"Torah" from a Christian point of view.

[Cap]

Is following the "Torah", defined as observing the Laws as spelled out physically in the first five books of the Bible a requirement for salvation? Does it lead to the saving faith required? Or, is following "torah" defined as the whole Word of God, the Bible as a whole, a requirement for salvation? Does this lead to the saving faith required? And all of this from a Christian point of view.

I think this is an important discussion that should be laid out so that we all can get a better understanding of what each think is at the the base of our faith when it comes to the term Torah.

I am not saying anyone, or any view is wrong (and I find absolutely nothing wrong in any ones worshipping God they way the choose), I'm just trying to find out how many Christians here believe this is a requirement in their journey to find God. Because if I'm missing something I would like to find out what that is.

And also the commonality in the two views to establish better understanding.

 

[FollowingHim2]

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's it. That's salvation.

How you then choose to follow Him is up to you. And when following you may be led in some pretty interesting and different directions to others. That doesn't make either of you wrong, or either of you more saved than the other.

 

[Isaac]

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's it. That's salvation.

How you then choose to follow Him is up to you. And when following you may be led in some pretty interesting and different directions to others. That doesn't make either of you wrong, or either of you more saved than the other.

Ummm....YES AND AMEN!!!

Moderators: Now would be a perfect time to close this thread to further replies. @FollowingHim2 just wrapped it up.

 

[PeteR]

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Simply: Works don't save, but saving faith, works.

None of the Torah folk I know claim that Torah saves. All believe that it is the consistent everlasting standard revealed by God to His people. Define it as the first five books, or as the whole of Scripture. Either way, the first five are included... I tend to think that the first five are the foundation and nothing after can change or abolish what was originally given. The basis for everything the Apostles said or taught is in Torah. Nearly 1/3 of the apostolic writings is reference to or direct quotes of Moses with a strong dose of prophets. Ie., the context of the Apostolic writings is Moses.

Blessings.

 

[Dairyfarmer]

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's it. That's salvation.

How you then choose to follow Him is up to you. And when following you may be led in some pretty interesting and different directions to others. That doesn't make either of you wrong, or either of you more saved than the other.

Not a problem with what you said. The only thing I see is people think they believe this, then it is a free for all. They can do as they please and still get to heaven. There are other rules. To me this is where the Torah comes in.

 

[Mojo]

Not a problem with what you said. The only thing I see is people think they believe this, then it is a free for all. They can do as they please and still get to heaven. There are other rules. To me this is where the Torah comes in.

I agree, but I believe that James is sort of the primer on whether those folks are truly saved or not (thank you @PeteR). Those who do as they please are probably not headed to heaven anyway. It's ultimately up to God, but that whole thing about being known by our fruit inevitably comes into play.

IIRC, Luther and others disputed inclusion of James as canon. They thought it deemphasized grace. I disagree.

 

[rustywest4]

Yeshua was Torah walking.

 

[aineo]

The way I see it is that there is one way to heaven, and that is through the Son, but I am to live my life pleasing to Him today as a way to magnify His glory. I think the way He expects us to live has been defined in the Torah. My keeping of the Torah neither increases my odds of going to heaven nor does it decrease my odds if I don’t keep the Torah. My future in Heaven is in Christ only.

I think the Torah is a whole lot easier than most make it out to be though. As I see it, the Ten Commandments are a general summation of the Torah, and eight of these commandments (and all others) fall under the two greatest commandments.

Matthew 22:35 (WEB) One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him. 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 A second likewise is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."​

If I keep these two commandments above all else, all the rest should fall into line. To be certain, that doesn’t mean I will never sin. Though I try to live an upright and honorable life, I still make mistakes, but I am seeking to glorify Him more and more every day through my life according to His will.

 

[Cap]

Not a problem with what you said. The only thing I see is people think they believe this, then it is a free for all. They can do as they please and still get to heaven. There are other rules. To me this is where the Torah comes in.

This is not directed at you @Dairyfarmer, but statements in general to your comment.

I am trying to figure out who is the judge of whether someone is going the way of a 'free for all' or determining how they worship God as a the way being directed by Him to do so for them.

Shouldn't one observing a Torah worship be on the the same level as like tithing or praying?

Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matthew 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Matthew 6:3–4 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. wAnd your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Isn't honoring the Torah idea a personal thing?

I know that the verses are not specifically talking about the idea I am trying to put forth, but it does convey a position of worshiping or honoring God secretly. If someone wants to honor God through Torah observance, isn't that a personal thing?

