I read this book when it was first released and was concerned at some of the allegations Mr Hunt made. I was so disappointed at his erroneous claims I threw the book out and recommended to others they not read it.
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Beef with the TULIP. Indictments against bad theology.
- Thread starter Transformator Reformator
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I’m not necessarily going to judge an individual or a doctrine based on the deeds of some.
There are plenty of folks practicing biblical polygyny who are scoundrels and deadbeats. It’s not the fault of polygyny.
I’m well aware of the martyrs killed by the Reformed churches. I’m not going to necessarily implicate their soteriology as much as their adherence to the concept of a state church that they inherited from their RCC fathers...absolute power corrupts absolutely. It’s one reason why I don’t want a theocracy in America. It’ll just serve to oppress the non-aligned folks like myself.
i dont think you can really assail what they are saying in principle. the magistrate is supposed to punish evil. you're worried they will make a mistake and punish not-evil, and that's true, they will
no, it won't "just" do that.
But they weren’t just punishing evildoers. They killed those with nonaligned views. Just about all of us on this site would have been burned or drowned.
Sad episode in history.
Okay. Take out just.
Theocracy will serve to punish the nonaligned...most on this site.
you're pointing at mistakes that the gov has made in punishing evil, and thinking this means governments shouldnt have the power necessary to punish actual evil.
yes, polygyny is a hot issue and if joel webbon or doug wilson were made emperor of america tomorrow you'd probably be given 60 seconds to run.
here's something hopeful though. the internet is increasing people's knowledge and creedal assumptions are being challenged more than ever. polygamy might be on the way up
yes, polygyny is a hot issue and if joel webbon or doug wilson were made emperor of america tomorrow you'd probably be given 60 seconds to run.
here's something hopeful though. the internet is increasing people's knowledge and creedal assumptions are being challenged more than ever. polygamy might be on the way up
Polygyny isn’t the only nonaligned belief that will be limited.
My personal preference is to have religious liberty, even if secularism is the tradeoff.
The Amish have been given the freedom to operate as they please while being surrounded by secularism. That’s my full hope for America. Do your secular. Just leave the rest of us alone. I don’t need your theocracy. I’ll wait for the king of kings to establish his kingdom.
@Mojo … bruh!!! I’m doin good! I’m blessed and surviving thoroughly homie! Hope you and yours are doing well brother! 
It just seems to me that predestination assumes that God was ok with “creating” and or “allowing” evil beforehand… rather than chalking it all up to free will and his foreknowledge of bad guys doin bad things. But honestly I’m just a layman and talk outa my butt sometimes. lol forming uninformed biases as often as the next guy!
@frederick … dude, I’ve grown to appreciate and respect your input and your words here as a brother in the Lord… so I’ve got no choice but to revisit this book I read several times and loved many many years ago, ..to consider the authors contradictions to Scripture.
Oh and P.S. lord Mojo, we all can see what side you land on… tip toeing thru the tulips… but hey, it’s ok for men to love flowers these days
lol jk
Shalom
It just seems to me that predestination assumes that God was ok with “creating” and or “allowing” evil beforehand… rather than chalking it all up to free will and his foreknowledge of bad guys doin bad things. But honestly I’m just a layman and talk outa my butt sometimes. lol forming uninformed biases as often as the next guy!
@frederick … dude, I’ve grown to appreciate and respect your input and your words here as a brother in the Lord… so I’ve got no choice but to revisit this book I read several times and loved many many years ago, ..to consider the authors contradictions to Scripture.
Oh and P.S. lord Mojo, we all can see what side you land on… tip toeing thru the tulips… but hey, it’s ok for men to love flowers these days
lol jk Shalom
Gi'day mate, it's good to see you back on the forum. Welcome back.
I don't remember the specific false allegations he made or the contradictions of Scripture, however I do remember thinking they were serious enough to warn others against it. One thing I do remember is talking with one of the guys who Mr Hunt asked to read a preproduction copy and the guy telling me about Hunt's reaction to his criticisms of the book.
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Oh man. You caught me.Oh and P.S. lord Mojo, we all can see what side you land on… tip toeing thru the tulips… but hey, it’s ok for men to love flowers these days
Shalom
How’d you know?Seriously, though, I’m just a biblicist. I can see the verses they use and why. I just refuse to put God in a box that my mind can fathom.
He is sovereign and to make him anything less is denigrating Him.
But, he wants all the world to be saved, and the sacrifice of Christ is powerful enough to do it, it’s not limited.
I don’t ever want to figure out God. His ways are beyond understanding.
This is the view of "prevenient grace". It is taught in the Wesleyan-Arminian tradition in which I was raised. I believe Rome also teaches it.
I believe it is incorrect, but also know many sincere Christian brothers and sisters who believe it. My Dad (and deceased Mom), brother, and many other family members (mainly in the Church of the Nazarene) believe it. I regard them as Christians, and they also regard me as one (though they disagree about election, patriarchy, and polygyny).
Again, I think this understanding is wrong, but realize that we aren't justified by having all the right beliefs. We are justified by faith in Christ. We look to Him, and live.
