that the whole of Scripture is unpreserved of God, and is merely the authority of man telling us what God may have said. It can then be no longer treated as the Word of God. But God has provided us with more than enough proof for every word. This doesn't mean that people don't make their own, edited versions of Scripture though.

I get what you're saying. God preserved what He determined was universally applicable throughout all believers. We don't have to question it and we don't have to look for the missing pieces.

 

[Patrick Lauser]

The little books of Daniel and John that they were told to eat and hide would then cause the whole of Scripture to be unpreserved of God. Not to mention the numerous books of Scripture that are referenced by Scripture, and yet we have no copy of them

That was what I was saying about which books were part of Scripture: it is clear that God spoke to many people, but that there are words set apart by the prophets which are the Scriptures. I think there isn't anyone who believes that God preserves or even records every word he has ever said to anyone, and I don't think there is anyone who believes the term Scripture refers to every word God has said to anyone, but to a specific group of his messages. This group could probably be distinguished as God's word to mankind, rather than his word meant only for a specific person or persons. Also the Scriptures would be distinguished by being scripture: that is, by being the written records that God had recorded for future readers. It is these that are referred to as the Scriptures, and which are considered the words of God though copied and translated.

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." - Romans 3:1-2
Unless one believes that God has never spoken to anyone other than the Jews, it is apparent that "the oracles of God" refer to a specific body which is Scripture.

As to translation, in the Scripture Paul says (in Greek, to Romans) what God said to him, specifying that God had said it in the Hebrew tongue. Thus the original Scripture is in this place already a translation of God's direct word.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

but that there are words set apart by the prophets which are the Scriptures.

My point of clarification would be that the prophets didn’t set their own words apart. Men hundreds of years after the fact created canons. Canons that do not contain books that are listed by scripture as source documents and Scripture in the Old Testament.

Then when you get to the New Testament, you have at least Paul’s letter to the Church at Laodecia and a third letter to the Corinthians that are not included.

There are also many quotes from the apostles that are now considered scripture because they quoted them, but the documents they quoted from are either not included in the canon or are no longer available.

 

[andrew]

Edit: I was replying to Patrick. Joe cut in line.

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Seems to me you've gone circular.

We're still left with various bodies of Christian leaders trying to make decisions about which manuscripts are authoritative and which ones aren't, and those bodies don't all agree on which 'books' to include or which manuscripts (or sets of manuscripts) are the most reliable indication of what those 'books' actually said when originally written. Even then, they don't all agree on what the best approach to translation into a different language is, even if you stipulate which manuscripts are authoritative.

At some level of realism, we have to acknowledge that we are relying on (trusting, believing in, having faith in) our particular brand of dead guys to have gotten it right. You can call that 'preservation', but at the practical level that's 'hooray for our side', and at the philosophical level, that is faith in dogma, or faith in your faith.

The Holy Spirit will speak to us in many ways, including through the sacred writings that teach us how he spoke to others a long time ago. Our faith is in the words of Jesus, who said it is better that He go so that people would write about Him and we'd have a reference book to study. No wait—He said it was better that He go so that He could send us the Holy Spirit to comfort us and guide us into all truth. Have faith in Jesus and the Holy Spirit; the book is useful for what it's useful for, but there's a limit.

The written record of Jesus's earthly ministry includes His speaking these words: "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me, but you are not willing to come to Me that you might have life."

Let's not be those guys....

 

[Patrick Lauser]

Of course the point of saying "they testify of me" to the Pharisees was that if they truly acknowledged the Scripture as the Word of God then they would believe in Christ.

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" - John 5:46-47

I think people get too familiar with the idea of referring to a written document as "the Word of God", and to not realize the significance of this. Also the significance that the Scripture is called the Word of God in copied form, with the original copy no longer in existence.

"Thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." - Psalm 138:2
"My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved;" - Psalm 119:48

There is disagreement on every issue, including salvation, and whether God exists, but this does not mean that we cannot know the truth without doubt. We can know what is Scripture and that it is flawless not simply by "so and so said so" (which of course would not be a sound reason). By God's intervention, it is not a matter of "I found a text and you found a different one", rather, of the 5,262 ancient Greek manuscripts from the Greek Scriptures 99% are in agreement, and the 1% that don't agree are also not in agreement with each other. This from Floyd Nolen Jones, Which Version is the Bible: he well defends the pure text which the KJV used, and the doctrine of preservation (the reason I reject the KJV is that they did not accept these doctrines fully).

