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TONGUES?

DeeAnn

DeeAnn

Member
Real Person
Watch out! You might be opening a can of worms that's as big as plural marriage itself.

I personally think that it should fall under 1st John 4:1-4 which says to test the spirits. If that spirit which is speaking the tongue is found to be from the Holy Spirit, then we cannot doubt that it is true. If it is tested and found to be false, then it does not glorify God, nor does it edify the body. If you would like numbers on how many tested tongues are true vs. false, I could forward you a few things.

No one that I know personally who prays in tongues has responded positively when I say that tongues should be tested. I never say that they're all fake or all real, all good or all bad. They should all be tested. Conveniently, for those who have tried to discredit me, they say, "Don't believe her. She thinks polygamy is biblical."
 
DeAnn, I love fishing, so opening worm cans is kosher by me :lol:

Oh Paul LOL
 
Alright, I'll stop if it is making anyone uncomfortable. Although I do come from a background (neocharismatic) that has the type of instruction as shown in that video, so I did feel somewhat ok about putting it up there and it was intended as a joke and not as instruction. And we do have some history with a testing ministry (don't forget that discernment of spirits is on the list as well as tongues) that keeps records of the percentages/results of those times when the gift of tongues was tested and what the results of those testing sessions reveal about the nature of tongues as they are most widely used and applied by today's believer. The results are not for the faint hearted.

This is an interesting topic for me, but probably not in the way that you are thinking. More along the lines of the belief that regardless of the place that tongues are used, prayer closet or public gathering, that the biblical definition of edification cannot be accomplished without understanding, so in or out of the closet is held in the same regard for me. I also cannot find anywhere in the bible that supports anything except the tongue being a known human language, so out goes the I don't know what I am actually saying part of tongues that our friends tell us. Or even the concept or example or instruction about prayer in a tongue. I see praying in the spirit and speaking in tongues, but not praying in tongues. However, I do see speaking in tongues with interpretation as equivalent to prophecy, as described by Peter in Acts.
In a nutshell, regardless of all the above rambling, I don't see today's display of tongues to be anything at all like the tongues that occured during or at pentecost.

Maybe I should stop, get back to work and actually write out a good response tonight.

Wait, Wait! I also do not believe in baptism in the spirit as a second work of grace or as empowerment of service, or agree with the concept innerant prophecy being no big deal either. Thought that I would put that out there since I had already breached the matrix.
 
I totally disagree with the way many people speak in tongues in the middle of a worship or prayer service. I do not see that as being Biblical if it is not with interpretation. Every time I am praying in tongues it is in private and it is when I am at a loss for words. It is something that I very seldom do.
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for {us} with groanings too deep for words (Romans 8:26, NASB)
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I haven't spoken with many other people about their experiences with this type of intercession, but I know that my father sometimes has this happen to him as well. In fact, he didn't even ask for the gift - it just started happening to him sometimes. He literally groans in a very deep way - like he's birthing something.

For me, I probably sound like many of the people you hear in churches. I have no idea what I am saying, but when I am in this time of prayer I am at a loss for words and it seems to me that His Spirit is helping me.
 
Awwww man...they deleted the original post and the you tube link? :roll:

I thought we all are non-judgemental here? What about my right to laugh at jibber jabber?

:lol:
 
Paul,

The concepts where tied together directly by Paul (the apostle) in 1 Cor 14:14. If I pray in a tongue my spirit prays. In that whole section if he is talking about his spirit praying its talking about praying in tongues. He admits he does not understand it, then in the next verse he says that he will still do it. Later he says he thanks God more than anyone that he has tongues.

DeeAnn is definitely dead on saying that they, like every gift, should be tested.

I dunno about weather it can happen in anything other than a known human language, but I know records from the Azuza street mission had a rather huge list of known languages they occurred in, and those seemed to happen a lot like Pentecost, where they where speaking in tongues in an open service with non-believers around and a multilingual non believers and one of the speakers was suddenly speaking in a foreign language known to the unbeliever.

I have seen a lot of weak or weird attempts at speaking in tongues, but I have heard accounts of pentecostalesque tongues recently and seen some things like it. Discernment has been hugely neglected in charismatic circles though as they often don't take kindly to criticism of any kind and they don't often do any church discipline. Obviously the hints of gifts in such places are going to be immature shadows.
 
This is a long story, so all I will do is a nickel summary at this point, ;)
but here goes...

Some number of years ago, when I was doing a radio talk show, I had occasion to "run into" (on a couple of different shows, and later in person) a fellow who did "reverse speech" analysis. He would record various things - typically from news stories and quotes, or things like political speeches -- and play them backwards.

