"Torah" from a Christian point of view.

[steve]

Let’s not forget the scariest passage (ok, to me) in the Bible.
Matt. 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I have been told that “work iniquity” would be better translated lawlessness.
All I can say is work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[PeteR]

The Law of God and the Law of Moses are the same.

The question is has the penalty for not being able to follow them been paid or not.

We agree that the penalty has been paid. We disagree on our responsibility as members of the house.. example, I love my children, but I have expectations that I have articulated that make life in the house peaceful and pleasing to me.

In like manner, God gives very clear instruction on what pleases Him. I choose to learn and live by those things because it makes Him happy and brings me blessings.

 

[Pacman]

The Law of God and the Law of Moses are the same.

The question is has the penalty for not being able to follow them been paid or not.

Yes it's been paid I haven't seen anyone here claim otherwise. But that doesn't mean the law is no longer the standard for our behavior.

Romans 3:31 NASB
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 6:1-2 NASB
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [2] May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Where do you get that idea?

Exodus 13, 19, Numbers 3, 8

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Leviticus 19:35-37 NASB
'You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. [36] You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt. [37] You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the LORD.'

God would not be just to have a different set of "rules" for different groups of people. Or for a different time period. That would be the very definition of an unjust balance...

Be careful you don’t try to put God in a box you made. It’s pretty easy to make God in your image.

 

[steve]

Be careful you don’t try to put God in a box you made. It’s pretty easy to make God in your image.

What I like to say is that YHWH created us in His own image, then man returned the favor.

 

[Pacman]

Be careful you don’t try to put God in a box you made. It’s pretty easy to make God in your image.

Yes clearly I understand that there are different commands for specific folks within the Torah. Levite’s, women, men, farmers... my point is he gave his standard and also told us he doesn’t change. And there are some very specific elements of that standard that are said to be perpetual, everlasting, throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places...

No where in scripture are we told otherwise. We are never told that it changed.

If those things ended which are clearly stated to be eternal how can we have confidence that eternal life will not end?

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Yes clearly I understand that there are different commands for specific folks within the Torah. Levite’s, women, men, farmers... my point is he gave his standard and also told us he doesn’t change. And there are some very specific elements of that standard that are said to be perpetual, everlasting, throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places...

No where in scripture are we told otherwise. We are never told that it changed.

If those things ended which are clearly stated to be eternal how can we have confidence that eternal life will not end.

It’s a matter of conflating the macro nature of God with the micro interaction of God with man. This is the same type of conflation that Evolutionist utilize to prove their theory. Evolution does not happen between kinds (macro) but within kinds (micro) is a different matter. Micro evolution does not support macro evolution.

God does not change, and yet his word documents changes in his interaction with different groups of people at every era and even within eras as well as covenants. One is a micro view and has no bearing or ability to negate God’s macro nature. His macro character does not disprove his ability or authority to change his interaction on a micro level.

Ignoring the micro in an effort to bolster or shore up the macro will inevitably create a god in your own image.

 

[andrew]

@Cap, you're losing me here. Are you saying or agreeing that all Gentile Christians are expected to follow the specific rules and regs of Torah-observance?

 

[rockfox]

God would not be just to have a different set of "rules" for different groups of people. Or for a different time period. That would be the very definition of an unjust balance...

That is nice sounding logic but has two big problems. First, you're torturing that verse to make a point completely alien to it. Second and even greater, the very OT law itself had different rules for different groups of people (men vs. women, Israelites vs. foreigners, priests vs laity). In other words your concept is contradicted by the very law you'd force on other people; a law God specifically made with a specific people, not all people everywhere throughout all time.

my point is he gave his standard and also told us he doesn’t change. And there are some very specific elements of that standard that are said to be perpetual, everlasting, throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places...

No where in scripture are we told otherwise. We are never told that it changed.

For those people presumably, but not for other people for they were never party to that covenant.

