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What is the Church?

Scarecrow

Member
In doing a little research on Church status I was rather alarmed to learn that the IRS and "court decisions" have circumvented the 1st Amendment by defining "Church". Apparently you are free to exercise your right to practice your religion as long as you meet the IRS definition of a "Church". Otherwise you are required to obtain 501(c)(3) status and be regulated by the government.

1st amendment to the Constitution of the Untied States of America:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

IRS Definition of a “Church”:

IRS Publication 1828:

"Church. Certain characteristics are generally attributed to churches. These attributes of a church have been developed by the IRS and by court decisions. They include: distinct legal existence; recognized creed and form of worship; definite and distinct ecclesiastical government; formal code of doctrine and discipline; distinct religious history; membership not associated with any other church or denomination; organization of ordained ministers; ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study; literature of its own; established places of worship; regular congregations; regular religious services; Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young; schools for the preparation of its ministers. The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics, together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether an organization is considered a church for federal tax purposes.

The IRS makes no attempt to evaluate the content of whatever doctrine a particular organization claims is religious, provided the particular beliefs of the organization are truly and sincerely held by those professing them and the practices and rites associated with the organization’s belief or creed are not illegal or contrary to clearly defined public policy.

Therefore, when this publication uses the term “religious organizations,” it is not referring to churches or integrated auxiliaries. Religious organizations that are not churches typically include nondenominational ministries, interdenominational and ecumenical organizations, and other entities whose principal purpose is the study or advancement of religion.

Unlike churches, religious organizations that wish to be tax exempt generally must apply to the IRS for tax-exempt status unless their gross receipts do not normally exceed $5,000 annually."

I found it interesting that "religious organizations" with contributions exceeding $5000.00 annually were required to obtain 501(c)(3) status to remain tax exempt. In other words, if you are a Christian organization but not part of the established Catholic or Protestant Churches (that have already been duped in to obtaining 501(c)(3) "legal status") you simply are not considered to be a "Church" and therefore the exemption class the "Church" has does not apply and you have to conform to any laws they wish to impose upon you.

The IRS is therefore prohibiting the free exercise of religion by requiring "religious organizations" to come under their legal authority through the 501(c)(3) requirement. 501(c)(3) restricts speech and activity of any such organization in order to remain tax exempt.

"The IRS makes no attempt to evaluate the content of whatever doctrine a particular organization claims is religious, provided the particular beliefs of the organization are truly and sincerely held by those professing them and the practices and rites associated with the organization’s belief or creed are not illegal or contrary to clearly defined public policy."

It is also interesting that whatever the government determines is a "legal" practice is also a determining factor in examining the doctrine of an organization. If an organization is set up as a 501(c)(3) corporation and the IRS chooses to look into what is openly discussed, the tax exempt status can easily be removed by the IRS if they determine that "the organization’s belief or creed are not illegal or contrary to clearly defined public policy".

I don't know about you, but this is pretty scary to me.
 
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mathew 10:28 NIV

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him
Luke 12:4-5 NIV

I would suggest reading Mathew 10:17-42 and also luke 12:3-12 it is very much related but I did not want to take up to much room
 
The "scary" part to me is the deception by the government and how many have been deceived by it and the religious organizations bowing to the government and the fact that many are forced to in order to operate "legally". It is scary to think how many are deceived...
 
In doing a little research on Church status I was rather alarmed to learn that the IRS and "court decisions" have circumvented the 1st Amendment by defining "Church". Apparently you are free to exercise your right to practice your religion as long as you meet the IRS definition of a "Church". Otherwise you are required to obtain 501(c)(3) status and be regulated by the government.

This lie is at the VERY ROOT of the deception, Scarecrow.

Read even the IRS website VERY carefully!!!!!


There is no "REQUIREMENT" that ANY 'church' obtain a certificate from Caesar! (UNLESS they choose his 'law' -- and his protection -- instead of God's.) I know of many fellowships and ministries who understand Scripture, and understand the Constitution, who have chosen to avoid that trap.