The claim was that the speaker would often speak "truth" in reverse, even when they were lying through their teeth otherwise. He had many quite convincing examples; one I recall in particular was the famous Bill Clinton quote, "I did not have sex with that woman" -- where the reverse speech said something quite blunt, and obviously crude, as well as contradictory.

On one show I asked him about speaking in tongues. He proceeded to answer that he had been very interested in that topic as well, and done quite a bit of recording and study. We talked about it on-air at some length.

The bottom line was that he felt some aspects of the phenomenon were real, but that the great majority of churches and services where he had seen it (about 80%, IIRC) were disconcerting - to say the least. They were, in reverse, often filled with clearly audible praises to Satan, and other similar invocations.

This particular testimony helped clarify Paul's warnings, IMO. I am mindful of the need for interpretation, at a minimum.
 
Actually, 1 Cor 14:14 offers some insight to this too. "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth," Who's spirit? Pauls Spirit. Certainly the gift of tongues itself is given by the Holy Spirit, but the usage comes from ones own spirit. It is actually not too surprising if so much of the prayer in those meetings was of diabolical bent.

Er, perhaps I have a low view of many church goers spiritual bent... Oh well.
 
Paul not the apostle said:
I also cannot find anywhere in the bible that supports anything except the tongue being a known human language, so out goes the I don't know what I am actually saying part of tongues that our friends tell us.
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Actually, we only have one context where we know for a fact tongues were understood in Scripture - Acts 2. In 1 Corinthians 14, there is an interesting verse which says that "He who speaks in tongues, speaks to God, for no man understands him, but he speaks mysteries in the Spirit". I believe that where it says "no man understands him" is pretty clear, and furthermore, "speaking mysteries in the Spirit" further supports this idea, does it not?

Paul not the apostle said:
Or even the concept or example or instruction about prayer in a tongue. I see praying in the spirit and speaking in tongues, but not praying in tongues.
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Actually, 1 Corinthians 14 starts with telling us that when one speaks in tongues, one speaks to God - that is prayer. The rest of the chapter confirms that praying in the spirit is the exact equivalent of praying in tongues. Paul uses chiliasms to present this truth very clearly in a few verses, and confirms it when he asks how can the [guests] say "amen" to your thanksgiving when you are speaking/praying in tongues before the Church?[/quote]

Paul not the apostle said:
In a nutshell, regardless of all the above rambling, I don't see today's display of tongues to be anything at all like the tongues that occured during or at pentecost.
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I see Biblical tongues being used all the time. What bothers me are churches that do not allow tongues to be spoken at all, going directly against Paul's instructions: "forbid not the speaking in tongues"

Paul not the apostle said:
Wait, Wait! I also do not believe in baptism in the spirit as a second work of grace or as empowerment of service, or agree with the concept innerant prophecy being no big deal either. Thought that I would put that out there since I had already breached the matrix.
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I do too, but with one caveat. I see the initial evidence of receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit as speaking in tongues. Peter believed this too (Acts 10) - this is how he knew that they had received the Gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
I agree, DaPastor.

DaPastor said:
Paul not the apostle said:
In a nutshell, regardless of all the above rambling, I don't see today's display of tongues to be anything at all like the tongues that occured during or at pentecost.
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I see Biblical tongues being used all the time. What bothers me are churches that do not allow tongues to be spoken at all, going directly against Paul's instructions: "forbid not the speaking in tongues"
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This concerns me as well. However, there people that "teach" how to "pray in tongues"... and that, in no way, should be taken as the real thing. One shouldn't reject the real, nor should one accept the fake.

DaPastor said:
Paul not the apostle said:
Wait, Wait! I also do not believe in baptism in the spirit as a second work of grace or as empowerment of service, or agree with the concept innerant prophecy being no big deal either. Thought that I would put that out there since I had already breached the matrix.
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I do too, but with one caveat. I see the initial evidence of receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit as speaking in tongues. Peter believed this too (Acts 10) - this is how he knew that they had received the Gift of the Holy Spirit.
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I find this best summarized like this. There is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit... and there is the outpouring. Indwelling is always there... outpouring comes and goes... and has defining moments. This can be seen in the statement that "the power was present for Him to heal them" when speaking of Jesus. Also, this can be seen in demonic possession. The demon is indwelt but not constantly "outpoured". It "seizes" the person when it desires.
 
This is good stuff, although I disagree with some of the comments, as you have disagreed with mine, no problem. I don't have time to respond for a few days, but I appreciate the non aggressive dialogue. I will put something up when I have time, it might be a week.

paul
 
Paul not the apostle said:
I appreciate the non aggressive dialogue.
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Yes, it's good to have nice, calm discussions where we may not agree, but we can get there... or at least to an understanding, together.


