1 corinthians 9:19-23

[JudahYAHites]

The problem, brother, as I’m sure you are aware, is that our most obnoxious opponents here simply do not believe anything that Paul says in this passage – they believe a false gospel! They deny that Christ’s Apostles are “ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (v. 6). They blatantly reject that the old covenant is “the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones” (v. 7), “the ministry of condemnation” (v. 9), and that it has been forever replaced by the new covenant, “the ministry of righteousness” (v. 9). They are, quite simply, false teachers. “And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works” (2 Cor. 11:14-15). Apart from God granting them genuine repentance and faith (2 Tim. 2:25-26), and I hope and pray that He will, their end will indeed be “according to their works.”

Be careful...

For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. — Luke 6:43-45 KJV

My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body. — James 3:1-2 KJV

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? — James 4:11-12 KJV

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. — Matthew 12:36-37 KJV

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. — Ephesians 4:1-6 KJV

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. — John 8:31-32 KJV

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. — 1 John 2:3-6 KJV

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. — Ephesians 4:29-32 KJV

Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil. — 1 Peter 3:8-12 KJV

Be careful, have respect, your words expose you.

You do not know who you are talking too or about. You do not have a clue about the work of God on or in any man's life on this platform especially conversing over a few text messages.

If you are indeed in MessiYAH do not be like the world. It takes more than a few pixel exchanges to know who you are conversing with. If you do not respect the person respect the grace of God

Shalom Love and Blessings in MessiYAH

 

[The Revolting Man]

The problem, brother, as I’m sure you are aware, is that our most obnoxious opponents here simply do not believe anything that Paul says in this passage – they believe a false gospel! They deny that Christ’s Apostles are “ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (v. 6). They blatantly reject that the old covenant is “the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones” (v. 7), “the ministry of condemnation” (v. 9), and that it has been forever replaced by the new covenant, “the ministry of righteousness” (v. 9). They are, quite simply, false teachers. “And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works” (2 Cor. 11:14-15). Apart from God granting them genuine repentance and faith (2 Tim. 2:25-26), and I hope and pray that He will, their end will indeed be “according to their works.”

Yikes. That’s a bit harsh.

 

[Mark C]

The problem, brother, as I’m sure you are aware, is that our most obnoxious opponents here simply do not believe anything that Paul says in this passage...

Wrong. We believe His Master.

And guess Who he believed?

So what does that tell you?

OK - more realistically, what does that tell anyone ELSE reading with "eyes to see"?


And I guess it also demonstrates why the history of the Whore Church is so blood-soaked. And arguably, why "lawlessness abounds" - just as He warned.

 

[Mark C]

The problem, brother, as I’m sure you are aware, is that our most obnoxious opponents here simply do not believe anything that Paul says in this passage – they believe a false gospel!

After re-reading that eloquent condemnation of those of us who dare to believe the Words of the Written Messiah over that of His 'ministers of the New Covenant,' which so obviously replaced anything and everything "Olde" -
- I am truly chastened. How dare I ever even suggest that any "words in Red" should trump Official Paulianity Doctrine? I don' wanna go to hell, after all.

But I find it leaves me with one question:

Since sunday and pork and Monogamy have so clearly replaced His Sabbaths, appointed moedim, and archaic, ceremonial "dietary" bondage - and foreskins are a Mark of Obedience - why, oh why, does ANYBODY HERE who buys that schtick believe for one second that the same Whore New Covenant Church that did away with ALL of that, think they don't have the same "God-Ordained Right" -
'cause Paul SAID so - to declare 'bigamy' to be a Crime Against Jesus, jes like they did 'judaizing'?

If "polygyny" isn't Bondage to an Olde, Done-Away-With covenant, then - fer cryin' out loud - what IS?

And, please, don't give me any tripe about "heatou" and "mia" and other Greek-isms, 'cause Paul is Translated into ENGLISH. And He (the Word of God, remember) says, "husband of ONE wife." And "let every woman have her OWN husband," and "his OWN wife.' We do NOT question Translations in the Church of Paul-Only, remember!

Or do some still pick and choose?

 

[The Revolting Man]

We’re straying past the bounds of profitability. Our core mission here is to support a biblical view of “marriage”.

 

[rgmann]

Yikes. That’s a bit harsh.

No harsher than this pertinent warning from the Apostle Paul.

“I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:6-9)

Those of you who are insisting that believers in Christ are obligated to observe the ceremonial commandments of the “old covenant” (e.g., dietary regulations, sabbath restrictions, and other holy day feasts) and that Christ has not freed us from bondage to the law – “the ministry of death” (2 Cor. 3:7) and “ministry of condemnation” (2 Corinthians 3:9) – by inaugurating “the new covenant [Gk: kainos diatheke] in My blood” (Luke 22:20), are perverting the gospel of Christ and preaching a false gospel! You need to repent. The correct view of biblical marriage is worthless if it leads one to embrace a degenerate and deadly false gospel. There’s no other alternative. You either enter the new covenant by genuine faith in Christ, or you remain under the bondage of the old covenant, which only ends in death and eternal condemnation. There’s no middle ground or compromise between the two!

“Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants [i.e., the ‘old covenant’ of Sinai, and the ‘new covenant’ of grace in Christ]: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all… Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? ‘Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.’ So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.” (Galatians 4:21-31)

 

[steve]

There’s no middle ground or compromise between the two!

You need to back off.
No one is compromising, there are just two different understandings.
If you are unwilling to get along peacefully, you will be escorted out.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

You need to back off.
No one is compromising, there are just two different understandings.
If you are unwilling to get along peacefully, you will be escorted out.

I appreciate your calls for peace, but where were you when we were called whores time and again, and accused of being lawless, and supporting homosexuality? I think everyone needs to take breather and ponder what has been said here.

 

[FollowingHim]

Up to the last few comments, this has been the most profitable thread on Torah vs Grace (to over-summarise) that we have ever had on this site. By which I mean it has been the most well-referenced and well-argued on both sides, and the most balanced (similar numbers of posts from either side), while being simultaneously relatively calm (as far as these things go).

Nobody is going to change their mind in a discussion like this. Don't expect that, so don't get upset when it doesn't happen. There are two different viewpoints with a solid wall of division between them, which will not be breached by clever argument, but only by the Holy Spirit leading individuals to cross it.

This thread is valuable because it is a very well-referenced resource for any reader whose mind is not made up already. It allows them to read the arguments of both sides and come to their own prayerful conclusion.

If you have further sound points to add that would be of benefit to such a reader, do continue to add them. But there is no profit in trying to change the minds of the participants in this discussion. Remember that this is outside the core scope of this ministry, so if it becomes unprofitable and overly divisive we'll just lock the thread. But if it remains calm and profitable then it's a great resource to build for the edification and education of God's people.

 

[FollowingHim]

I do think there is an aspect to this that has been missed, and helps to put the issues being debated in context. Some matters of the law are more important than others:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The "grace" side of this argument holds that the "moral" laws are all that remain relevant.
The "torah" side of this argument holds that all laws remain relevant.

Jesus, in this passage, preached a middle ground - some laws are "weightier" - more important, of highest priority to get right. While the others shouldn't be left undone either, but are a secondary consideration. These crucial laws are the camel, the remaining details are the gnat.

Remember too that when He divides the sheep from the goats, the matters He considers important enough to mention are NOT who kept Sabbath correctly, or who ate the right food. Rather,

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Which are the crucial laws? Those that can be summarised by "love" (righteous love of course, don't twist that statement).

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

On everything that falls clearly under these headings, we are all in broad agreement. This is what is labelled by theologians as the "moral" law - and is what Jesus called the "weightier matters".

So this entire debate is not about the camel - on that we agree. It's about the gnat.

It's certainly worth studying for our own edification, and to ensure that we clearly understand the instructions of our Master and do His will. But putting it in this context may help to reduce the level of emotion felt about the views of those on the other side of the wall.

 

[The Revolting Man]

No harsher than this pertinent warning from the Apostle Paul.

“I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:6-9)

Those of you who are insisting that believers in Christ are obligated to observe the ceremonial commandments of the “old covenant” (e.g., dietary regulations, sabbath restrictions, and other holy day feasts) and that Christ has not freed us from bondage to the law – “the ministry of death” (2 Cor. 3:7) and “ministry of condemnation” (2 Corinthians 3:9) – by inaugurating “the new covenant [Gk: kainos diatheke] in My blood” (Luke 22:20), are perverting the gospel of Christ and preaching a false gospel! You need to repent. The correct view of biblical marriage is worthless if it leads one to embrace a degenerate and deadly false gospel. There’s no other alternative. You either enter the new covenant by genuine faith in Christ, or you remain under the bondage of the old covenant, which only ends in death and eternal condemnation. There’s no middle ground or compromise between the two!

“Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants [i.e., the ‘old covenant’ of Sinai, and the ‘new covenant’ of grace in Christ]: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all… Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? ‘Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.’ So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.” (Galatians 4:21-31)

Very few people claim that anyone is obligated to keep the law. Scratch the surface and you’ll find even the most ardent of Torah keepers admit that there’s a fair amount vagueness about the timeline between salvation (which is only through grace, here we go again) and growing into a lifestyle that God finds pleasing.

Torah keepers are focused on what comes after the cross. We want to be the wise virgins waiting for the bridegroom. Pilgrim’s Progress began after the cross. It’s the journey from the cross to the completion of our earthly lives that we’re concerned with.

Most of our most vocal detractors are focused on the cross, an admirable fixation. But they blindly insist we’re substituting the Law for the cross. An eye raising claim since the portions of the law that were fulfilled at the cross can’t be performed anymore.

But tell me, what’s wrong with dietary laws? There are dietary laws for gentile believers still in Acts 15. What’s wrong with God’s commanded feasts? Christ kept them. What’s wrong with the Sabbath? It was made holy in Genesis 2:2-3, long before Sinai or even Israel.

I’m confused as to what’s made you react so violently to things that God, by your own admission, commanded. Even if you think those commands are superseded, why are you so adamant that they are now sin?

 

[The Revolting Man]

I do think there is an aspect to this that has been missed, and helps to put the issues being debated in context. Some matters of the law are more important than others:

The "grace" side of this argument holds that the "moral" laws are all that remain relevant.
The "torah" side of this argument holds that all laws remain relevant.

Jesus, in this passage, preached a middle ground - some laws are "weightier" - more important, of highest priority to get right. While the others shouldn't be left undone either, but are a secondary consideration. These crucial laws are the camel, the remaining details are the gnat.

Remember too that when He divides the sheep from the goats, the matters He considers important enough to mention are NOT who kept Sabbath correctly, or who ate the right food. Rather,

Which are the crucial laws? Those that can be summarised by "love" (righteous love of course, don't twist that statement).

On everything that falls clearly under these headings, we are all in broad agreement. This is what is labelled by theologians as the "moral" law - and is what Jesus called the "weightier matters".

So this entire debate is not about the camel - on that we agree. It's about the gnat.

It's certainly worth studying for our own edification, and to ensure that we clearly understand the instructions of our Master and do His will. But putting it in this context may help to reduce the level of emotion felt about the views of those on the other side of the wall.

The law is the weightier matter, there are not portions the law that were weightier than others.

The weighty matters of the law are being contrasted in this passage against the traditions the Pharisees were substituting for it.

 

[FollowingHim]

The weighty matters of the law are being contrasted in this passage against the traditions the Pharisees were substituting for it.

No, a tithe of crops (e.g. mint, anise, cumin) is a clear requirement of the Law - e.g. Lev 27:30 among other passages. This is not just a Pharasaical tradition, it's in the Law.
In this specific passage Jesus was accusing them of misprioritisation within the Law, not referring to substitution with their own tradition.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Very few people claim that anyone is obligated to keep the law. Scratch the surface and you’ll find even the most ardent of Torah keepers admit that there’s a fair amount vagueness about the timeline between salvation (which is only through grace, here we go again) and growing into a lifestyle that God finds pleasing.

I have to disagree with this statement. If eating pork is a transgression of the law and transgression of the law is sin,

(1 John 3:4 KJV
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.)

then christians are obligated to keep the law of Moses. There is no middle ground.

Torah keepers are focused on what comes after the cross. We want to be the wise virgins waiting for the bridegroom. Pilgrim’s Progress began after the cross. It’s the journey from the cross to the completion of our earthly lives that we’re concerned with.

I agree that the believers life should be marked by spiritual growth. However that growth should be in the grace of God and being conformed into the image of His Son. In 1 John 3:6-11 the Apostle John says,
[6] “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. [11] For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.“

Is the Apostle John talking about keeping the law of Moses or a different law? If we keep reading John tells us what commandments he is referring to in verse 23,

[22] “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.“

In 1 John the Apostle John doesn’t tell us to keep the law of Moses, he tells us to keep the commandments “believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment”.

