• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Twisted Times...

Curtis

Curtis

Member
Real Person
Male
Check out the below advice...the paganization of foundations! They even pulled one out of their hat that we have not heard before in the Sapphira argument.

Curtis

P.S. This is fresh. I just finished reading after Shawna received and told me about it.

**********
Shawna,
Hi!  I think a week or so ago we talked a little about getting together last week.  That week filled up quickly.  And now this week is Thanksgiving week.  Another busy one.  Are you running in the Turkey Trot?  Are you going to your uncle's?  do you have an oven yet?

So, how are things--real life--going?  It was good to see you at SDC, although it seemed awkward.  Was it to you?  I still feel very confused; not about my beliefs, but about my response.  We've prayed and studied and prayed and studied (ever since you first told me your new belief) and we cannot see things regarding marriage the way you guys see it now.  There seems to be no reason to try to explain where we're coming from because you already know--after all you used to believe the same way.  But I feel compelled to share some things from my heart.

II Tim 3:14-16 – But as for you, continue to hold to the things that you have learned and of which you are convinced, knowing from whom you learned them, and how from your childhood you have had a knowledge of and been acquainted with the sacred Writings, which are able to instruct you and give you the understanding for salvation which comes through faith in Christ Jesus.  Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, and for training in righteousness...

Perhaps I should ask this question first--are you still of the belief that multiple wives is a good thing?  I’m sure you’d let me know if you’ve changed your mind.
Proverbs 24:6 -- “...in an abundance of counselors there is victory and safety.”

What  responses have you gotten from other friends that are believers in the Bible and Jesus that you've shared this with.  Are you getting support from long-time friends?  Or are you just building new relationships with people who are already of this lifestyle?  Have you told your parents yet?

II Peter 2:1-3  -- ...there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines...and many will follow their immoral ways and lascivious doings...and in their covetousness they will exploit you with false arguments...
BE CAREFUL WHO YOU ARE LISTENING TO!!!  We have an enemy who wants to DESTROY us.  Do not walk into his snare!

II Tim 4:3 & 4 – For the time is coming when [people] will not tolerate sound and wholesome instruction, but, having ears itching [for something pleasing and gratifying], they will gather to themselves one teacher after another to a considerable number, chosen to satisfy their own liking and to foster the errors they hold, And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wonder off into myths and man-made fictions.

Shawna, I just want you to know we still feel great concern for you and your family.  We pray for you daily to know the perfect will of God.  Please seek Him through His Word.  Wait on Him.  Find out what Hesays to you, not what some other man says He says.  Pray that Curtis would know the Truth.  (There’s nothing manipulative in that prayer—I pray it for Xxxx! )  

Please remember Sapphira—she was not protected for agreeing with her husband’s sin.  Her path was the same as his.  Acts 5: 1-10. 
This is a very serious issue.  Take it seriously...before the Lord.  Seek Him.  Cry out to Him for His wisdom.  Be strong in the Truth.  Be the helpmeet God created you to be.  Remember your children!

These may seem like hard words, but I am burdened to share them with you because I love you.  Many years ago when I was not walking as I should with the Lord, those who truly loved me shared hard words with me.  I did not like it; it made me mad; it even made me not like those people very much.  But the words were Truth and I could not deny them.  They were living and active and ultimately revealed the intentions of my heart and brought conviction, and sorrow which led to repentance.  I continue to this day to thank God for those loving friends who loved me enough to speak those hard words even when I was resistant.  I shudder to think what my life would be today had they not persisted. 

If I can serve you in any way, please let me know.  I pray you’ll have a blessed Thanksgiving!

Love, Xxxxx
 
LOL, they always seem to forget to tell you what sin it is, as described in the Bible, where the reference is, and where any examples of God dealing with it in any negative manner are, exactly.

Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.


