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TIME TO MOVE ALONG

Doc

Doc

Member
Real Person
It is rare that I use the 'bully pulpit' of my role as an administrator of this group to address a concern, but recently some words, comments and posts that I have observed online have raised up my dander. I feel compelled to address these issues. Some of you may not like or appreciate my views on these matters, so I am giving you fair warning.

I have been involved with the ministry of Biblical Families for nearly five years now. For me, some of the people I have met and have come to know personally are more than friends to me; they are family. You can talk about ME all you want; frankly, I could care less what you say about me. But, when you start talking about my FAMILY, then, my friend, you have just stirred me up!

I have observed recent posts that have accused people associated with Biblical Families with the following:

-Wife stealing - actively pursuing a spouse who is already in a covenant relationship.
-'Swinging' - sexual activity among couples and families outside of the Biblical bounds of marriage.
-Underage marriage - pursuit of relationships with minors

Now, the rub is that these accusations never seem to address any one person in particular. It always seems to be 'those BF people', 'that Christian ministry that deals with plural marriage', or 'the Biblical Families group'. I don't like it when accusations are made against an entire group of people, especially if the basis of those accusations comes as a result of the STUPID actions of STUPID individuals. However, it may shock you to read the following from me....

I don't blame the accusers.

"Why not?" you may ask. Frankly, because even though the accusations are apalling to me, there is some reason that they are made, probably because there is some truth to them. I think it should go without saying that Biblical Families in no way endorses, encourages or promotes any of these activities. That does not mean, however, that some people who associate THEMSELVES with Biblical Families have not pursued them.

When new people find out about plural marriage, they may come from a variety of backgrounds, worldviews, and motivations. And though it may be a weakness on the part of Biblical Families, when we are introduced to new people, we tend to take people at their word, and show them trust until they give us reason NOT to trust them. Through the process of communication through newsletters, the forums, retreats and other get-togethers with new people and 'veterans', we hope to achieve some type of 'vetting' process.

Is it perfect? Nope. I wish it was, but it's not. Sometimes trust is violated. Sometimes the motives of people are not what they appear. Sometimes people are not even the people they say they are.

Overall, however, the process has allowed for the creation of a fellowship of believers across denominational lines that have a common interest in plural marriage. Some of the most precious times of worship and fellowship I have experienced in my ministry career have occurred at Biblical Families retreats.

Still, no group or place is perfect, not even Heaven. God had to evict Lucifer from there.

So let me set the record straight for you, just so that you know where Biblical Families stands, and then you can decide if this is the right place for you:

Wife Stealing - If you think that is okay to pursue, 'hit on' or try to 'pick up' a married woman, you have a serious problem. There is no way on God's green earth you can justify that from a Biblical perspective. It is adultery, plain and simple. If this is you, then may I suggest to you that it is TIME TO MOVE ALONG.

Swinging - It is hard for me to even wrap my brain around this one, but there are actually 'Christian' groups who endorse 'swinging'. Biblical Families is NOT one of them. For those of you who have lived in a cave since the 70s, swinging involves sharing sexual partners between married couples. You might respond by saying that its really nobody's business who you have sex with. Fine. Believe what you want, but the Bible has set up specific guidelines for sexual relations, and a belief in plural marriage has not given you 'carte blanche' into a new world of unbridled sexual promiscuity. If this is you, then may I suggest to you that it is TIME TO MOVE ALONG.

Underage Marriage - Why are we still even dealing with this issue? I know that there are a variety of viewpoints out there that may view various ages as 'acceptable'. I respect your opinions on the matter. However, as a policy, Biblical Families has stated on several occasions that we consider the age of 18 to be the minimum age for anyone to consider a covenant for marriage. We came to this conclusion due to a variety of factors, but the main one was THE PROTECTION OF BOTH PARTIES. First, you are not responsible enough to make that kind of decision in your life until at least 18. I know, some of you will say, "But...." But nothing. You know it's true! Second, there are laws on the books that will get you thrown in the pokey for having any kind of sexual relations with someone under the age of 18, whether you consider yourself 'married' or not. I know someone I deeply cared about who found himself caught in this trap, and guess where he is? JAIL. So, if this is you, and you want to pursue underage marriage, please understand that Biblical Families is NOT the place for you to hang your hat, and it is TIME TO MOVE ALONG.

Well, I think I have said and vented quite enough for now. I love the ministry of Biblical Families, not so much for what it believes, though that is important, but for the fellowship and comradeship that it has been in my life. I do not want to see my 'family' destroyed by false accusations, but even more importantly, I don't want it to be destroyed by 'true' ones either.

It is time for some soul-searching, my friends. Why are you a part of Biblical Families? If you believe in or are looking at plural marriage, and are looking for a place of sincere fellowship, spiritual support, Berean study, and honest advice, then you have found a family. If you have any other motivations, such as those I listed above or any others, then may I offer a final word of advice to you as I bid you goodbye: it is TIME TO MOVE ALONG.