Most of our most vocal detractors are focused on the cross, an admirable fixation. But they blindly insist we’re substituting the Law for the cross. An eye raising claim since the portions of the law that were fulfilled at the cross can’t be performed anymore.

All of the law was fulfilled. If any part of the law changes, that means that all is fulfilled, according to Matthew 5:18 KJV
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If the priesthood has changed that is far more than a jot or tittle, that’s a huge change, therefore we must conclude that Christ fulfilled it all, which is what He said He came to do.

[17] “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”

But tell me, what’s wrong with dietary laws? There are dietary laws for gentile believers still in Acts 15. What’s wrong with God’s commanded feasts? Christ kept them. What’s wrong with the Sabbath? It was made holy in Genesis 2:2-3, long before Sinai or even Israel.

Of a christian wants to keep the dietary laws, or a sabbath, or a feast, they have freedom in Christ to do so. Which is why I don’t bother folks on here when they talk about keeping feasts and stuff. I say enjoy them! I have enjoyed a Passover meal or two with messianic Jewish friends, myself. If you enjoy doing so, do it unto the Lord, no judgement here as long as you aren’t doing so to be more righteous. We can’t be any more righteous than Christ has already made us by His Blood.

Bear in mind that Jesus also celebrated man made feasts. What feast was he attending at the temple when He walked in Solomon’s porch? John 10:22-23 KJV
[22] And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. [23] And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

Isn’t that Hanukkah?

There is no command in Genesis for anyone to be a sabbath keeper. It simply says that God rested on the seventh day and made it holy or set apart. It was first commanded as a day of rest in the law of Moses. It is also a commandment in the new covenant in a different way that the command in Torah was a type and shadow of. Believing on or putting our trust in Christ’s finished work for our righteousness and ceasing from our own works to attain righteousness, is the Sabbath rest of the new covenant.

In Hebrews 4:3 we read, “For we who have believed enter that rest...”


8 “For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.“

Our Shabbat in the new covenant is continual, because Christ Jesus is our rest.

The law is the weightier matter, there are not portions the law that were weightier than others.

The weighty matters of the law are being contrasted in this passage against the traditions the Pharisees were substituting for it.

Matthew 23:23 KJV
[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Isn’t tithing part of the law?

 

[FollowingHim]

Very few people claim that anyone is obligated to keep the law. Scratch the surface and you’ll find even the most ardent of Torah keepers admit that there’s a fair amount vagueness about the timeline between salvation (which is only through grace, here we go again) and growing into a lifestyle that God finds pleasing.

I have to disagree with this statement. If eating pork is a transgression of the law and transgression of the law is sin,

(1 John 3:4 KJV
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.)

then christians are obligated to keep the law of Moses. There is no middle ground.

I think you misunderstood @The Revolting Man, @Asforme&myhouse. As I understand him, he is simply pointing out that we all come to Christ imperfect, being justified by faith but still struggling with sin. We then undergo a process of sanctification, whereby we grow to be more Christ-like in our actions. Salvation is by grace through faith alone - but the saved person may still be doing things God disapproves of either because they are knowingly struggling to change, or because they simply don't know that they are sinning as they haven't looked at that area of their life in the light of scripture yet. E.g., if eating pork is sinful, the man who comes to Christ and keeps enjoying bacon for breakfast because he simply hasn't figured this out yet is still saved, just not fully sanctified.

I think this is a fairly universal understanding of salvation among most Christians. The only thing we differ on is exactly which things are sinful - which things should be expected to change during that process of sanctification. But the basic principle of justification vs sanctification that @The Revolting Man is espousing is fairly universal.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I think you misunderstood @The Revolting Man, @Asforme&myhouse. As I understand him, he is simply pointing out that we all come to Christ imperfect, being justified by faith but still struggling with sin. We then undergo a process of sanctification, whereby we grow to be more Christ-like in our actions. Salvation is by grace through faith alone - but the saved person may still be doing things God disapproves of either because they are knowingly struggling to change, or because they simply don't know that they are sinning as they haven't looked at that area of their life in the light of scripture yet. E.g., if eating pork is sinful, the man who comes to Christ and keeps enjoying bacon for breakfast because he simply hasn't figured this out yet is still saved, just not fully sanctified.