Psst, guys, looks like he's fallen for it. Come at him from the left. I'll jump him from behind.
 
DaPastor's approach to tongues is very close to what I feel also and have experienced.

I do not think that the Holy Spirit always brings tongues, but it often happens. Many including myself were raised to avoid the idea. However, just like my ideas about marriage, I have had to re-evaluate my history, training, and etc. to grow in the Lord.

I would like to add that some of the fear of tongues is based on the false conception that it is not possible to have an actual relationship and experience with God. There seems to be such a desire to avoid emotion in our relationship to God that we permit very little. The Holy Spirit's presence is not always an emotional event and probably should not be just emotion. However, a problem with emotion can block God's presence. We have probably all heard someone say that salvation is not based on emotion but on Christ's sacrifice. Balance that fact with the fact that emotion will not ruin your relationship with God.

Of course many things can be faked. That is sad but not the deciding factor in our own relationship to God.
 
I have had some very interesting experiences with tongues, though I do not personally have the gift. When a person, by the Spirit, speaks in tongues it is clearly not an earthly language. I am certain that there are fakes, as Satan always tries to discredit the things of God with false copycats. However, there are true tongues that are of God and are powerful.

Some people believe that if someone does not speak in tongues, then they did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is not true, as I did not speak in tongues when I was baptized in the Spirit. I got what I call 'holy laughter'. When the person praying that I receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit laid hands on me, I 'fell out' in the Spirit and began laughing hysterically. It felt as though someone was tickling me in the ribs as my parents used to do when I was a child, though no one was touching me. Two other people came up and touched me as I was rolling on the floor laughing and they immediately fell out and had the same experience. I laughed so hard and for so long that I began having difficulty catching my breath and then just as soon as I said, "I can't take it anymore.” it immediately stopped. It was after that experience that I began to see with new Spiritual eyes and truly hear from God. God showed me that speaking in tongues is sufficient, but not necessary to confirm the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit is necessary for one to have any real power in their lives. As Joyce Meyer teaches though, we have to get refilled each day. If one does not have the baptism of the Spirit they will not have the true power of God to do the work that God sent them here to do and will never truly understand the deeper things of God.

Be blessed,

Ray
 
Please seek Him for this! I can't begin to describe the feeling of being filled - but it is awesome and holy and wonderful. This will spark a living daily relationship with God that will forever change you. It is a gift that Jesus wants you to have, for He said it was better for Him that He leave - so that He could send us His Spirit... and He commanded His followers to wait and pray for it to happen. In my experience, this gift is often given during extended times of prayer and worship at altar services.


I want to add here, about the waiting bit - there is a relational aspect to our interactions with the Lord. Most of our personal growth and maturity happens as a process of time. Very rarely does something happen the very instant we pray for it (thank God when it does!). I think God is interested to know how much we really want Him. And what is the most valuable commodity a mortal has? Time. Spend it with Him in private and public worship and prayer.
 
I once sung with a couple the very first time I spoke in tounges. We prayed for it. I still sometimes speak in toungs, usualy alone. I like it :D And sometimes I think my cubords are stock full of cans of worms :mrgreen:
 
DrRay777 said:
Some people believe that if someone does not speak in tongues, then they did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is not true, as I did not speak in tongues when I was baptized in the Spirit. I got what I call 'holy laughter'. When the person praying that I receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit laid hands on me, I 'fell out' in the Spirit and began laughing hysterically. It felt as though someone was tickling me in the ribs as my parents used to do when I was a child, though no one was touching me. Two other people came up and touched me as I was rolling on the floor laughing and they immediately fell out and had the same experience. I laughed so hard and for so long that I began having difficulty catching my breath and then just as soon as I said, "I can't take it anymore.” it immediately stopped. It was after that experience that I began to see with new Spiritual eyes and truly hear from God. God showed me that speaking in tongues is sufficient, but not necessary to confirm the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit is necessary for one to have any real power in their lives. As Joyce Meyer teaches though, we have to get refilled each day. If one does not have the baptism of the Spirit they will not have the true power of God to do the work that God sent them here to do and will never truly understand the deeper things of God.

Be blessed,

Ray
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I understand what you are saying, however, I have prayed for hundreds to receive the BHS, and everyone of them spoke in tongues when they received it, which goes along with the Scriptural examples. I have seen people receive laughter before or after receiving the BHS, so it has nothing to do with being filled - just immeasurably influenced - Psalm 127 - IMHO.
 
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