"Torah" from a Christian point of view.

[Joleneakamama]

I'm a gonna play hooky from work a minute for a short comment here....if I can do short.
First, "Salvation" in the scriptures looks very different from the modern church concept of praying the sinners prayer so you go to heaven when you die, or even just confessing Yeshua/Jesus and believing Him raised. Biblical salvation according to Luke chapter one is

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Serving Him without fear is a lot easier when the laws of the land are in harmony with YHWH's law.

As a cowboy I know puts it, "All law is legislating morality, but it is either going to be God's morals or man's morals."

We are pro law and 100% for Torah even on a national level, but the challenge comes in correctly defining the laws and then in applying the spirit of the law so as to not harm people by miss applying it.

 

[PeteR]

Currently, I am reading this week's Torah portion, the passage that most of Juaism as well as Messianic and Hebrew roots peeps will discuss tomorrow. It is titled, Kedoshim meaning 'Holy Ones.' The passage is Leviticus 19:1-20:27. (Falls neatly on chapter breaks, though that is often not the case. It begins, 'You shall be holy, for I Yehovah your Elohim am holy.' Then, God gives a list of commands with some discussion detailing how to be holy. Walk through that list and see that a basic Christian who never reads the left half of the Bible keeps 80%. Notice too, as you read it, that 20x in that passage, most in chapter 19, God says 'I am the Lord' or 'I am the Lord your God.' It is the highest concentration of this phrase anywhere in Scripture. It actually begins in chapter 17 and continues through 22. It is here that He defines what 'holiness' or 'being set apart' looks like.

Do we have to perfectly do all of it? We should try, but I don't think we can... We all err in one way or another. We miss the mark. Sometimes willfully (dangerous), sometimes accidentally and sometimes out of ignorance. Previously, you cited James as giving examples of righteous works. James got that material from Torah... part of it specifically from Lev. 19:15 and surrounding verses.

If I believe Torah observance is the evidential works of faith, I would come to the conclusion that those who don't observe Torah have no evidence of their faith. I think that's where I have a hard time following you or understanding...and thus disagree on the "works" portion of you referenced here

Part of what you are not understanding is that what you are defining as 'works of righteousness' that you learn in the Apostolic writings IS Torah. That is where they get the stuff from. Just because you do not understand or observe all of it, doesn't mean by performing some of it that you aren't doing 'works of righteousness.' You are. We are not in opposition. We are each walking according to what the Father has called us to.

When I point to Torah, I'm simply pointing in the same direction every prophet, every apostle and the Messiah Himself pointed. All of them pointed back to the foundation. God doesn't change, His Word doesn't change, the foundation doesn't change. If there seems to have been a change, check the interpretation of the one giving you that impression. This false dichotomy between 'Torah' and 'the Apostolic instructions' is just that. False dichotomy. The two are not in opposition.

Paul in Romans said the Torah is 'the embodiment of knowledge and of truth.' He further said, 'do we nullify the Torah through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we establish the Torah.'

If you are producing the fruits of righteousness, keep producing! Digging deeper doesn't make you more righteous, but it does help you understand the heart of the Father more and walk ever closer to Him... If HE calls you to that path, then go. If not, then keep on keeping on! Either way, we read, study, discuss, debate, etc and together we all learn more.

Blessings.

 

[PeteR]

@Isaac : Here is a commentary on this week's portion that helps tie together a number of the concepts we've been discussion. I think you and others may enjoy it as it connects lots of pieces. Blessings.

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/fcb58...af19-4ee8-99e9-c1129f845a4e/Kedoshim_2019.pdf

 

[Cap]

@PeteR would you say that I am a part of Israel if I believe in Grace through faith in God's work to save me,?

I am only trying logically figure out were all this fits so please don't take offense in my questioning you. You are participating in this discussion based on a question I asked in regards to a Christian point of view towards the Torah.

 

[PeteR]

@PeteR would you say that I am a part of Israel if I believe in Grace through faith in God's work to save me,?

Salvation only comes by grace through faith. Period. Full stop.

We are called to obedience after that as a means of showing God love and being sanctified (set apart). Maybe that is Apostolic instructions, maybe it is full Torah. Either way, we must walk as we are called.

You do you.

 

[Cap]

Salvation only comes by grace through faith. Period. Full stop.

We are called to obedience after that as a means of showing God love and being sanctified (set apart). Maybe that is Apostolic instructions, maybe it is full Torah. Either way, we must walk as we are called.

You do you.