I think the wife would have doornailed without the husband going first. It is clear that her punishment was earned by her actions, not her husbands. They could at least get that straight. What would happen if we started writing letters back to these people that said the exact same things that they say to us, with the exact same verses, but added in something from Mark's stuff, namely, the I can show you where it is allowed, you can't show me where it is a sin, which one of us is on the Lord's side? Which one of us do those verses apply to more in this situation?

Why is it so obvious, the manner in which they try to manipulate?

What responses have you gotten from other friends that are believers in the Bible and Jesus that you've shared this with. Are you getting support from long-time friends? Or are you just building new relationships with people who are already of this lifestyle? Have you told your parents yet?
Click to expand...

Trying to make you feel like the only ones that acknowledge this truth are fringe, and playing on your emotions to not reject friendships when it is the friends that will reject you, not the other way around, and trying to scare you with parental blackmail. Crazy.

II Tim 3:14-16 – But as for you, continue to hold to the things that you have learned and of which you are convinced, knowing from whom you learned them, and how from your childhood you have had a knowledge of and been acquainted with the sacred Writings, which are able to instruct you and give you the understanding for salvation which comes through faith in Christ Jesus. Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, and for training in righteousness...
Click to expand...

This is such a great verse, could you tell me how you see this applying to Exo 22:16,Exo 21:10, Deu 25:5, Deu 21:15 and all the other verses that prove that multiple wives is not sin, and how you are sure that this verse applies to me and my position, and not you in yours, seeing as how I have actual verses and Law to back me up, and you have, well, tradition and stuff.......

If I can serve you in any way, please let me know.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer, can you please show me what sin it is, and where that is found? Oh, yeah, from Scripture, almost forgot that part.


Sorry for the sarcasm. I might edit it out later.
 
That would be an annoying letter for her. There is no content to it, its just hammering that she is wrong and grouping her with wrong people. Its a pity but its just slur isnt it?
 
>>If I can serve you in any way, please let me know.

Please, Kxxx, DO serve Shawna! Give her one scripture, JUST ONE, that supports the idea that PM is morally wrong, rather than this long tirade of gut-twisting innuendo!

Sapphira, indeed!

If she's wanting to quote scripture from Timothy, isn't that where Paul called "forbidding to marry" a doctrine of demons?
 
Good points all. I can't help but laugh about that "ALL Scripture...for reproof and correction..." abuse. After all, WHAT constituted the sum of "all Scripture" when that letter was written?

But to quote II Tim 4:3-4 about having "itching ears" and "heaping" unto themselves teachers and MISS THE WHOLE POINT is beyond the pale.

I guess if your ears itch badly enough, and you heap together a sufficient number of bad teachers that are just as ignorant of the "sacred Writings" as you are, then you can feel justified that in "abundance of counselors there is victory and safety".


The only thing missing is a claim that the holy spirit [sic] told them to ignore Scripture, and "teach as doctrine the commandment" of Monogamania.

Not that I expected to hear Romans 3:4, however:
...let God be true, but every man a liar...
 
Thanks guys for your input. Here is what Shawna chose to write...

Xxxxx,

Thanks for the email.  I appreciate your heart for me and my family.  Yes, life has been busy here, too.  We're going to my uncle's again.  We do most years.  And I am not running in the Trot.  Last year I ran fast, rushed home, hurried to take a shower and leave to drive 2 hours.  I wouldn't mind doing it again, but not while pregnant.  I'm still running....I will for most of the pregnancy, but it is very slow going!  I'm not concerned with race times right now and don't feel like rushing around.  I imagine I won't do that race for a few years, since next year I'll be nursing exclusively still.

My oven got fixed this week!  Yay!  On Sun I made 13 loaves of bread, 8 pizza crusts, and 2 batches of cinnamon rolls!  Whew!  I can now use more of my freezer meals too.  I don't think I want to eat soup or scrambled eggs the rest of my pregnancy!  lol!

