Tongues

[Paul not the apostle]

Is there a link on here about tongues? I have some questions for the people who do speak in tongues. Our church claims that tongues are not promoted, but it is listed on the homepage of the church that "Speaking in tongues is an evidence that the gift of the Holy Spirit has been received." Not one of the other gifts is mentioned. Also, the pastors wife came to my wife and said that God told her to come and talk to her about tongues. Two other women are telling her that she is "really missing out" on the experience and that if she does not, she might be "quenching the Spirit". We kind of feel like it is promoted.

Is there any link? Especially pertaining to any scripture that uses tongues in personal prayer? Or any scripture that expressly shows that praying in the spirit means praying in tongues? If anyone on here has experience with this and knows the scripture that they base this on, I would greatly appreciate it. I am not being sarcastic, I really would like to talk to you about this, it is important to me. Our friends that do this seem to get upset if we have questions about it, even though they seem to want us to do it. I feel safer talking about this on here because I don't have to feel like you are mad at me when we are taking the offering together next Sunday. So thanks in advance if you have the link for a BF discussion, or if you can lay it out for me.

 

[Mark C]

Our fellowship went through a thorough study of the topic years ago, Paul. I see the various references frequently, but don't have an index of them at hand yet. I'll try to take a look for a few later.

I remember the conclusions, however - and the cautions. Paul talks often of such ("though I speak with tongues of men and angels, and have not love..." comes immediately to mind from I Cor. 13, of course) The conclusion that we agreed upon was that public (for edification) speaking in tongues WITHOUT a corresponding interpretation was a requirement (and this, too, is from Paul, but I can't remember enough of the verse to find it yet).

I also remember another issue which concerned me greatly a few years ago. There was a frequent guest on the talk-show circuit who popularized "reverse speech" as a method of identifying liars. He would play the same quote from well-known politicians forward and backward, and it was often shocking to hear the contrast. (The "I did not have sex with that woman" audio, for example, was quite memorable backwards.) Other quotes seemed to reveal the politician's knowledge that he was lying, but expected the rubes to believe it. Convincing stuff.

Anyway, a host on the network where I did my show once asked him about speaking in tongues. He responded at length, and basically indicated that he had done a whole study of recordings in various churches where the practice occurred. And a shocking number (well over half) of them contained clear praises to Satan, and other demonic forces, by name, when played backwards. I concluded that it was VERY important to know Who you served before "channeling" anything just because you felt pressure to conform to a "gift" that may have more than one source. I'm sure that "by their fruits ye shall know them" still applies.


Blessings,

Mark

 

[DrRay777]

Paul,

I will not claim to be the leading authority on this issue, but I do have quite a bit of experience in this area so I will comment. There is a wrong doctrine that is found in many ‘Spirit-filled’ churches today, as I have seen. They say that speaking in tongues is necessary in order to confirm the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This wrong line of thinking came from a man named Smith Wigglesworth, who was called the modern day apostle. He was a very powerful man of God and thousands were saved, healed and many resurrected through him. He lived in the late 1800’s to early 1900’s. One of the things I read in his writings was that he believed that if someone did not speak in tongues, then they did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Even though he never actually joined the movement, he was the source of the modern Pentecostal movement. Smith Wigglesworth was right about many things, but wrong about this one and the people who followed him picked up this error and have continued to propagate it.

One of the reasons I believe that God did NOT give me the gift of tongues and I did not speak in tongues when I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, is so that I can speak against this wrong belief. Speaking in tongues is a sure sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but it is not the only sign. Therefore, it is sufficient, but not necessary. I got what people call Holy laughter when I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. What it felt like to me was when my parents tickled me as a child. It felt as if someone was tickling me and I laughed hysterically as I rolled on the ground. No one was touching me though. A couple of people came and did touch me during the episode and they fell over laughing uncontrollably as well. It was a wonderful experience, but when my throat began to hurt from all the laughing and when I finally managed to say, “I can’t take it anymore.” It stopped immediately. God will never overcome our free will. The people who prayed for me to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit laid hands on me over and over again trying to ‘impart’ tongues to me, but they never came. These people kept saying over and over to just let it come out and I tried, but nothing happened.