 

[Nikud]

I know a "Aunt" who has an old Rromani bible from the 1200s. It has the book of Enoch, The Gospel of Thomas (different from the gnostic Gospel), and the Book of wisdom of the little Egyptians (different from the pagan book of the same name) which has the parables of the Rromani people from when we fled slavery in the Land of Beng walked across a body of water to a mountain, split of from our cousins there, to the time a BaroRom of a foreign people half dead stumbled in to one of our camps after following a star for years and revealed that The great conqueror that the Dukars (Prophets) told us would come save us and conquer the world and create a kingdom we had been waiting for was born to when the Conquerors servant Thomas arrived to teach us about the great conqueror and predestined service to Him our responsibilities and how we were to obey the Laws of Duvvell (The unknown name). Just because there in that Bible doesn't make them cannon, I don't treat them as such. Just because there not in your Bible doesn't mean there's not instruction to me and my people who lived experience and wrote them. We persevered our oral tradition until it was finally written strictly especially the words of the Great conquerors servant Thomas.

 

[rockfox]

I know a "Aunt" who has an old Rromani bible from the 1200s. It has the book of Enoch, The Gospel of Thomas (different from the gnostic Gospel), and the Book of wisdom of the little Egyptians (different from the pagan book of the same name) which has the parables of the Rromani people from when we fled slavery in the Land of Beng walked across a body of water to a mountain, split of from our cousins there, to the time a BaroRom of a foreign people half dead stumbled in to one of our camps after following a star for years and revealed that The great conqueror that the Dukars (Prophets) told us would come save us and conquer the world and create a kingdom we had been waiting for was born to when the Conquerors servant Thomas arrived to teach us about the great conqueror and predestined service to Him our responsibilities and how we were to obey the Laws of Duvvell (The unknown name). Just because there in that Bible doesn't make them cannon, I don't treat them as such. Just because there not in your Bible doesn't mean there's not instruction to me and my people who lived experience and wrote them. We persevered our oral tradition until it was finally written strictly especially the words of the Great conquerors servant Thomas.

Fascinating. I'd love to hear more about all that.

 

[Nikud]

Fascinating. I'd love to hear more about all that.

Ill shoot you a pm about it. Ill trying to get her to let me translate it to English and make copies at least the The Gospel of Thomas and the Book of wisdom of the little Egyptians. I was thinking about making a web page and posting It in its entirety.

 

[rockfox]

Ill shoot you a pm about it. Ill trying to get her to let me translate it to English and make copies at least the The Gospel of Thomas and the Book of wisdom of the little Egyptians. I was thinking about making a web page and posting It in its entirety.

Thanks!

I could find no reference online to such a Thomas. I found one (partial?) quote from a wisdom of the little Egyptians credited to the Roma and printed in the 19th century.

From the conventional history of the Romani that Bible would predate your arrival in Europe. The conventional history makes it sound like ya'll just picked up Christianity when you got there; this would indicate not.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I know a "Aunt" who has an old Rromani bible from the 1200s. It has the book of Enoch, The Gospel of Thomas (different from the gnostic Gospel), and the Book of wisdom of the little Egyptians (different from the pagan book of the same name) which has the parables of the Rromani people from when we fled slavery in the Land of Beng walked across a body of water to a mountain, split of from our cousins there, to the time a BaroRom of a foreign people half dead stumbled in to one of our camps after following a star for years and revealed that The great conqueror that the Dukars (Prophets) told us would come save us and conquer the world and create a kingdom we had been waiting for was born to when the Conquerors servant Thomas arrived to teach us about the great conqueror and predestined service to Him our responsibilities and how we were to obey the Laws of Duvvell (The unknown name). Just because there in that Bible doesn't make them cannon, I don't treat them as such. Just because there not in your Bible doesn't mean there's not instruction to me and my people who lived experience and wrote them. We persevered our oral tradition until it was finally written strictly especially the words of the Great conquerors servant Thomas.