It was good to see you at SDC, too.  It was probably more awkward for you than for me.  I'm still the same girl I've always been and have no reason to act different.  I could tell you didn't know quite how to act, as you started walking ahead of me on the way to the cars, and then came back to talk.  And I figure I know what my answer is from a previous question I sent in an email from seeing Xxxx's response.  I'm sad by it all.  I've always considered you a "God-send" of a friend and have so enjoyed being around you and your family.   If I had a good friend that I was really close to, I would not respond in the same way, but that's OK.  I was just thinking earlier today how it has seemed my whole life I have had to deal with friend issues where many times I had to stand alone.  It has been good in the sense of building inner strength, but has been hard in the past, especially as a 7 or 8  year old!  Of course growing up in a public school can do that!  I don't know if it was just my year, or not, but many years through school all the way up until I started at New Covenant in 10th grade,  there were many years I just didn't have any one I would call a real friend.  I was always friendly of course, and consider myself a likable person, but there just weren't a lot of like-minded kids around me.  I remember being invited by a new girl to a slumber party that she had invited several others to also, and even at such young ages, they were playing with a Weegie board (don't know if that's how you spell it).  And of course the most recent was when we left our church, which eliminated most people that we've been friends with for the last 10 years+ because they thought we were crazy, and then even both parents disassociated from us when we decided to go to India (C.'s parents) and got pregnant with Sam (my parents).  So I guess I'm saying that, no, its not that I like being cast out from people I've considered good friends.  After all, I'm a fairly normal person with normal feelings.  I like to be liked and have friends! lol! But I also am not one to go with the crowd to be liked or be popular.  My allegience is to God and to Curtis.  And I've had friends in the past who have liked me, but didn't really like Curtis, and unfortunately, as I'm sure you can understand, I just can't be around people like that.  He's connected to me, so when someone is against him, they might as well include me.  I would consider myself a loyal person and my loyalty is to C. and God before anything else.  

So in saying all that, no, I haven't told my parents yet.  As you can imagine, I'm not looking forward to the turmoil that will most definitely cause, especially while being pregnant.  I really don't like conflict.  And its not like you can bring something like that up at the dinner table!  I'm sure we'll wait till the holidays are behind us and go from there.  As for other friends who are of like mind in the sense of believing in God and the Bible, etc, we've only had one other friend react in the way you all did.  Well, I'll have to say them (a couple) and a mutual friend of the couple and us, but I link them together because they're always around each other.  I believe I told you what the friend had said......she's the one trying to divorce her husband etc.  I would be interested to know what you or some of the others advise to me would be, if I actually believed Curtis was wrong.  Would it be to leave him?  Would it be to argue with him and try to convince him otherwise?  Anyways, all other ones we've talked to have been more inquisitive and have certainly not cut us off.  They may not all agree, but then, many don't agree with many things we believe and we still get together.  I'm sure there will be others who take the route of disassociating with us, though.  Interestingly enough, I did have one friend that I was talking to and she mentioned how she has joked about it on several occasions when her sister-in-law was over and they would work in the kitchen together and get along well and she would say how nice it would be to have another wife around.  

As far as Sapphira goes, I think there is a big difference between lying and doing something that is condemned as being with those that will be thrown into the lake of fire, and with looking into something that is provided for by God as in Deut. 21:10, or as spoken as something God blessed different men with. 2 Sam. 12:8 & 1 Kings 15:5 That's a pretty huge difference.  And as for living out the things I was taught in childhood, I believe I am following the same principles, certainly not living in the same way we were raised, though.  If that were so, our kids would be in public schools, we would be junking our bodies full of sugar and antibiotics as soon as someone got the sniffles, and we'd go to a large church, all of which we don't believe is God's plan for us.  Of course if that verse was used with everyone in that way, well......there would be many who would be living pretty different lives right now.  

In saying all of that, I am praying for our family too.  I want God's best for us too.  I would still like to get several of your recipes in the future!

