The War Prayer, by Mark Twain

[ylop]

Written in 1904 by Mark Twain, in response to the USA invasion of the Philippines.

I really like the poem for its cutting rebuke of the religious support for war, and the lack of consideration for what people are really asking when they pray to support the troops.

Dramatised version here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVYIRbmxHpc

Animated version here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVod4PwQHs

Modern version here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yruRt7mQWgg

---

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spreads of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country and invoked the God of Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpouring of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.

It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came – next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their faces alight with material dreams-visions of a stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! – then home from the war, bronzed heros, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation – "God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!"

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was that an ever – merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory.

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there, waiting.

With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside – which the startled minister did – and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said

"I come from the Throne – bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd and grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import – that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of – except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two – one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of His Who hearth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this – keep it in mind. If you beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer – the uttered part of it. I am commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it – that part which the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory – must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause)

"Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits."

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

 

[yoderfamily]

Well put ylop

 

[Wesley]

This illustrates the fallacy of trying to play God. Only God can judge the intentions of others. Humans cannot.

"He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd and grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import – that is to say, its full import."

• If the desires of the pastor's prayer were sinful then this accuses God of being willing to sin by granting a sinful prayer. (Proverbs 28:29)
• If the desires of the pastor's prayer were not sinful then this accuses God of criticizing those who are not sinning.

 

[ylop]

In this superbly structured satirical short story, the only people playing God are the people praying for him to support their troops.

 

[Wesley]

In this superbly structured satirical short story, the only people playing God are the people praying for him to support their troops.

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. Please research the difference between opinion and empirical fact.

 

[ylop]

Document: When next I realized that the Philippines had dropped into our laps, I confess I did not know what to do with them. I sought counsel from all sides-Democrats as well as Republicans-but got little help. I thought first we would take only Manila; then Luzon; then other islands, perhaps, also.

I walked the floor of the White House night after night until midnight; and I am not ashamed to tell you, gentlemen, that I went down on my knees and prayed to Almighty God for light and guidance more than one night. And one night late it came to me this way-I don't know how it was, but it came:

(1) That we could not give them back to Spain-that would be cowardly and dishonorable;

(2) That we could not turn them over to France or Germany, our commercial rivals in the Orient-that would be bad business and discreditable;

(3) That we could not leave them to themselves-they were unfit for self-government, and they would soon have anarchy and misrule worse then Spain's was; and

(4) That there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them and by God's grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow men for whom Christ also died.

And then I went to bed and went to sleep, and slept soundly, and the next morning I sent for the chief engineer of the War Department (our map-maker), and I told him to put the Philippines on the map of the United States (pointing to a large map on the wall of his office), and there they are and there they will stay while I am President!


Source: General James Rusling, “Interview with President William McKinley,” The Christian Advocate 22 January 1903, 17.

 

[ylop]

Private Fred B. Hinchman, Company A. United States Engineers, writes from Manila, February 22d:

At 1:30 o’clock the general gave me a memorandum with regard to sending out a Tennessee battalion to the line. He tersely put it that “they were looking for a fight.” At the Puente Colgante [suspension bridge] I met one of our company, who told me that the Fourteenth and Washingtons were driving all before them, and taking no prisoners. This is now our rule of procedure for cause. After delivering my message I had not walked a block when I heard shots down the street. Hurrying forward, I found a group of our men taking pot-shots across the river, into a bamboo thicket, at about 1,200 yards. I longed to join them, but had my reply to take back, and that, of course, was the first thing to attend to I reached the office at 3 P.M., just in time to see a platoon of the Washingtons, with about fifty prisoners, who had been taken before they learned how not to take them.

Arthur H. Vickers, Sergeant in the First Nebraska Regiment:

I am not afraid, and am always ready to do my duty, but I would like some one to tell me what we are fighting for.

Guy Williams, of the Iowa Regiment:

The soldiers made short work of the whole thing. They looted every house, and found almost everything, from a pair of wooden shoes up to a piano, and they carried everything off or destroyed it. Talk of the natives plundering the towns: I don’t think they are in it with the Fiftieth Iowa.

General Reeve, lately Colonel of the Thirteenth Minnesota Regiment:

I deprecate this war, this slaughter of our own boys and of the Filipinos, because it seems to me that we are doing something that is contrary to our principles in the past. Certainly we are doing something that we should have shrunk from not so very long ago.