Blessings,

Doc Burkhart
 
Nice, blunt and spot on for the first two.

On underage marriage, remember the main scriptural command of relevance is to obey the law, and law varies greatly around the world, we don't all live in whatever corner of America you grew up in. Here for instance the age of consent is 16, and I know at least one good Christian couple who married at 17. Don't get so hung up on the one age you personally believe is correct, because it isn't a scriptural commandment so can only result in an unresolvable and to my mind pointless argument. Just say obey the law.

I completely agree 18 is good advice. But to mandate it is to add to Scripture just as much as mandating monogamy does. I know you are making a big point of it due to a valid public perception issue in the USA - you want to distance BF from the FLDS. Much as I support that aim, I cannot sit and let Scripture be added to in order to achieve it. That would be hypocritical when the foundation of our views on marriage is sola scriptura.
 
Fair 'nuff, Samuel.

And since I decided to marry my first wife at 15, though it took 4 years to get her to an alter, I can't disagree -- TO A POINT!

However, I will offer a common sense distinction sort of opinion: If a fella courts and marries a 16 year old girl as his first wife, and he is himself aged, say, 15-19, no-one will tend to raise too much of an eye. If, however, he's, say 24, they likely will. If he were 48 and courted a woman of 40, (same age difference,) they prolly wouldn't even notice, much less care. If your 48 yr old courted the 16 yr old? ...

You are correct that the Bible does not specify an age, and so we can't build a theology around a specific number.

However, those who are responsible for a given ministry, such as Doc, DO have both the right and the responsibility to set standards for that ministry. There is a value in avoiding the appearance of what is indeed a genuine evil.

Others are free to accept and associate themselves or disagree and dissociate themselves.

What Doc has said here seems to me to be simply, for BF, when seeking wives and using an association with this site and ministry as a reference in any way, 18 is it. BF's standard. Law being one of several reasons. Especially if the young lady involved is to be a second (third, etc.) wife.

Here's a real life example that I very much respect. Some years ago, Dr Sumrall, the highly respected Pastor, was asked by a lady in his congregation for a ride home. His wife had already left the church and walked home, so while he consented, it was with a degree of caution.

As they approached his car, she moved to open the front door. He said, You'll ride in the back seat or not at all. She looked a bit hurt, and saqid, "What's wrong, Dr Sumrall? Aren't I good enough to ride in the front seat with you?" He answered in his somewhat gruff voice, "The only thing wrong with you is your last name. You have the wrong one. If I drove you home in the front seat, we would be seen, and by tomorrow it would be all over town. I'll not be offering an opportunity for gossip. There's a right and a wrong way to do things." She rode in the back seat. Makes sense.
 
Fair points Cecil, and BF certainly can define a position for the ministry. I just think the current position sets the stage for continued painful and unprofitable debate. Doc gave two justifications for 18: maturity and law. My point is simply that both vary greatly, so one global age cannot be set in stone from them. This will therefore be a constant cause for debate as Christians with different backgrounds join the group. Deferring the debate to local laws neatly deflects all criticism from BF, while achieving the aim of avoiding underage marriage just as effectively.
 
Let's agree that one-size(age)-fits-all doesn't necessarily work around the world, and also agree to absolutely follow the law in this matter. Let's also please let that be the end of it. No underage discussion here, or we'll roll the thread back to Doc's post.
Thanks, Nathan
 
Nathan7 said:
Let's agree that one-size(age)-fits-all doesn't necessarily work around the world, and also agree to absolutely follow the law in this matter. Let's also please let that be the end of it.
Click to expand...
Fully agree, well said, shutting up now. :D Mark, 9 years isn't too much of an age gap, nobody will notice once you're 60...
 
:lol:

ust for fun ... There's a 5 yr age gap between my second wife and I. When we first got together I was in my early 40s and looked it or older. Unless I dyed my beard, which dropped 10 years, She, on the other hand, had 18 and 20 yr olds at her college begging her to come party with them, and absolutely refusing to believe that she was ... well, you do the math! :lol:

I guess it's all about perception...
 
Doc thank you for making it clear that these are the positions. I wouldn't be part of a ministry that supported the things you listed, so kudos to this ministry for taking an honorable stance! Btw, I hope to meet you at some point when you're back stateside.
 
Cool, couldn't agree more. I think that those issues are a part of what I don't like about some forms of religouse polygamy. I don't want to be assosiated with anyone who steals wives or marries teenagers. Where the swinging thing came from I have noooo idea, but cool I agree no swinging :lol:
 
I agree Doc, there's a right(eouss) way and there's a wrong (sinfull) way for a man to find a woman, be it a first or second, and there needs to be accountability. I hope the accusations are wrong :(
 
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