Love,
Shawna
 
In an age where up is down and right is wrong it would seem best to re-consider some core truths. Relativism has prevailed and from government legislation and judicial benches, to school classrooms, and onto the Christian churches. Absolutes have eroded to the reasoning of the day. Bumper sticker catch phrases have superceded the honest searching of Scriptures (Acts 17:11).

Over the past several mornings I have read verses like "engage in good deeds" (Titus 3:8), "learn what is pleasing to the Lord" (Eph. 5:10), and "walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you" (1 Thes. 2:12).

What makes a thing good or bad, right or wrong? For that matter what are the things pleasing to the Lord or ways that are worthy of His calling? In 1 Cor. 5:9 Paul writes do “not associate with immoral people”. So what defines morality? Does government, society, majority rule, culture, or even church traditions?

I ask these questions for our edification. Pastor Randy recently posted a paper written by Dr. Gardoski in which he concluded that the Biblical Family Movement “leads to immoral practices”. So I would ask again Dr. Gardoski, and all others reading this post, but most especially my brothers and sisters on this board (and part of this movement); what and who defines morality? Is morality an absolute or does it change from time to time, from geographical place to place, or from people to people?

Ray
 
Shawna,

From my perspective that was a very kind response. Keep up the good work!
 
Shawna is such a sweet girl. I so respect her in such a myriad of ways. Quite certainly a virtuous woman.

Curtis
 
Shawna certainly remained much calmer than I did in some of my response emails. Good point about "I would be interested to know what you or some of the others advise to me would be, if I actually believed Curtis was wrong. Would it be to leave him? Would it be to argue with him and try to convince him otherwise?" I never got an answer to that question when I asked it to my aggressors. They just gave me more run around and "you can still be a Godly wife without supporting him on this issue" or "you are the only one who can save Paul from this road to Hell. If not, save yourself before it's too late". It's not me who can save him, but Jesus Christ and, so far after us both praying for wisdom and understanding, He hasn't changed the road we're on.

Even if you were just surrounding yourselves with people who believe the same way as you, most of us got here by reading the Word. I personally came to any knowledge of polygyny through reading the Old Testament. So it's not like we're just listening to false teachers and stick together because of our common interest.

Yesterday at the library I ran into one of the people who hurt me the most regarding my belief in plural marriage. This time last year, I considered her my best friend. Last February when I confronted her about not only outing us to the church, but distorting our words, she told me that I should expect it and that there was nothing wrong with what she did. With the help of my Redeemer, I do not carry a burden of bitterness toward her, but I still want to stay guarded and not giver her any info for gossip fodder. Yesterday I gave her a big smile and wave and went on about my book hunting. When I got to my truck, I found a note under the windshield wiper. She said that she had been thinking about us a lot and wondering how I am doing. She told me to call her and wants to get together sometime. It is so tempting because I long for friendship, I always have and would do most anything for it. I do not want to give her any information so that she can pervert it. I cannot lie and say that I have changed my mind about what God meant what He said about x, y, z scriptures just so that I can regain a "friend". Jesus Christ is my friend and all that I need. Paul and the kids are a bonus. If they're all I have, I'm doing quite well, thankyouverymuch.

I
 
Friends,

Thanks for the reply's. It is always nice to know someone besides myself is going through/has gone though the same thing. Of course there's always the "cloud of witnesses" who have gone before us, also. This particular friend is one of only two who have responded in such a way. Yes, I feel the same way, DeeAnn, about being thankful for my family as well, in spite of how anyone else treats us. I have a strong husband, and he's a mighty good mate! Not to mention how sweet all my kids are! During this Thanksgiving, I'll be thankful for the "peace before the storm", and when the storm actually hits, I will keep my perspective of being worthy to be called HIs Own.

Be blessed!
Shawna

p.s. By storm, I mean the discussion with my parents, which is yet to come....
 
I have had letters like that from my little sister. I wish I could have been as loving and eloquent as Shawna. Shawna, you are a true lady.