Speaking in tongues is overrated and I believe often done more in the flesh than in the Holy Spirit, (which would support what Mark said about the recordings being played backward not sounding too much like God). There was obviously a problem for the early church as well, which is why Paul wrote what he did on the subject of the spiritual gifts, including tongues. I like to think of I Corinthians chapters 12-14 as a sandwich. Chapter 12 is one slice of bread and describes the gifts of the Holy Spirit, (not to be confused with the ministry gifts from Jesus as laid out in Ephesians chapter 4, though there is some overlap). Chapter 14 is the other slice of bread and outlines the operation of these gifts in the congregation, so that every thing is done in order and unbelievers do not come into the church and see everyone just speaking in tongues and think they are all crazy, etc. However, chapter 13 is the meat and tells of ‘a more excellent way’ than all of this and that is LOVE. You see even if we have all the gifts, but fail to be obedient to God and treat our fellow man, (who is made in His image) with the proper respect; those gifts will do us no good in the end. I believe there are far too many disobedient and carnal ‘tongue-talking’ Christians on the face of the planet. What I like to rather see as evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a change in a person’s character so that they look more like Jesus.

I will step out on a limb here and say that the people who are going off about tongues with you and your wife are probably not that ‘Christ-like’, otherwise they would not be shoving the thing down your throat so much. My advice is to pray about it. If God wants you to speak in tongues, then He will see to it that you do. However, I would say that it is much more important that you and your family learn to obey God quickly in everything and treat even your enemies with proper respect, but especially be good to the brethren, (which are obedient Christians, not just someone who claims the title and does not do walk the walk). This is love and will profit you much more than any tongues. Tongues have their place and I have seen them operate powerfully, but a lot of what the church does today is not what God originally intended to be done in this area.

I have a teaching on the doctrine of baptisms which covers the baptism of the Holy Spirit that may help. I also cover the gifts in my other teachings, such as ‘Christianity 101’. You can get them off my web site at http://www.perfectchristian.110mb.com or http://perfectchristian.hostrator.com, (no www in the last address).

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray

 

[Tlaloc]

Well, I can speak in tongues, and can add a bit here for that reason.

I almost exclusively use the ability in personal or immediate family prayer, and very rarely as an outreach. When I was immature and younger I used it in a church setting occasionally, but there are heavy restrictions on that and as I grow I more and more see its a bad idea in general.

In personal prayer and meditation it doesn't function something I don't understand, contrarily it is usually allegorical songs which I can understand through translation, and it very often deals with theological issues I can't seem to figure out otherwise. Of course I check everything by scripture no mater what, but such a method of prayer has been a massive boon to me. If I'm ahead for my age at all, that is why.

1 Corinthians 14:15 confirms personal usage "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. "

Outreach is the highest purpose of tongues, and its purest purpose is in speaking the gospel in languages you don't actually know. I know of people that have done that, but I have only come to a second best thusfar in my life. There was an odd time I was talking to a person of intense spiritual power all through a night, after I endured a great deal of sparring we got to a point of deep conversion. At one point he had said how he can see through all these charismatics speaking in tongues, and how false it was. Fool as I am, I chose to use my ability all out. He watched and stood back and said that that was totally different. After that we continued to talk and I was able to talk seriously about Christ with him.

The original occourance of tongues is in outreach and it is explicitly confirmed again in 1 Corinthians 14:22, so this use there is no doubt about. "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."


Like any gift, tongues is nearly useless in its immature form. It isn't bad, but its useless. Short lines of repetition or other such things. Like any gift it has a corrupt form as well, and I would say pretty safely that most of what you see in churches is either immature or corrupt. I hate to say it but seeing it used plainly against scripture there is probably quite a lot that is outright corrupt per Marks negative channelling reference.

Paul, you said it well when you pointed out that not one other gift was mentioned. Ray was in essence right when he said it was overrated, but the reality is much more dangerous. Its underrated, and people think any Christian should be able to do it, people play with it and take it lightly and treat it like a trifle. Its the ability to give you're words away to God, and what God says is serious, if you don't carefully give you'reself to God you will inevitably give you're words to the devil.

 

[DrRay777]

I agree with Jair 100%. It was obviously an issue for the Corinthian church and why Paul addressed it in those verses. I have seen tongues used properly both in and outside of a church setting. It is very powerful, but as Paul said - desire the gifts, but PERSUE love. It is the more excellent way. Tongues and most of the gifts will cease when Jesus comes back, but until then they are very helpful when used properly as Jair said. Much of what we see unfortunately in the so-called 'Spirit-filled' churches is corrupted by the flesh, or worse direct demonic gibberish to mock the true gift of God. My recommendation is still to continue to focus on the love walk, which is most likely why you have an issue that caused you to start this thread.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray