Virginity myths ted talk

[Joleneakamama]

The young woman who was discovered to not be a virgin on her wedding night was said to have “played the whore in her father’s house”.

Hmm, how was that to be discovered?

I saw this a few years ago and found it interesting. Talking to women in my family and extended family first experiences varied substantially, and "tokens" of virginity are not always a thing. So the real life experiences related by people I trust confirms the information this Ted talk presents.

I always wondered too when reading the Bible how they ever determined what women had "known a man" and which were virgins as there were cases when the virgins were taken as maid servants and kept alive, while all who were not were put to death.

Sometimes the Bible leaves lots of questions, or rather details, unanswered.

 

[MeganC]

I always wondered too when reading the Bible how they ever determined what women had "known a man"

I can usually tell. People always broadcast it when they've been intimate. But I watch body language way more than most people do.

Like with younger people before they're intimate there's always this tension between them if they touch or bump into each other. Then one day that tension isn't there anymore.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I saw this a few years ago and found it interesting. Talking to women in my family and extended family first experiences varied substantially, and "tokens" of virginity are not always a thing. So the real life experiences related by people I trust confirms the information this Ted talk presents.

I always wondered too when reading the Bible how they ever determined what women had "known a man" and which were virgins as there were cases when the virgins were taken as maid servants and kept alive, while all who were not were put to death.

Sometimes the Bible leaves lots of questions, or rather details, unanswered.

Deuteronomy 22:15-21 KJV
[15] Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: [16] And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; [17] And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. [18] And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; [19] And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. [20] But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: [21] Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.




It seems that the tokens referred to in Deuteronomy were the sheets or maybe a cloth from the wedding night. At least that is what Scripture appears to be saying.

 

[Mark C]

...the tokens referred to in Deuteronomy were the sheets or maybe a cloth from the wedding night.

Sure, the early equivalent of bedsheets. There'd be a stain.

And here's the problem with the claims in the video. Call it "sample size"...
(Asked another way...how many men today have actually 'known' a real virgin? Or, perhaps better put, expect to ever even encounter another one?)

 

[Mark C]

Sometimes the Bible leaves lots of questions, or rather details, unanswered.

Call this a PS. But I think it's the real point of the Biblical references and admonitions.

Virginity once had value. Not any more, in a "post-Biblical" society.

 

[his_muse]

(Asked another way...how many men today have actually 'known' a real virgin? Or, perhaps better put, expect to ever even encounter another one?)

Implying virginity is lost before adulthood for everyone? There’s always an exception, but you’re probably right that outside of someone raised in the faith, virginity has little to no value to teenagers today.

 

[steve]

Certain activities like riding horses and bicycles have been claimed to be injurious to the membrane.
While many don’t accept that, I do because of my own experience.
50 years ago I married a virgin. I totally accept that she was one, even though the hymen wasn’t there. She was a robust rider of horseflesh.

“50 years ago I married a girl who had been a virgin when I met her.”

Fixed it.

 

[steve]

It’s my personal belief that this video is an attempt to create a modern myth, because science of late is so accurate, doncha know.

The idea that men could look down on a female who hadn’t saved herself for marriage just isn’t allowed.

 

[LDremoved]

Thank you for the thread and the video, i'm going to watch it when I get home later. Reading that also concerned me because I often read about how women are treated in other countries and their horror stories involving "virginity checks." Also just recently, T.I. (a rapper) admitted to scheduling his now grown daughter a gynecologist appoint every year after her Birthday to make sure she's still a virgin.

Thank you for the thread and the video, i'm going to watch it when I get home later. Reading that also concerned me because I often read about how women are treated in other countries and their horror stories involving "virginity checks." Also just recently, T.I. (a rapper) admitted to scheduling his now grown daughter a gynecologist appoint every year after her Birthday to make sure she's still a virgin.

[15] Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: [16] And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; [17] And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. [18] And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; [19] And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. [20] But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: [21] Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.




It seems that the tokens referred to in Deuteronomy were the sheets or maybe a cloth from the wedding night. At least that is what Scripture appears to be saying.

So the sheets/cloth is a reference to blood? Also on the flip side, do you think it's possible a father's word about his daughter's virginity was good enough in most situations?


Edited- put all my post together, to stop flooding the thread

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

@LovesDogs It doesn’t appear to allow for taking the fathers word on the matter because it says, if the tokens are not presented, that she wasn’t a virgin.

 

[LDremoved]

@LovesDogs It doesn’t appear to allow for taking the fathers word on the matter because it says, if the tokens are not presented, that she wasn’t a virgin.