I’d love to get my hands on a copy of that

 

[Nikud]

Thanks!

I could find no reference online to such a Thomas. I found one (partial?) quote from a wisdom of the little Egyptians credited to the Roma and printed in the 19th century.

From the conventional history of the Romani that Bible would predate your arrival in Europe. The conventional history makes it sound like ya'll just picked up Christianity when you got there; this would indicate not.

There's a lot of "Experts" who pass on stories about the Romani by people who have been shinned as fact. There are those Romani who went native and worshiped local pagan gods. We call them Amriya it means cursed or traitor depending on how its used. They are outcast from us. They traditional made a living by Faakei (dishonest work) shinning folks and giving us a bad name. for the most part don't trust books about Romani culture that's not written by Romani. Even then if there Amriya you cant trust what they write because its only half truths.

 

[rockfox]

There's a lot of "Experts" who pass on stories about the Romani by people who have been shinned as fact. There are those Romani who went native and worshiped local pagan gods. We call them Amriya it means cursed or traitor depending on how its used. They are outcast from us. They traditional made a living by Faakei (dishonest work) shinning folks and giving us a bad name. for the most part don't trust books about Romani culture that's not written by Romani. Even then if there Amriya you cant trust what they write because its only half truths.

What is your oral tradition as to how you came to be Christians? Do you trace it back to the Apostle Thomas in India? Or do you trace your origin to Jews?

I know little of the Romani outside of what wikipedia or the like will say.

 

[Nikud]

What is your oral tradition as to how you came to be Christians? Do you trace it back to the Apostle Thomas in India? Or do you trace your origin to Jews?

I know little of the Romani outside of what wikipedia or the like will say.

Romani are kind of parallel or maybe a pre wilderness split from the Jews. Quick over view.
In the land of Beng (the evil one) we were slaves for 400 years along side our parla (brothers/cousins/friends). When a Dukar (Prophet) who was an exiled BaroRom (grandfather/important man) of the people who ruled the land Beng and our parla returned with the knowledge of the name of Duvvell (He who is known by a the unknown name). He broke the heart of the BaroRom of the Land of Beng through the will of Duvvell and His 10 tribulations. The Dukar lead us out of bondage. He promised a kingdom Ruled by Duvvell. We followed him and walked across a the word can mean stream, river, living water, not stagnet water to a mountain. There the Dukar went up the mountain and our parla committed evil against Duvvel. We left them and wandered in the wilderness. Duvvell spoke to our people and dived them amonst twelve Dukars and set them to different task. He then gave us a Law for us to follow. Almost identical to Torah some difference. He also gave Dukarings to the young men confirming what the Dukars were saying came from Him. He also laid a curse on us for abandoning our parla. We would live as wanders until the Great Conqueror came and created the Kingdom that would be our home. We would forever be outsiders mistrusted and persecuted by even those who served Duvell and the great conqueror until He is pleased with our dedication to Him and he brings us to the Kingdom. We wandered and ended up in India. Outsiders treated as below the untouchables. The BaroRom or Wiseman tells us the great conqueror has been Born. we gather together and wait because our curse is about to be lifted. Then The great Conquerors servant Thomas (the Apostle Thomas) Teaches us and says until the all world knows who the great conqueror is He will not return and conqueror the world and give us our place in the Kingdom. We stop Buuti (labor to survive) and start Buchee (labor for the Kingdom) Wandering the world to spread the News that the great conqueror is returning. We head east for a few hundred years then returned to India traveling around for a few more hundred years. Unfruitful as outsiders. We then went west and ended up as slave in turkey for another 600 years. It was Prince Vlad Tepes of Walachia that freed us this time. We stayed in eastern Europe for about a century until we headed to Rome Thinking were Romani that has to be where the Kingdom meant for us is. The Pope didn't take to well to us and banned us from every city in Christendom and declared it ok for any who came across us on the to rob and murder us. Thus the Romani saying I would rather starve like a stray dog in the wilderness than live as one of the Baptised (Cathloic)