And regardless we are told otherwise, hence a 'new covenant'.

 

[Pacman]

Israelites vs. foreigners

Exodus 12:49 NASB
[49] The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Exodus 23:12 NASB
[12] "Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves.

Leviticus 24:22 NASB
[22] There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"

 

[frederick]

I'd like to add a video thought to this discussion (and maybe derail it a little ).

 

[Pacman]

It’s a matter of conflating the macro nature of God with the micro interaction of God with man. This is the same type of conflation that Evolutionist utilize to prove their theory. Evolution does not happen between kinds (macro) but within kinds (micro) is a different matter. Micro evolution does not support macro evolution.

God does not change, and yet his word documents changes in his interaction with different groups of people at every era and even within eras as well as covenants. One is a micro view and has no bearing or ability to negate God’s macro nature. His macro character does not disprove his ability or authority to change his interaction on a micro level.

Ignoring the micro in an effort to bolster or shore up the macro will inevitably create a god in your own image.

Leviticus 19:1-37 NASB
[1] Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: [2] "Speak to all the congregation of the sons of Israel and say to them, 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy. [3] Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My sabbaths; I am the LORD your God. [4] Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves molten gods; I am the LORD your God. [5] 'Now when you offer a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, you shall offer it so that you may be accepted. [6] It shall be eaten the same day you offer it, and the next day; but what remains until the third day shall be burned with fire. [7] So if it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an offense; it will not be accepted. [8] Everyone who eats it will bear his iniquity, for he has profaned the holy thing of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from his people. [9] 'Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. [10] Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God. [11] 'You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. [12] You shall not swear falsely by My name, so as to profane the name of your God; I am the LORD. [13] 'You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of a hired man are not to remain with you all night until morning. [14] You shall not curse a deaf man, nor place a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall revere your God; I am the LORD. [15] 'You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly. [16] You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am the LORD. [17] 'You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. [18] You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD. [19] 'You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together. [20] 'Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free. [21] He shall bring his guilt offering to the LORD to the doorway of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering. [22] The priest shall also make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the LORD for his sin which he has committed, and the sin which he has committed will be forgiven him. [23] 'When you enter the land and plant all kinds of trees for food, then you shall count their fruit as forbidden. Three years it shall be forbidden to you; it shall not be eaten. [24] But in the fourth year all its fruit shall be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. [25] In the fifth year you are to eat of its fruit, that its yield may increase for you; I am the LORD your God. [26] 'You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying. [27] You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. [28] You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD. [29] 'Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness. [30] You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD. [31] 'Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. [32] 'You shall rise up before the grayheaded and honor the aged, and you shall revere your God; I am the LORD. [33] 'When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. [34] The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God. [35] 'You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. [36] You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt. [37] You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the LORD.'"

The reasons given in this passage seem to be very clear and it’s not some isolated “micro” interaction with man it is the very nature of the father. One of us may very well be “creating a god in our image” ...

 

[Pacman]

For those people presumably, but not for other people for they were never party to that covenant.

And regardless we are told otherwise, hence a 'new covenant'.

An adopted child is required to follow the same rules as the natural born child in every family that I am aware of... and we are discussing that new covenant you refer to in another thread. I don’t want to derail this one...

 

[Verifyveritas76]

My point is more along the lines that the macro would involve characteristics or the nature of God.

Such as,
Macro: Holy, Timeless, unchangeable, Just, Merciful etc.

Interactions with his creation thru a macro lense would always have commonalities like: A covenant, oath, swearing, blessings and curses, commandments, instructions, laws, dietary restrictions, acceptable marriage constructs/participants, sanctification, holiness requirements, holy days, etc.

Interactions with his creation thru a micro lense would exhibit variations within the individual covenants, oaths, swearing, blessings and curses, commandments, instructions, laws and dietary restrictions, acceptable marriage constructs/participants, sanctification, holiness requirements, holy days, etc depending on the participants and eras the covenants originate in.