Thank you, yes I think that's what I got out of it but it got me thinking what about when it comes to proving the daughter is a virgin, do you think it's possible the father vouched for his daughter's virginity?

 

[Joleneakamama]

It’s my personal belief that this video is an attempt to create a modern myth, because science of late is so accurate, doncha know.

The idea that men could look down on a female who hadn’t saved herself for marriage just isn’t allowed.

I didn't get that impression at all.
What I got out of the talk was that a medical examination is not conclusive, and can not always detect the loss of hymen. If a pregnant girl still can still look intact, virginity can not be conclusively determined that way. What my relatives shared indicates that if knowing a man and having sex is what really is loss of virginity, a lack of tokens or blood is no proof it was "lost." That is why the presenters in the video concluded that the best way to know....is to ask the girl.
If you don't trust her answer.....you probably shouldn't marry her anyway!

It is sad that the (un)holy grove (hollywood) has so succeeded in changing people's view of virginity. Secular kids nowadays don't value it, they see it as a detriment.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Thank you, yes I think that's what I got out of it but it got me thinking what about when it comes to proving the daughter is a virgin, do you think it's possible the father vouched for his daughter's virginity?

I’m sure often times a father would side with his daughter... but how would a father know for sure if his daughter was a virgin or not? Without the tokens a father’s word seems be irrelevant in the passages in question.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Thank you, yes I think that's what I got out of it but it got me thinking what about when it comes to proving the daughter is a virgin, do you think it's possible the father vouched for his daughter's virginity?

The interesting thing about this passage in Deuteronomy is that it doesn’t seem to indicate that the husband’s, the father’s, or the wife/daughter’s word holds any water in the legal system on this topic. Everyone would have incentive to lie to protect themselves, and that’s why the evidence is the determining factor.

 

[LDremoved]

I’m sure often times a father would side with his daughter... but how would a father know for sure if his daughter was a virgin or not? Without the tokens a father’s word seems be irrelevant in the passages in question.

I assumed because the daughter was under the father's household he would know what she is/has been doing, that was sort of my thought process. That men would trust other men before they would trust the daughter's word about being a virgin.

 

[MemeFan]

I can usually tell. People always broadcast it when they've been intimate. But I watch body language way more than most people do.

Like with younger people before they're intimate there's always this tension between them if they touch or bump into each other. Then one day that tension isn't there anymore.

There are lot of tells.

Mate guarding, the way they look at each other, touching and standing together in ways not shared with friends, both arms are around body of another (usually short time), hand holding etc....

How would you shown affection in public to another person? Look for same signs.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I assumed because the daughter was under the father's household he would know what she is/has been doing, that was sort of my thought process. That men would trust other men before they would trust the daughter's word about being a virgin.

I see what you’re saying. One question that I have is, do fathers of teenage girls today know 100% that their teenage daughters are virgins? Why would a man trust another man who has reason to lie to protect his own daughter, over the daughter’s word? I don’t think the world of men is as much of a good ol’ boys club as many women think.

 

[LDremoved]

I see what you’re saying. One question that I have is, do fathers of teenage girls today know 100% that their teenage daughters are virgins? Why would a man trust another man who has reason to lie to protect his own daughter, over the daughter’s word? I don’t think the world of men is as much of a good ol’ boys club as many women think.

Well I wasn't referring to a good ol boys club really, just a difference in culture than what we have today. I was referring to the past because I was trying to figure out how people knew for a fact women were virgins in the Bible. Since a man ruling the household was more common, maybe it was an agreement/promise between the fathers? Just a thought, it was my purest thought and hope for the situation at least.

I think these days they should definitely trust the women they're marrying though, like @Joleneakamama commented- if you can't trust the person you're marrying then you shouldn't get married.

 

[mrwill]

If you knew you’d have to present a token on your wedding night, to prove virginity, it probably created a big incentive to keep an active eye on the daughters and for the daughters to avoid sex. Probably made it a lot easier for the dad to have confidence in saying his daughter ways a virgin… chaperones, etc… I doubt they had unsupervised time with men at all prior to being married.

 

[cnystrom]

. Secular kids nowadays don't value it, they see it as a detriment.

It is not just secular kids. My wife and I watch "Married at First Sight", a show where basically perform arranged marriages and then watch what happens. Anyway, often there are "Christians" on the show and they are never virgins, and if by rare chance one is a virgin, it is seen as a problem, not a virtue.

If virginity is still a value in the church at large, it is only a symbolic or hypothetical once.

The other thing they get wrong is that they think it is a virtue to "go slow" and do not see that once they get married they not only do not have to take it slow, but may in fact have a duty to speed it up.