I agree with you that the Saints must abide in Christ. They must persevere in the Faith. They must stand firm until the end. It just seems that everyone who has true faith somehow does persevere until the end.
I don't believe Judas ever had true faith in Christ. He had something, even something impressive (apparently preaching Christ and even working miracles in Christ's Name for example) but I don't believe he ever really ate of the Bread that came down from Heaven that gives Eternal Life, he didn't drink the water that Christ gives, which truly satisfies (in sense of John 4:14). He apparently heard the voice of the Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth, and followed, but didn't hear the Voice of the Good Shepherd, the Only Begotten Son of God, as one of His sheep and follow.
Likewise, I believe many Calvinists don't have true faith. They might hold many correct doctrines, but if they don't "count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:8) there is something terribly wrong. If they don't begin to reflect His loving Character something is terribly wrong.
Christ Himself is the Resurrection, our Eternal Life, the only Way to the Father.
Anyone who has his or her hope in a religion or a religious system has a misguided hope. There is only one Way of salvation and all who are saved by grace through faith in Him stand justified. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Rom. 8:1). If a person's hope for salvation rests in Calvinism or Arminianism they may well not be in Christ Jesus. All those people should take heed of the warning Jesus gave as He concluded His sermon on the Mount; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt. 7:21-23). Shalom
No, some who accept the tenants of Calvinism accept polygyny. Polygyny has nothing to do with the doctrines of sovereign grace. Shalom
I know Torah-obedient Calvinists.
Tell us more. What’s their rationale?
The English clergyman Martin Madan (1726-1790) author of the excellent three volume book "Thelyphthora, or A Treatise on Female Ruin" is one example of a prominent Calvinist who accepted the Biblical legitimacy of polygamy.
I'd also throw in Augustine of Hippo and the apostle Paul.
Of course it is anachronistic to call them "Calvinists", but I would argue that they both taught the "doctrines of grace" and also understood that polygyny is lawful marriage in the sight of God.
I suppose I'm also another example of a generally Reformed Christian who tells the truth about polygyny, though I don't really care to be called a Calvinist, and strongly prefer the "Five Solas of the Reformation" to "TULIP" when explaining my beliefs.
I realize @Transformator Reformator has been hurt and grieved by his Calvinistic mother and other family members. I am sorry about that. That is terrible.
I got thrown under the bus by my previous church, which was/is Calvinistic. My current "Calvinistic" church is also against it, but extends fellowship and membership to me even knowing what I believe.
I imagine they would probably also throw me under the bus if I tried to practice it.
I'm sure the Nazarene (Arminian) church I grew up in would also throw me under the bus for that.
Nearly all of the branches of Christianity are strongly (and wrongly) opposed to polygyny. Yes, most Reformed Christians (Calvinists) are against it. The Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodists, Lutheran's, Pentacostals, Charismatics, non-denominational, Hebrew roots, etc are also generally against polygyny.
I'd also throw in Augustine of Hippo and the apostle Paul.
Of course it is anachronistic to call them "Calvinists", but I would argue that they both taught the "doctrines of grace" and also understood that polygyny is lawful marriage in the sight of God.I suppose I'm also another example of a generally Reformed Christian who tells the truth about polygyny, though I don't really care to be called a Calvinist, and strongly prefer the "Five Solas of the Reformation" to "TULIP" when explaining my beliefs.
I realize @Transformator Reformator has been hurt and grieved by his Calvinistic mother and other family members. I am sorry about that. That is terrible.
I got thrown under the bus by my previous church, which was/is Calvinistic. My current "Calvinistic" church is also against it, but extends fellowship and membership to me even knowing what I believe.
I imagine they would probably also throw me under the bus if I tried to practice it.
I'm sure the Nazarene (Arminian) church I grew up in would also throw me under the bus for that.
Nearly all of the branches of Christianity are strongly (and wrongly) opposed to polygyny. Yes, most Reformed Christians (Calvinists) are against it. The Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodists, Lutheran's, Pentacostals, Charismatics, non-denominational, Hebrew roots, etc are also generally against polygyny.
I would dare to suggest that 'Hebrew roots' are arguably the most openly accepting of any of that list, based on personal experience, and contacts with a pretty good sample size of Torah teachers, listeners, and even self-described rabbis.
Pete and I did a "Come out of her, My people" show on my network a while back that was surprisingly well-received. And I know of a number of folks, once resistant, who have come to the obvious, and I would suggest SINGULAR, understanding, given their orientation. If you accept that His Torah is not to be "added to, or subtracted from," there's only one resolution.
It would make sense that they would be more open to it, though many still aren't. Do you think a majority of HR/TK guys support polygyny?
I remember listening to a sermon by Joe Fox (Vikingpreparedness on YouTube) where he admitted that the Law allows polygamy, but thought it causes a lot of problems and should generally be avoided.
Likewise, I would think that Reformed Christians should be more open to polygamy. We believe in far greater continuity between the OT and NT than the Dispensationalists. We also submit to the clear teaching of Scripture when it comes to other difficult and unpopular topics such as Election, male headship, and the doctrine of Hell. The Theonomists especially should support it, but generally don't.