Sergeant Elliott, of Company G, Kansas Regiment:

Most of the general officers think it will take years, and a large force of soldiers, to thoroughly subjugate the natives. And the unpleasant feature of this is that unless the conditions change radically there will be few soldiers who will care to stay there. There’s no use trying to conceal the fact that many of the men over there now, especially the volunteers, are homesick, and tired of fighting way off there, with nothing in particular to gain. There is not one man in the whole army now in the Philippines who would not willingly give up his life for the flag if it was necessary, but it isn’t pleasant to think about dying at the hands of a foe little better than a savage, and so far away from home. And the thought of its not ending for several years is not an especially pleasant one, either.

Charles Bremer, of Minneapolis, Kansas, describing the fight at Caloocan:

Company I had taken a few prisoners, and stopped. The colonel ordered them up in to line time after time, and finally sent Captain Bishop back to start them. There occurred the hardest sight I ever saw. They had four prisoners, and didn’t know what to do with them. They asked Captain Bishop what to do, and he said: “You know the orders,” and four natives fell dead.

Sylvester Walker, of the Twenty-third Regulars, February 20:

There has not been a night for the last ten days we have not had fighting. Our force is too weak, and we cannot spare any more men, and will have to wait for more troops. Then we will have hard fighting, for there are so many that, no matter how many we kill or capture, it doesn’t seem to lessen their number.

Martin P. Olson, of the Fourteenth Regulars:

We can lick them, but it will take us a long time, because there are about 150,000 of the dagos back in the hills, and as soon as one of them gets killed or wounded there is a man to take his place at once; and we have but a few men in the first place, but we are expecting about 8,000 more soldiers every day, and I hope they will soon get here, or we will all be tired out and sick. . . . This is an awful bad climate and there have been from two to four funerals every day. The boys have chronic diarrhea and dysentery, and it just knocks the poor boys out. You mustn’t feel uneasy about me, because I don’t think there is a Spanish bullet made to kill me; it is disease that I am most afraid of.

Fred D. Sweet, of the Utah Light Battery:

The scene reminded me of the shooting of jack-rabbits in Utah, only the rabbits sometimes got away, but the insurgents did not.

Capt. Albert Otis, describes his exploits at Santa Ana:

I have six horses and three carriages in my yard, and enough small plunder for a family of six. The house I had at Santa Ana had five pianos. I couldn’t take them, so I put a big grand piano out of a second-story window. You can guess its finish. Everything is pretty quiet about here now. I expect we will not be kept here very long now. Give my love to all.

Ellis G. Davis, Company A, 20th Kansas:

They will never surrender until their whole race is exterminated. They are fighting for a good cause, and the Americans should be the last of all nations to transgress upon such rights. Their independence is dearer to them than life, as ours was in years gone by, and is today. They should have their independence, and would have had it if those who make the laws in America had not been so slow in deciding the Philippine question Of course, we have to fight now to protect the honor of our country but there is not a man who enlisted to fight these people, and should the United States annex these islands, none but the most bloodthirsty will claim himself a hero. This is not a lack of patriotism, but my honest belief.

J. E. Fetterly, a Nebraska soldier:

Some think the insurgents are disheartened, but I think they will make a desperate struggle for what they consider their rights. I do not approve of the course our government is pursuing with these people. If all men are created equal, they have some rights which ought to be respected.

Arthur Minkler, of the Kansas Regiment says:

We advanced four miles and we fought every inch of the way; . . . saw twenty-five dead insurgents in one place and twenty-seven in another, besides a whole lot of them scattered along that I did not count. . . . It was like hunting rabbits; an insurgent would jump out of a hole or the brush and run; he would not get very far. . . . I suppose you are not interested in the way we do the job. We do not take prisoners. At least the Twentieth Kansas do not.

Burr Ellis, of Frazier Valley, California:

They did not commence fighting over here (Cavite) for several days after the war commenced. Dewey gave them till nine o’clock one day to surrender, and that night they all left but a few out to their trenches, and those that they left burned up the town, and when the town commenced burning the troops were ordered in as far as possible and said, Kill all we could find. I ran off from the hospital and went ahead with the scouts. And bet, I did not cross the ocean for the fun there was in it, so the first one I found, he was in a house, down on his knees fanning a fire, trying to burn the house, and I pulled my old Long Tom to my shoulder and left him to burn with the fire, which he did. I got his knife, and another jumped out of the window and ran, and I brought him to the ground like a jack-rabbit. I killed seven that I know of, and one more I am almost sure of: I shot ten shots at him running and knocked him down, and that evening the boys out in front of our trenches now found one with his arm shot off at shoulder and dead as h___ ; I had lots of fun that morning. There were five jumped out of the brush and cut one of the Iowa band boys, and we killed every one of them, and I was sent back to quarters in the hurry. Came very near getting a court-martial, but the colonel said he had heard that I had done excellent work and he laughed and said: “There’s good stuff in that man,” and told me not to leave any more without orders. Well, John, there will always be trouble here with the natives unless they annihilate all of them as fast as they come to them.