OK I understand. I still would like to know, do you consider me a part of Israel based on your understanding of what Israel represent?

I am doing me.

Because what we are really talking about is who is the bride and who are the guests at the wedding.

 

[PeteR]

@Cap , I'm not the Judge and ultimately, my opinion doesn't matter. I can tell you some things that are significant in pointing me in the direction that the Father is leading me and my family.

Yeshua said, "19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

Which do you think the Bride would be doing? Would she be aiming at 'least in the kingdom?' Or, 'great in the kingdom?'

Revelation speaks multiple times of a specific group that has two very interesting traits. In fact, this group is so special that they garner 'special attention' from the Beast...

12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

14:12 Here is perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

15:3 And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!

20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (KJV)

The pairing of these two traits, faith in Yeshua and keeping the commandments of God, seems pretty important as I look at where this all goes. ​

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

If the Bride is 'making herself ready' she must be doing something. Based on the rest of these references in Revelation it makes sense to me to think that that 'something' is related to 'keeping the commandments of God.'

 

[Cap]

@PeteR I do appreciate your responses and do realize you are not the judge and who everyone is ultimately responsible towards. However, what we are talking about is commonality between believers. Which is what I am trying to figure out. The idea of brothers in Christ has a different twist when one starts seeing the wedding for what and who each person is within that focus. One is either a part of the bride or the guests, which does tend to seperate people.

I'm sure your realize that I can match your references to personally upkeeping the old covenant Laws with the new covenant of grace and mercy with God doing the work to save people. No one has yet explained the responsibility of a believer besides faith in the new covenant which is described in Jeremiah ,33.

Now here is were everyone gets confused in what I am trying to say. The Law is absolutely a necessarity How can one truly know what they were forgiven for if they don't know what they did. So all references to the Law are to be fulfilled in knowing where we have failed. That's why the law isf important, not so that we can fulfill the law but understand why and what we were forgiven for. The Law is within the being of the Son of God. The work, and the demonstration of faith in that work is believing that the Son of God has paid the sin for our failure to keep the Law and that is the work being talked about we are to do.

Faith in Christ to save us is the work we are to do. Understanding the Law helps us know exactly what we are being saved from.

Edit: The idea of offering sacrifices again under the Law is a whole different matter.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

When I point to Torah, I'm simply pointing in the same direction every prophet, every apostle and the Messiah Himself pointed. All of them pointed back to the foundation. God doesn't change, His Word doesn't change, the foundation doesn't change.

Just popping in for a moment. The foundation you’re referring to (Torah) was not the same as the original foundation for priesthood. The original foundation was a Melchizedek foundation. The Melchizedek was intended for all (the firstborn specifically) in Israel to be a priesthood before God. They messed that up with Aaron and the calf so revisions (changes) were made to facilitate a substitutionary shadow priesthood (the Levites). Quite a few things were added so that the newly created laity could wrap their minds around the idea of clean and unclean and righteous and unrighteous.
Numbers 16:3 is a prime passage for this. Korah is arguing for a Melchizedek priesthood and yet he’s arguing against God at this point. God very obviously supports his newly formed substitutionary priesthood and construct.

Some will point to Abel offering a sacrifice as proof of “Torah”. Check out the sacrifice. It’s a firstfruits sacrifice. Specifically a Melchizedek sacrifice. Someone else pointed out pre Sinai marriages that are anti Torah by righteous men. Others have mentioned the Noahide commands. All of these men were righteous under a Melchizedek covenant by their works/faith and yet would be unrighteous under a Sinai covenant because of these same works/faith.

The Sinai covenant was not the foundation that the New Testament was written on and is the worst example that God never changes. Cognitive dissonance at its finest IMO. The New Testament references to the Sinai Covenant was geared more towards recognizing where they were at and defining where they were going. The Sinai Covenant, as best I can tell, was the stopgap or bandaid that allowed unrighteous men to temporarily reconcile with their Creator until the exact moment that the Melchizedek (Christ) was foreordained to provide a living example of how the firstborn of each family was to fulfill their role before God.

I know of no other approach to explain/reconcile the Priesthood of Christ under a Melchizedek order rather than a Levitical one. If the Levitical priesthood was the epitome of perfection, then God could have quite easily revealed prophecy to suit so that Christ would have been born into the Aaronic priesthood. Umm. God didnt. Rather prophecy, Torah, and pre Torah is fulfilled rather obviously in Christ being born and establishing a Melchizedek covenant and Priesthood as the ultimate standard of fellowship/relationship with our Abba. Especially in light of the Torah requirements for those that minister with the holy things. Levite/Aaronic only upon pain of death.