I think this is a fairly universal understanding of salvation among most Christians. The only thing we differ on is exactly which things are sinful - which things should be expected to change during that process of sanctification. But the basic principle of justification vs sanctification that @The Revolting Man is espousing is fairly universal.

Sanctification in a believers life is a process, I agree. Also, I am not accusing TRM of claiming that salvation is by works of the law. What I am saying is that keeping the law of Moses is not part of sanctification for a follower of Christ Jesus. TRM said that very few people claim that anyone is obligated to keep the law. What I am saying is they are indeed obligated, if eating pork is sin, because sin is transgression of the law, then a person who has been saved by grace through faith should repent and stop eating it (if we are still under the law of Moses). Then I continued further in my post explaining why the law of Moses is fulfilled and is not the law that Christ followers are instructed to obey in the new covenant.

 

[rgmann]

No one is compromising, there are just two different understandings.

I stand by what I've said:

“Those of you who are insisting that believers in Christ are obligated to observe the ceremonial commandments of the “old covenant” (e.g., dietary regulations, sabbath restrictions, and other holy day feasts) and that Christ has not freed us from bondage to the law – “the ministry of death” (2 Cor. 3:7) and “ministry of condemnation” (2 Corinthians 3:9) – by inaugurating “the new covenant [Gk: kainos diatheke] in My blood” (Luke 22:20), are perverting the gospel of Christ and preaching a false gospel!”

“You either enter the new covenant by genuine faith in Christ, or you remain under the bondage of the old covenant, which only ends in death and eternal condemnation.”

There’s no middle ground or compromise between these two “understandings” of the gospel. One is the true gospel. The other is a perversion of the true gospel – a false gospel. These are not peripheral issues that we can “peacefully” agree to disagree over. They cut right through the heart of the gospel. If I’m “escorted out” for speaking the truth in love, so be it.

 

[HomesteadWife]

Since this a lengthy discussion already I'm not going to be replying to anyone in particular, but adding some thoughts and ideas into it.

For those who say that the moral law is the only one has any weight after Yeshua's death and sacrifice. How do you decide which laws are moral, vs.ceremonial and civil? Things like stealing would be moral, but they would also fall into the civil category. There are many laws/commandments which fall into multiple categories.

For those who feel called to observe the Torah laws, feasts, etc, just because there is not temple or way to observe the ceremonial laws as prescribed doesn't mean that they no longer apply. There have been many times in the biblical history where the Jewish people have lived in exile (Babylon, Assyria, Eygpt, etc) or have not had a temple to observe these laws. In these cases the desire to fulfill all of the laws of Yahweh and to do so to the best way possible under circumstances is most important. Its the heart and desire to serve Yahweh as perfectly as possible. Inability to practice does not equate to them being made void and done away with.

Will anyone outside of Yeshua ever be able to perfectly follow all of the laws and commands of Yahweh? No. Yeshua followed Torah laws and commandments.

As believers we all strive to serve Yahweh to the best of our understanding and abilities. For some that is Torah/Sabbath and for others that is Grace/Sunday. If these beliefs are firmly based in Salvation through faith in Yahweh and belief in Yeshua as the Messiah and Redeemer (Faith, not works) then we are starting out with that foundational building block in common. We are all sinners and as our understanding grows we strive to remove what we learn to be sinful from our lives.

As believers we need to build fellowship with those who do start with that shared foundational block in common. It is not good for man to be an island. Will we gravitate towards those who have similar core biblical beliefs, values, and life choices? Absolutely. Does that mean we condemn those who have good fruits in there lives but who don't share all of our beliefs? No.

There are many things I see argued on here. The question I ponder in my own life and relationships comes down to: What biblically is salvifically necessary as a belief? What are the core things which are necessary for belief to be saved? After that, yes, there will be better and more biblical ways to live. There will be sinful things and relationships that need to be rooted out. If a biblical belief you have differs from another's understanding, is that item salvific or one which some grace may be given in when it comes to interpretation? As believers we are blessed with a desire to serve Yahweh and we each have our own journey in understanding what that means biblically.

 

[rgmann]

I think you misunderstood @The Revolting Man, @Asforme&myhouse.