SweetLissa
 
Thanks for bringing up this topic. A "friend" of mine confronted me about my belief in polygyny the other day. She said that she had heard gossip from about 5 different people about my belief in it. I didn't really waste my time talking to her about it because I knew that she was not seeking truth. She was only trying to confirm information from the gossip that she was invovled in. I will only spend time talking to people who are truly seeking the truth. Not with people who are trying to prove me wrong or express "concern" for me and my family.

- Matthew 7:6
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

We only told two people about our belief in this and word seems to have spread quickly. I've never felt more popular! LOL It is unfortunate....but the Lord has prompted me to purge my friend lists on the social networking sites that I use. I plan to be silent for a while and then just do a sudden mass deleation of an entire network of people who are interconnected with each other. I was feeling so many conflicting emotions about the whole thing and worrying about people getting upset about it. But I know that the Lord does not want me to entangle myself with people who are not really apart of my life anymore. I realized that I am moving onto a new chapter in my life and I need to do some spring cleaning.

I pray that the Lord gives strength, peace and a sound mind to those going through their own spring cleaning right now. May we remember that we are representing Jesus Christ. Lord protect all of us and our familes. Help us to act in love and kindness and to release any strife or bitterness that the enemy might try to plant within our hearts.

- Matthew 10:14
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."
 
Dear wifeone,

You will go through several 'purging' stages I am sure. It goes through cycles for me; things will be quiet, and then a new person whom I have a connection feels compelled to deliver me from my error by telling as many people as he knows, without even bothering to ask me about my beliefs.

You are right, though. If they won't accept you for who you are, then were they ever truly your friends to begin with? I've been asking myself that a lot lately.

Blessings,

Doc
 
I think within Shawna's response and interaction there is a certain quiet strength that brings shame upon her "enemies". I was impressed.

I believe that the most powerful place is a place beyond self-protection, beyond victim mentalities, beyond the consciousness of personal minority. One man with Yah is a majority. Relaxed well-founded confidence that remains steady when the naysayers swarm around you definitely holds the "lighthouse" position which the waves must break around.

Weak human natural responses are below the people of Yah.

Easier said than done, but surely can be done. Let us all access the grace to actually do it from the place far deeper than facade, more integrated than mere conscious thought, and more powerful than human effort. We were never intended to be limited by humanity for that which is intended in the new creation far transcends common human experience.

Yeah but, Yeah but.. let us get off our but's and truly become full partakers of His divine nature. 2 Peter 1:4 Not through mental gymnastics, feelings suppression, self-deceit, and facades but through releasing ourselves to Yah, fearless nakedness of heart, replacing lies with divine truth, and transcending weakness through His strength.

Sincerely,

Curtis

P.S. This is where we are all going.
 
LOL DeeAnn! I wish we had that button on here too! I'd be abusing it! For now I'll just have to give a good and hearty "A-Men!" to Curtis and to Shawna for handling the situation so well.
 
From Isaiah 54:17:

No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHVH, And their righteousness is from Me," Says YHVH.
Click to expand...


Even before this topic came up here, this verse has been given to me more than once over the last few days. I continue to pray about the proper interpretation of the specifics - because it certainly LOOKS like an imperative:

every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn.

It would seem that we can condemn an evil tongue (lashon hora, in the Hebrew - which is the common terminology used to describe "gossip" as well) and yet forgive the speaker.

And since other lessons seem to clearly indicate that He is our DEFENDER, and we -- in following His example -- are not necessarily to "defend" ourselves from accusation, but trust in Him, that there is a difference between "condemning" judgment against us, and defending ourselves verbally FROM it.

Yeah, I'm still studyin' this one...

(BTW, I noted that the NKJV, alone, capitalizes the You in "You shall condemn." I still tend to think that the verse, from context, is intended to put the onus for proper action on US.)
 
Mark,

Yes, I have noted that "You" in previous studies, but I think that is an incorrect translation. If you look at verse 16, it is God Himself speaking, addressing the people. Therefore, I would have to the conclude the the "you" is "us".

Just my two cents.

Doc
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top