I’ve yet to see or hear anyone comfortably make the Torah argument for a priesthood of non Levites. And yet thats exactly what Christ was and did. Christ - Torah observant? Perhaps, but only to the point that it didnt interfere with his role as High Priest of the Melchizedek order.

 

[Aussies]

Because what we are really talking about is who is the bride and who are the guests at the wedding.

Please don't take this wrong, but in my experience everybody claims to be the bride of Christ, or at least God's chosen people! It seems to be very rare to find someone who sees themselves as a guest rather than special and important so as to sit at the bridle table.

I tend to look at it this way, My parents are my parents, and always will be. Nothing will every change that. In a million years from now my mother will still be the one who gave birth to me and my father the one who gave me life in the first instance, and due to that they are worthy of my respect, gratitude and honor as should be shown by a son! It does not matter if there is any inheritance to come in the future, or if there is some personal benefit, what has already been given is enough and they are worthy of my love just for the fact that I exist.
So to, my God is my God and nothing will ever change that. What he has given me is more than I deserve! I don't seek some reward in the future and strive that I might gain something extra. Any gift given will be because of his love and mercy, not due to my flawed works. That does not mean that I don't try to do my best to please him, it just means that I cannot earn anything, not by means of law or acts of righteousness. His gifts are just that, gifts. On the other side if it should prove to be that no gift is given in the future, then that to, is OK. What I have right now is all I can control, the rest is up to him. So right now I will praise him and worship him purely out of love for him.

When it comes to the law, what did Jesus say was the greatest command? Was it not that we should love our God with our entire heart mind and soul. when the the rich young man came to Jesus and asked what should I do (Mat 19:16-24), Jesus instructed him in the basics of the law but even then there was more that he could do, give away all he had to the poor! So if we are seeking the law then are we also willing to go to that point?

To my mind the most important part of the Law is in harmony with the first of the ten commands given through Moses, We must not have another god against our Gods face!
Thus for me and my family we strive to remove any and all pagan teachings celebrations and understandings of scripture that have their foundation in false worship, in the worship of other gods. When it comes to the law, Christ was the only one who could keep it perfectly, and for that reason he realest us from the law and brought us under himself. That does not now mean that the law is in any way sin and thus if we choose to live by it that is fine, but only Christ will give us freedom from sin and that is something that, no matter what our works are, we can never accomplish without him.

 

[Cap]

Please don't take this wrong, but in my experience everybody claims to be the bride of Christ, or at least God's chosen people! It seems to be very rare to find someone who sees themselves as a guest rather than special and important so as to sit at the bridle table.

I tend to look at it this way, My parents are my parents, and always will be. Nothing will every change that. In a million years from now my mother will still be the one who gave birth to me and my father the one who gave me life in the first instance, and due to that they are worthy of my respect, gratitude and honor as should be shown by a son! It does not matter if there is any inheritance to come in the future, or if there is some personal benefit, what has already been given is enough and they are worthy of my love just for the fact that I exist.
So to, my God is my God and nothing will ever change that. What he has given me is more than I deserve! I don't seek some reward in the future and strive that I might gain something extra. Any gift given will be because of his love and mercy, not due to my flawed works. That does not mean that I don't try to do my best to please him, it just means that I cannot earn anything, not by means of law or acts of righteousness. His gifts are just that, gifts. On the other side if it should prove to be that no gift is given in the future, then that to, is OK. What I have right now is all I can control, the rest is up to him. So right now I will praise him and worship him purely out of love for him.

When it comes to the law, what did Jesus say was the greatest command? Was it not that we should love our God with our entire heart mind and soul. when the the rich young man came to Jesus and asked what should I do (Mat 19:16-24), Jesus instructed him in the basics of the law but even then there was more that he could do, give away all he had to the poor! So if we are seeking the law then are we also willing to go to that point?

To my mind the most important part of the Law is in harmony with the first of the ten commands given through Moses, We must not have another god against our Gods face!
Thus for me and my family we strive to remove any and all pagan teachings celebrations and understandings of scripture that have their foundation in false worship, in the worship of other gods. When it comes to the law, Christ was the only one who could keep it perfectly, and for that reason he realest us from the law and brought us under himself. That does not now mean that the law is in any way sin and thus if we choose to live by it that is fine, but only Christ will give us freedom from sin and that is something that, no matter what our works are, we can never accomplish without him.