@The Revolting Man has stated numerous times throughout this debate that believers in Christ are not presently under the new covenant, that the new covenant is only for the Jews and won't be in effect until after Christ's return.

Interesting, except the “New Covenant” in Hebrews 8 is specifically for the Jews and it doesn’t start until after Christ’s return. So what’s this New Covemant you’re talking about?

Are you sure you get it? Hebrews 8 is specifically referencing Jeremiah, a covenant that won’t be in place until the Jews are perfected morally at some future date. So what “New Covenant” is with gentiles now? As a gentile now I’m very interested to know about it. I just don’t.

You don’t have a “new covenant”. It’s a ridiculous lie that was foisted on you by Replacement Theology lunatics.

It’s a principle [i.e., new covenant] that you read into the text in a number of different places. It’s good you finally admit it. Getting you to this place is the proudest achievement of my BibFam career to date. Who knows what else we can accomplish together over the coming years.

I’m not doing this again. Hebrews 8 is an example that the covenant is capable of being changed because Jeremiah 31 says it can be. That’s it. There’s no new covenant made. The Law has been changed, we no longer need a priesthood, but there’s no new covenant.

That, my friend, is a false gospel. The Lord Jesus Christ plainly stated: “This cup is the new covenant [Gk: kainos diatheke] in My blood” (Luke 22:20). The Apostle Paul plainly stated: “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Corinthians 3:5-6). The writer of Hebrews plainly states: “And for this reason He [Christ Jesus] is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance” (Hebrews 9:15). As I stated before, “You either enter the new covenant by genuine faith in Christ, or you remain under the bondage of the old covenant, which only ends in death and eternal condemnation.”

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

For those who say that the moral law is the only one has any weight after Yeshua's death and sacrifice. How do you decide which laws are moral, vs.ceremonial and civil? Things like stealing would be moral, but they would also fall into the civil category. There are many laws/commandments which fall into multiple categories.

When we say something to the effect that the moral law is the only part carried over, that is a bit of a misnomer, and I apologize for the lack of clarity. The Sinai covenant is fulfilled. No Christ follower is under its’ authority. To illustrate, when the thirteen colonies won the revolutionary war the laws of England no longer applied to Americans on US soil, period. Now US law applies. Murder was illegal under British law and it also happens to be illegal under American law. If someone is tried for a murder committed in the United States, would they be tried under British law or American law? Of course it would be American law even though murder is illegal under both laws. In the same way, when Jesus said in John 13:34-35

[34] “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. [35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

He gave the law of the new covenant. Murder is wrong under the law of Moses and it is also wrong under the new covenant. The Apostle Paul says that the old covenant is abolished. The writer of Hebrews say it’s obsolete. The Apostle John says that we know that we love God when we keep his commandments and then tells us what commandments he’s talking about 1 John 3:23-24 [23]” And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.“

For those who feel called to observe the Torah laws, feasts, etc, just because there is not temple or way to observe the ceremonial laws as prescribed doesn't mean that they no longer apply. There have been many times in the biblical history where the Jewish people have lived in exile (Babylon, Assyria, Eygpt, etc) or have not had a temple to observe these laws. In these cases the desire to fulfill all of the laws of Yahweh and to do so to the best way possible under circumstances is most important. Its the heart and desire to serve Yahweh as perfectly as possible. Inability to practice does not equate to them being made void and done away with.

We have freedom in Christ Jesus. I don’t judge you for eating or not eating, keeping a Shabbat, or feast days, enjoy! By the same token do not judge another believer who chooses not to. We are not under that law.

Will anyone outside of Yeshua ever be able to perfectly follow all of the laws and commands of Yahweh? No. Yeshua followed Torah laws and commandments.

You’re absolutely right! No one can but Him and He fulfilled it.

As believers we all strive to serve Yahweh to the best of our understanding and abilities. For some that is Torah/Sabbath and for others that is Grace/Sunday. If these beliefs are firmly based in Salvation through faith in Yahweh and belief in Yeshua as the Messiah and Redeemer (Faith, not works) then we are starting out with that foundational building block in common. We are all sinners and as our understanding grows we strive to remove what we learn to be sinful from our lives.

I agree, faith, not works for salvation. And if we love the one who has saved us we will keep His commandments. “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” And again “And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.“