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Who killed them?

Who killed Christ? Was it the heathens or the religious people?
Who killed the prophets of the Old Testament? The pagans or the religious people?
Who killed the apostles of the first century churches of Christ? The prostitutes & tax collectors or was it the religious people?
 
I suppose that once the teaser question has been put out there, some expansion is due.

Is it possible that most religious claimers are not following the faith of the one that created the universe?

What if maybe the folks that killed the prophets, Christ, and His apostles along with many first century christians were not actually adhering to the complete collection of scripture? What if they had picked and chosen a few things here and there and then mixed in a few of their own things. Christ was castigated for not involving Himself in the handwashing rituals. Today we often capitalize the pronoun when speaking of Christ - He as opposed to he. Not saying this is wrong to capitalize the pronoun but rather an example of our inventive ways.

What if fallen man has such a tendency to stray that we need to be looking at that bible with fresh eyes on a regular basis so that we don't fall under the same condemnation?

What if all of the lust for ever increasing governmental power (anti-libertarianism) is not coming from the totally unchurched but from those that are the spiritual offspring of the same
busybodies that had to shut down the saloons in the 1800s and the brothels and make card playing illegal and prohibition, etc?

What if the Hillary mindset is nothing more than a series of progressions from the Elizabeth Cady Stanton era? You know the first meeting of the feminists took place inside of a Methodist church building.
 
Can't say I disagree here, either, MD. (Your last comment comes pretty close to hitting on the theme of J. Wesley Stivers' Eros Made Sacred, BTW. Perhaps you are aware of that.)

I posted elsewhere (on the subject of Isaiah 4:1) an insight that I had received recently that "take away our reproach" was more than simply the obvious reference to iniquity, and barrenness. It refers to the Spirit of Jezebel.


Blessings,
Mark
 
Mark,
I'll be doing some googling to see some of this Eros Made Sacred. I think maybe I have read some of that.
Thanks for the feedback by the way.
 
Its not if.

Look at where we sit, we accept polygamy. Not only is is by and large what the plain reading of scriptures says, its something that is obviously right. When I was reading through the bible my very first time at 11 I saw it was fine, but I dropped it based on the argument no woman would ever want it (God and my wife shot that argument down for me a few years later, Thanks God :) ) Our position is frighteningly obvious, if scripture is the word of God and the people recorded therein are Godly people then who can be against it? But the overwhelming majority is. If we are right about this (and God knows we are) then we necessarily say that the overwhelming majority of christians value their tradition over scripture. Polygamy itself is not the root of why we get such opposition, its that if we are right, they are terribly wrong, and people don't like to be wrong. I looked up one of you're debates on other forums, good work, but you get some really perverted and vindictive chicks after you (polyandry, ick)

But what you said about government power is true too, look at 'The Importance of Being Monogamous: Marriage and Nation Building in Western Canada to 1915' just out from U of Alberta last year. It takes references from works from around 1900 to show how monogamy was deliberately used to control the native populations and subjugate women. Its no sweat off my back to say that most missionaries of the time where tools of the state to increase control on the people, both European and aboriginal. Really, could someone who knows Christ personally and intimately be part of the reservation schools? Will all the people ripping native children from their parents and subjecting them to all that be counted among the elect? No doubt God made some of those tragedies into good, but the people doing them cannot be called good.

What about other times? Wasn't Christ used to control the masses thought the Catholic era? Even Luther backed and was backed by feudal lords, and the anabaptists that rallied the poor where often slaughtered mercilessly weather they put up a fight or where pacifists. What of Byzantium? A holy empire perhaps, but not by Gods standards of Holy. It shows the time that it became easier for the state to control Christianity from the inside rather than deal with it from the outside.

Then we get to what you said, Who killed Christ, Who killed the prophets? Belief in god can be used to control a population, but God sets people free.

People that use god will always be the enemies of people God uses.

But we can take a small benefit form Marx, Freud, and Darwin, Utilitarianism has proven to be a much more effective means of controlling people. Christianity is volatile as it sometimes produces actual Christians, and actual Christians set people free. The devils in charge have been giving people a bit of truth as bait to lead them along, they have been giving people a little something in exchange. But now they are getting to the point of trapping people and giving them nothing in return. That's safer, more efficient, more powerful for them. So we see the state cutting their ties to church over the decades since utilitarianism came into play (well, its roots are before that), and its just a mater of time before the reminent of faithful Christians are not at all tolerated in a 'tolerant' culture. At that time we can see more clearly who is playing for who, so, its a small benefit.
 
Re: Its not if.

Tlaloc said:
People that use god will always be the enemies of people God uses.

Christianity is volatile as it sometimes produces actual Christians,

Nice wording........
 
Jair,

As usual, very profound. I wanted to tell a story that happened here in Bloemfontein, South Africa last night. It was Wednesday night and some people wanted a woman to go to church. She refused, so they shot her twice in the face. She survived and now we have to patch her up. I guess the conformists to religion will never change.

Be blessed,

Ray
 
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