I can understand what you are saying and can see three possibilities, accept were we each are and exist in that knowing we are saved, or strive to fulfill Laws that no one has been able to do, or rest in the work God has done for us and become overcomes as per His desire for us. Everyone that was selected for Gideon's army had something unique about them. The idea I have is that we each should try to hope in the same calling. There are rewards in heaven, is it wrong to work towards them? We all want to be the bride, we should help each other to try and figure out the best way to get there though God's guidance.

 

[rockfox]

was not the same as the original foundation for priesthood. The original foundation was a Melchizedek foundation. The Melchizedek was intended for all (the firstborn specifically) in Israel to be a priesthood before God.

Where do you get that idea?

 

[Cap]

https://www.gods-kingdom-ministries...ng-series/short-series/the-melchizedek-order/

 

[Pacman]

 

[Pacman]

Leviticus 19:35-37 NASB
'You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. [36] You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt. [37] You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the LORD.'

God would not be just to have a different set of "rules" for different groups of people. Or for a different time period. That would be the very definition of an unjust balance...

 

[PeteR]

@Cap thank you for your detailed explanation of your position.

Here is a simple illustration I have used before: I live in a small town and have a serious traffic ticket hanging over my head. The governor of my state sends his son to come drive through town and perfectly keep all the rules of the road, then pays my huge fine. After he leaves can I drive any way I want, or do the rules of the road still apply, only now I am freed from previous debt, have an example of how to drive correctly and have an advocate before the governor if I again mess up.

I just don't see anywhere in Scripture that the Law was done away with. The curse of the Law was nailed to the tree, but not the Law itself. Keeping God's instructions, according to Scripture, brings blessings, sanctification, righteousness and peace.

Blessings.

 

[Cap]

@Cap thank you for your detailed explanation of your position.

Here is a simple illustration I have used before: I live in a small town and have a serious traffic ticket hanging over my head. The governor of my state sends his son to come drive through town and perfectly keep all the rules of the road, then pays my huge fine. After he leaves can I drive any way I want, or do the rules of the road still apply, only now I am freed from previous debt, have an example of how to drive correctly and have an advocate before the governor if I again mess up.

I just don't see anywhere in Scripture that the Law was done away with. The curse of the Law was nailed to the tree, but not the Law itself. Keeping God's instructions, according to Scripture, brings blessings, sanctification, righteousness and peace.

Blessings.

I agree with you 100% that the Law has not been done away with. It is the foundation of our life with God. I accept your analogy but would change it a little. Let's say I am going 80 in a 70 mph zone. I get pulled over and the cop, or the judge at some point, gives me a warning out of mercy and tells me to go on my way but be careful. The cop, or judge has not changed the Law but showed mercy and grace towards me in its regard. I feel the compassion of the kindness and try to do good.

All judges know the law but they can provide mercy. The law never changes but out of love can be forgiven by the creator of that law.

The work is resting in the power of the creator to forgive.

 

[Cap]

Leviticus 19:35-37 NASB
'You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. [36] You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt. [37] You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the LORD.'

God would not be just to have a different set of "rules" for different groups of people. Or for a different time period. That would be the very definition of an unjust balance...

I am not suggesting a different set of rules for different people. They are the same rules, but once the rules had to be followed of our own will, which was established for the sole purpose to prove we can't and to show the price of what would eventually be paid. Now, the price for not following the rules has been paid. Same rules just different outcome.

There is work to be done. The work is learning how to enter that rest, not follow rules that we can never follow.

 

[Cap]

The Law of God and the Law of Moses are the same.

The question is has the penalty for not being able to follow them been paid or not.

 

[PeteR]

I agree with you 100% that the Law has not been done away with. It is the foundation of our life with God. I accept your analogy but would change it a little. Let's say I am going 80 in a 70 mph zone. I get pulled over and the cop, or the judge at some point, gives me a warning out of mercy and tells me to go on my way but be careful. The cop, or judge has not changed the Law but showed mercy and grace towards me in its regard. I feel the compassion of the kindness and try to do good.

All judges know the law but they can provide mercy. The law never changes but out of love can be forgiven by the creator of that law.

The work is resting in the power of the creator to forgive.

The mercy does not negate the law or even the penalty. It merely covers the penalty.

If you keep doing 80 in the 70, over and over and over, will the judge keep having mercy? Or, will he eventually have to enforce the law because you demonstrate a lack of respect for his instructions?