 

[Isaac]

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Simply: Works don't save, but saving faith, works.

@PeteR , I couldn't agree with you more here. I'm curious of your stance and where you're at/coming from, so question...do you believe observing Torah IS the works that are being talked about?

And blessings to you as well, brother.

 

[Nikud]

Shouldn't one observing a Torah worship be on the the same level as like tithing or praying?

This statement doesn't make sense to me. Please clarify. Are you speaking of Torah observance, A Torah observant group worshiping Elohim, or worshiping Torah which is something Torah Observant believers don't do? I've never been to a Messianic or Hebrew roots service that was about worshiping Torah.

Money is not a tithe. Its a free will offering or a vow offering. God was specific about what a tithe was and that tithes are the inheritance of the Levite Priesthood. He gave all tithes to them.​

Remember I am a Charismatic as well, but I've been to Charismatic services that only Talked about the Holy Spirit. Prayed to the Holy Spirit. Prayed using the prayer language given by the Holy spirit (you mentioned about praying in secret) all service long. Not a single mention of God and only referencing Jesus as said this or that then a 45 minute rant about how the Holy spirit uses this or that. That is worshiping the Holy Spirit.

Here's a question along the same lines as the Torah observance question, Shouldn't one observing a Holy Spirit worship be on the same level as like tithing or praying?

Isn't honoring the Torah idea a personal thing?

Isn't honoring the Holy Spirit a personal thing?

I know that the verses are not specifically talking about the idea I am trying to put forth, but it does convey a position of worshiping or honoring God secretly. If someone wants to honor God through Torah observance, isn't that a personal thing?

I know that the verses in Matthew 6:3-6 are not specifically talking about the idea I am trying to put forth, but it does convey a position of worshiping or honoring God secretly. If someone wants to honor God through the Holy Spirit, isn't that a personal thing?

The fallacy in this line of thought is glaring. Especially when the lesson was about not trying to make yourself look righteous with displays of your works. Not that you shouldn't express your Faith in public.

Is it right just because you don't accept the way others believe and express their relationship with Yeshua to try and make them stop? To interpret scriptures in a way to justify telling togethers keep the way the worship God secret. If you yourself are not apply your interpretation to yourself and keeping the way you believe and worship secret and personal thing yet telling others to do so then your claiming to have moral standards or belief to which one's own behavior does not conform.

 

[Cap]

This statement doesn't make sense to me. Please clarify. Are you speaking of Torah observance, A Torah observant group worshiping Elohim, or worshiping Torah which is something Torah Observant believers don't do? I've never been to a Messianic or Hebrew roots service that was about worshiping Torah.

Money is not a tithe. Its a free will offering or a vow offering. God was specific about what a tithe was and that tithes are the inheritance of the Levite Priesthood. He gave all tithes to them.​

Remember I am a Charismatic as well, but I've been to Charismatic services that only Talked about the Holy Spirit. Prayed to the Holy Spirit. Prayed using the prayer language given by the Holy spirit (you mentioned about praying in secret) all service long. Not a single mention of God and only referencing Jesus as said this or that then a 45 minute rant about how the Holy spirit uses this or that. That is worshiping the Holy Spirit.

Here's a question along the same lines as the Torah observance question, Shouldn't one observing a Holy Spirit worship be on the same level as like tithing or praying?

Isn't honoring the Holy Spirit a personal thing?


I know that the verses in Matthew 6:3-6 are not specifically talking about the idea I am trying to put forth, but it does convey a position of worshiping or honoring God secretly. If someone wants to honor God through the Holy Spirit, isn't that a personal thing?

The fallacy in this line of thought is glaring. Especially when the lesson was about not trying to make yourself look righteous with displays of your works. Not that you shouldn't express your Faith in public.

Is it right just because you don't accept the way others believe and express their relationship with Yeshua to try and make them stop? To interpret scriptures in a way to justify telling togethers keep the way the worship God secret. If you yourself are not apply your interpretation to yourself and keeping the way you believe and worship secret and personal thing yet telling others to do so then your claiming to have moral standards or belief to which one's own behavior does not conform.

I really wish people would stop thinking I am trying to stop something or condemn something. I am trying to understand something. I really didn't want to get into an argument in this thread between those who believe in following a directive to fulfill Laws in the old covenant and those like me or maybe only me in this forum that see the Laws expressed in the old covenant to be followed in a higher order of understanding.

If God told me to walk with Him as Adam and Eve did in the beginning, naked would I be wrong if I did it in secret honoring Him or would I be wrong in trying to judge others for not doing what I do.