Only those who want to claim the "benefits" that Caesar offers for his creations "need" to incorporate. They will find - just as Scripture promises - that obedience to a different master, in a corporate body created by a different creator, carries a different set of "blessings" and curses as well. These range from the much-touted "corporate veil" of protection from some of man's lawsuits, so-called "tax exemption" (see Matt. 17:26) as OPPOSED to the complete failure of jurisdiction under the First Amendment, corporate bank accounts, property "ownership" under the name of the state-created artificial person, and so on. The curses, of course, include prohibitions on free speech, subjection to limitations on what that false god will allow to be taught from his pulpits (see "hate crime legislation"), and control of who the state will allow to be employed by its commercial 501c(3) creation.

Read VERY carefully (statutes, case 'law' precedent, history -- like the Indianapolis Baptist Church example from not quite a decade ago -- and the many warnings from Scripture). Those who VOLUNTEER into service to another master will recognize that incorporation subjects those who make that arguable mistake to a completely different "choice of law", subject to the conditions of contract.

Read the First Amendment carefully, too. It is a clear and specific limitation on the power of the central government, a "thou shalt NOT" prohibition of jurisdiction over any church which understands that it is created by God. But the Right to contract is guaranteed by the Constitution as well. Esau was not the only fool to trade away his birthright for a meal ticket.

Those who CHOOSE to call themselves a 'church' UNDER the IRS' definition will be granted the privilege of practicing licensed 'religion' under State auspices. (Those rules, of course, WILL change capriciously.) But do not fail to understand what the Savior says about that choice to serve "another master"!
 
Some people think that all of the work to support and defend the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic happened a long time ago. The reality is that we still need to fight and defend the constitution even and often against our own government. Ron Paul is all over this.
 
cnystrom said:
Some people think that all of the work to support and defend the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic happened a long time ago. The reality is that we still need to fight and defend the constitution even and often against our own government. Ron Paul is all over this.

If there was no constitutional right to religion God would still expect us to practice it in the way he wants us to. In reality the constitution is in a great sense irrelevant in determining morality and yet can be used as a manner to try to force secularists to...... as they should.... because it is better for them not to end up in a lake of fire.

Oh, I do not have freedom of speech and religion anymore..... that is okay I should still tell you about a lake of burning fire, not committing sexual sins and stealing and lying and doing what is right and good or whatever God wants me to say what are you going to do?
 
DiscussingTheTopic said:
If there was no constitutional right to religion God would still expect us to practice it in the way he wants us to...

Oh, I do not have freedom of speech and religion anymore..... that is okay I should still tell you about a lake of burning fire, not committing sexual sins and stealing and lying and doing what is right and good or whatever God wants me to say what are you going to do?

For the most part your comments are on the money, DTT. There is a point which many in the evangelistic church overlook however, as they try to reconcile what they have been taught about "Romans 13" and the "powers that be" that are "ordained of God" with what the "Supreme Law" supposedly says. They misread BOTH Paul and the Constitution.

There is NO CONFLICT whatsoever if you understand the Supreme Law!

Jeremiah 16:19 has it right: we have "inherited lies", and been taught things about 'the law' which have been twisted by the Adversary since long before the Constitution, or the Declaration.

Our Savior did not argue with Satan's claim to authority over the "kingdoms of this world" during His famous verbal confrontation. But He did give us the correct answer: We are to worship the Father as He commands, and serve YHVH "only"!

Those who falsely contend that we are to somehow be obedient to a government which denies BOTH His Authority AND the clear text, meaning, and intent of its own claimed Constitution are being double-minded. Service to "another master" - whether it is deliberate rebellion to Him, or simply ignorance of what the law really says, is fatal, to individuals, and to nations. It is "lack of knowledge" -- of both Scripture and that body of Law which protects that Right -- which causes His people to be 'destroyed'.

My intent in pointing out these things is to remove at least part of the fear associated with that understanding. Those who speak boldly, as Paul also said, "whatever God wants me to say" truthfully from His Word have nothing to fear, and are NOT defying any "Lawful" authority over them, ordained by Him. After all, "what can man do to me?"
 
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