Trying to fit every era in Scripture within the confines of the Sinai Covenant, as if that was the only one ever given, will always be an exercise in futility. It doesnt even require careful reading to be able to point out significant differences pre and post Sinai Covenant.

As to the requirements for the homeborn and stranger being the same, that was only within the Sinai Covenant. There were Gentiles under the Noahide Covenant who were exempt from much of these unless they chose to be under the Sinai Covenant.

 

[PeteR]

Trying to fit every era in Scripture within the confines of the Sinai Covenant, as if that was the only one ever given, will always be an exercise in futility. It doesnt even require careful reading to be able to point out significant differences pre and post Sinai Covenant.

This assumes that the promises to Israel at Sinai failed since all have not been fulfilled. Otherwise, we are that same people. The apostles, particularly Paul, believed we are. AntiSemitic Christianity has chafed against the idea and related prophecies for millennia, but Abba is still here leading His people back into the bond of the covenant.

 

[Cap]

The mercy does not negate the law or even the penalty. It merely covers the penalty.

This is absolutely true. If sin is missing the mark and creates debt, and that debt has been paid, if we keep sinning do we create more debt, or has all debt been paid?

If you keep doing 80 in the 70, over and over and over, will the judge keep having mercy? Or, will he eventually have to enforce the law because you demonstrate a lack of respect for his instructions?

I know this is not going to go over very well, and will be considered a license to sin, but it's not. Its about love. Being forgiven creates love and who wouldn't truly love and honor the One able to forgive, even when one is a failure and keeps needing to be forgiven.

Matthew 1821Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. g

 

[Cap]

We agree that the penalty has been paid. We disagree on our responsibility as members of the house.. example, I love my children, but I have expectations that I have articulated that make life in the house peaceful and pleasing to me.

In like manner, God gives very clear instruction on what pleases Him. I choose to learn and live by those things because it makes Him happy and brings me blessings.

Yes, we agree that the penalty has been paid. I would also say we agree on our responsibility as members of the house. What we disagree on is how the penalty is applied. I am a failure, I will never be able to keep the Law as God intends, its not going to happen. But, what I can do is accept the payment that was made for me and live within the directions I receive from my Master.

By all means @PeteR , and anyone else, live the way you see God leading you when it comes to trying to understand how the Law applies to YOUR life. The problem comes in trying to force others to see it your way. And it further becomes a problem when the idea of a 'chosen' status gets applied to that application.

 

[Cap]

Yes it's been paid I haven't seen anyone here claim otherwise. But that doesn't mean the law is no longer the standard for our behavior.

Romans 3:31 NASB
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 6:1-2 NASB
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [2] May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

The Law is the standard for our behavior, no one is claiming otherwise here as well. The problem is understanding what that penalty that was paid applies to and what exactly is our responsibility in that payment.

 

[Cap]

@Cap, you're losing me here. Are you saying or agreeing that all Gentile Christians are expected to follow the specific rules and regs of Torah-observance?

First, the labels Gentile Christian, and even Messianic Jew, don't mean anything to me. We are all believers in Christ, if that is what we are.

I believe that we are to try our best to understand the Law, to the point of understanding it spiritually as God intended it. Some may have to experience them physically to try and understand them, and it may be a direction for them. Every Dominion operates on a foundation of Laws. Understanding those Laws are important. But in the case of God's Laws, we can not honor them correctly. Never have, never will. That's what the Son of God came for, to save us from our inability to fulfill the Laws. Doesn't mean we are to neglect them or dispose of them. The only way for anyone to truly understand the sin they have been forgiven is to know the Law they have broken. So all the references in the Word of God that point us to the Law is telling us to love the Law because it helps us understand the price that was paid for each of us.

If some find torah-observance a way for them to understand the Law, then they should do it, but it should always lead to faith in God's ability to save them and not any ability on their part to fulfill the Law in their own strength. This is just my view.