I also have been to charismatic churches that have gone off the deep end, in my opinion, but to each his own and I don't judge them.

When God revealed Himself to me many many years ago, I tried many things because I thought it would make me closer. Yes, I tried following the Torah as best I could because I thought it i would be loved more if I did it right. I honored and tried to do the festivals right, tried to eat the right foods, thought i needed to sleep in a tent in the back yard, many many things. I eventually came to the place where I realized i was just loved because God just choose to love me of no effort of mine.

And so that's the way I see it. I follow 'Torah', but in a spiritual sense. I follow it daily. I continually pray daily, every minute on some days, when things are hard. I pay attention to the moon phases just to be aware of the seasons and festivals for that month. I try and find the deeper meaning in all of it. I try many things.

So no I don't condemn anyone for what they believe, but I do find it limiting sometimes and I am looking for those who can show me how to live higher, at least for me.

I am also trying to figure out if must of the participants here follow this Torah and how the effects conversation here, especially when I get involved. I seem to cause a lot of people problems with my views.

 

[PeteR]

@PeteR , I couldn't agree with you more here. I'm curious of your stance and where you're at/coming from, so question...do you believe observing Torah IS the works that are being talked about?

And blessings to you as well, brother.

My experience in Christianity is that there is always a question about what the 'will of God' is. There is always a question about the exact ways to please the Father. When I came to an understanding that Torah applies to all Israel and I am part of Israel, then it must be for me. Then, boom, this us righteousness to 'walk in this.'

Honestly, Christendom keeps 75-80% of Torah while resisting where those very things come from. So, I find the Torah to be a clear articulation from the Father of how to be set apart, how to walk righteously, how to please the Father.

So, yes, Torah IS the works of righteousness prepared before for us to walk in.

 

[Cap]

My experience in Christianity is that there is always a question about what the 'will of God' is. There is always a question about the exact ways to please the Father. When I came to an understanding that Torah applies to all Israel and I am part of Israel, then it must be for me. Then, boom, this us righteousness to 'walk in this.'

Honestly, Christendom keeps 75-80% of Torah while resisting where those very things come from. So, I find the Torah to be a clear articulation from the Father of how to be set apart, how to walk righteously, how to please the Father.

So, yes, Torah IS the works of righteousness prepared before for us to walk in.

But this is a view for you right Peter? It doesn't necessarily have to be the same view for others right? I am a part of Israel by faith and I agree that I follow Torah however spiritual it might be and find that I am loved just as much. So this is the problem it seems, I live by the faith in God's love for me and you seem to live by faith in your works that God loves you.

Your statements suggest that if one doesn't follow Torah the way you do they are not apart of Israel. Can you see were the judgement in this could lead someone to think they are not proper before God?

 

[Isaac]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I appreciate it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I apply your belief that Torah is the works described, then I come to the conclusion that one cannot show you their faith without this work, observing Torah. As you said, and I agree,

Simply: Works don't save, but saving faith, works.

, but without this work, I would assume, based on your beliefs, that one who does not observe Torah lacks the work that should be evident of a having a saving faith. That's the logical outcome I think I would come to if I shared that belief that observing Torah is the work manifested by faith.

I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter as I am curious and intrigued as I have always thought of the "works" being described differently. Personally, I have always thought the work manifested by faith as the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control) , loving your brothers, etc. The verses before James 2:18 ("Show me your faith apart from works...), I think, point to this. James 2:15-17 (If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.) I take that as giving an example of the type of work that a genuine, saving faith will manifest...which, to me is the fruit of the spirit.

This makes me think on Galatians 5:6 (For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor circumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.) I guess I see the faith-manifested works as being works of love for others, especially our brothers and sisters...which in turn, is how we show our love and devotion to our Father in heaven, thus showing evidence of our faith.

*Forgive me for probably not formatting the referenced scripture properly. At least I'm pretty sure it's not.

 

[PeteR]

But this is a view for you right Peter? It doesn't necessarily have to be the same view for others right? I am a part of Israel by faith and I agree that I follow Torah however spiritual it might be and find that I am loved just as much. So this is the problem it seems, I live by the faith in God's love for me and you seem to live by faith in your works that God loves you.

Your statements suggest that if one doesn't follow Torah the way you do they are not apart of Israel. Can you see were the judgement in this could lead someone to think they are not proper before God?

@Cap you do you. I was clear that this is what the Father has taught me through experiencing both sides. It is how I understand it and how Scripture, the whole counsel of God's Word, points. To me, where I was no longer makes sense without embracing the foundation of Torah. If that offends you, I am sorry. Maybe, just maybe, that is the Father pushing you to dig deeper.. If not, don't enter the discussions about that element.

When I have time later, I'd like to discuss the 'part of Israel' statement in another thread.

You asked a question in the OP. I answered with my understanding and experience.

Blessings.

 

[PeteR]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I appreciate it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I apply your belief that Torah is the works described, then I come to the conclusion that one cannot show you their faith without this work, observing Torah. As you said, and I agree, , but without this work, I would assume, based on your beliefs, that one who does not observe Torah lacks the work that should be evident of a having a saving faith. That's the logical outcome I think I would come to if I shared that belief that observing Torah is the work manifested by faith.

I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter as I am curious and intrigued as I have always thought of the "works" being described differently. Personally, I have always thought the work manifested by faith as the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control) , loving your brothers, etc. The verses before James 2:18 ("Show me your faith apart from works...), I think, point to this. James 2:15-17 (If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.) I take that as giving an example of the type of work that a genuine, saving faith will manifest...which, to me is the fruit of the spirit.

This makes me think on Galatians 5:6 (For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor circumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.) I guess I see the faith-manifested works as being works of love for others, especially our brothers and sisters...which in turn, is how we show our love and devotion to our Father in heaven, thus showing evidence of our faith.

*Forgive me for probably not formatting the referenced scripture properly. At least I'm pretty sure it's not.

Blessings. The fruits of the Spirit stand on something. They are not without concrete foundation whether we recognize or acknowledge the basis. When Yeshua said, 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself,' He wasn't making up some new esoteric spiritualized feel good faith deal. He was quoting Torah. Directly. And, He was answering the question, 'what is the greatest commandment?' He went on to say, 'on these two commands hang ALL of the Torah and the prophets.'

The point, obedience to Torah is loving Him. I know you know all this.

Christianity has, for milennia, kept about 80% of Torah, but denied the foundation. Today, Abba seems to be awakening people all over the planet, from all backgrounds and denominations to the depth of Torah. Is thus awakening messy? Sure. Are there 'Torah terrorists?' Yep, been there, done that.

I believe He is asking all of us to dig deeper. I try not to force my opinions on others, but the mere discussion of what Scripture actually says can spark some pretty interesting responses. I try to let the Word, not my opinion, be the offender.

This site is a valuable place with many who love do dig and desire to be challenged by the Word.

 

[Isaac]

Interesting. And again, I appreciate you sharing your understanding and experience. No offense here. Given your experience and understanding, I'd say you'd be in the wrong to not observe Torah the way you do. Torah away, my brother!

As for your previous post, I agree with most of what you say, I just don't think I come to the same understanding as you and disagree with a few minor details. None of which remove you from being my brother. Curious, do you feel the same? Does the fact that I don't (currently, you never know where God will lead. ) observe that remaining 20% give you evidence of a lack of faith as it's not manifesting the works that, to your understanding, it should?

As for the fruits of the Spirit standing on something, I always thought the foundation for those fruits in one's life was the Spirit residing in them, for without that, they cannot exist.

I believe He is asking all of us to dig deeper. I try not to force my opinions on others, but the mere discussion of what Scripture actually says can spark some pretty interesting responses. I try to let the Word, not my opinion, be the offender.

This site is a valuable place with many who love do dig and desire to be challenged by the Word.

Couldn't agree more. And I for one appreciate the manner in which you engage.

 

[PeteR]

If you believe Yeshua came in the flesh, is the Messiah and is Elohim (God) then we are brothers. Maybe we don't see eye to eye on minor stuff... so what?. In fact, if we agreed on everything, our discussions would be rather boring.

Yeah, we have fellowship. Pursue truth. Pursue the Father. Remain open to learning more.

Peace.

 

[Isaac]

If you believe Yeshua came in the flesh, is the Messiah and is Elohim (God) then we are brothers.

Check. Check. And check, baby!!! I'm confused though because it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you're saying two different things when you say this and previously say this

So, yes, Torah IS the works of righteousness prepared before for us to walk in.

when the works are the evidence of our faith. If I believe Torah observance is the evidential works of faith, I would come to the conclusion that those who don't observe Torah have no evidence of their faith. I think that's where I have a hard time following you or understanding...and thus disagree on the "works" portion of you referenced here

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Simply: Works don't save, but saving faith, works.