Tom Crandall, of the Nebraska Regiment:

The boys are getting sick of fighting these heathens, and all say we volunteered to fight Spain, not heathens. Their patriotism is wearing off. We all want to come home very bad. If I ever get out of this army I will never get into another. They will be fighting four hundred years, and then never whip these people, for there are not enough of us to follow them up........The people of the United States ought to raise a howl and have us sent home.

Captain Elliott, of the Kansas Regiment, February 27th:

Talk about war being “hell,” this war beats the hottest estimate ever made of that locality. Caloocan was supposed to contain seventeen thousand inhabitants. The Twentieth Kansas swept through it, and now Caloocan contains not one living native. Of the buildings, the battered walls of the great church and dismal prison alone remain. The village of Maypaja, where our first fight occurred on the night of the fourth, had five thousand people in it at that day,—now not one stone remains upon top of another. You can only faintly imagine this terrible scene of desolation. War is worse than hell.

Leonard F. Adams, of Ozark, in the Washington Regiment:

I don’t know how many men, women, and children the Tennessee boys did kill. They would not take any prisoners. One company of the Tennessee boys was sent into headquarters with thirty prisoners, and got there with about a hundred chickens and no prisoners.

D. M. Mickle, Tennessee Regiment, at Iloilo:

The building had been taken possession of by a United States officer, and he looted it to a finish. I suspected something and followed one of his men to the place. I expected to be jumped on by the officer as soon as I found him there, as I was away from my post, but it seems he was afraid I would give him away; in fact, we were both afraid of each other. He was half drunk, and every time he saw me look at anything he would say, “Tennessee, do you like that? Well, put it in your pocket”........The house was a fine one, and richly furnished, but had been looted to a finish. The contents of every drawer had been emptied on the floor. You have no idea what a mania for destruction the average man has when the fear of the law is removed. I have see them—old sober business men too—knock chandeliers and plate-glass mirrors to pieces just because they couldn’t carry them off. It is such a pity.

Theodore Conley, of a Kansas Regiment:

Talk about dead Indians! Why, they are lying everywhere. The trenches are full of them........More harrowing still: think of the brave men from this country, men who were willing to sacrifice their lives for the freedom of Cuba, dying in battle and from disease, in a war waged for the purpose of conquering people who are fighting as the Cubans fought against Spanish tyranny and misrule. There is not a feature of the whole miserable business that a patriotic American citizen, one who loves to read of the brave deeds of the American colonists in the splendid struggle for American independence, can look upon with complacency, much less with pride. This war is reversing history. It places the American people and the government of the United States in the position occupied by Great Britain in 1776. It is an utterly causeless and defenseless war, and it should be abandoned by this government without delay. The longer it is continued, the greater crime it becomes—a crime against human liberty as well as against Christianity and civilization........Those not killed in the trenches were killed when they tried to come out........No wonder they can’t shoot, with that light thrown on them; shells bursting and infantry pouring in lead all the time. Honest to God, I feel sorry for them.

F. A. Blake, of California, in charge of the Red Cross:

I never saw such execution in my life, and hope never to see such sights as met me on all sides as our little corps passed over the field, dressing wounded. Legs and arms nearly demolished; total decapitation; horrible wounds in chests and abdomens, showing the determination of our soldiers to kill every native in sight. The Filipinos did stand their ground heroically, contesting every inch, but proved themselves unable to stand the deadly fire of our well-trained and eager boys in blue. I counted seventy-nine dead natives in one small field, and learn that on the other side of the river their bodies were stacked up for breastworks.

Colonel Funston, Twentieth Kansas Volunteers:

The boys go for the enemy as if they were chasing jackrabbits........I, for one, hope that Uncle Sam will apply the chastening rod, good, hard, and plenty, and lay it on until they come into the reservation and promise to be good “Injuns”.

E. D. Furnam, of the Washington Regiment, writes of the battles of February 4th and 5th:

We burned hundreds of houses and looted hundreds more. Some of the boys made good hauls of jewelry and clothing. Nearly every man has at least two suits of clothing, and our quarters are furnished in style; fine beds with silken drapery, mirrors, chairs, rockers, cushions, pianos, hanging-lamps, rugs, pictures, etc. We have horses and carriages, and bull-carts galore, and enough furniture and other plunder to load a steamer.

N. A. J. McDonnel, of the Utah Battery, February 22d:

The enemy numbered thousands and had courage, but could not shoot straight. People can never tell me anything about the Rough Riders charging San Juan. If these natives could shoot as accurately as the Spanish, they would have exterminated us. Fighting goes on all along the lines, many natives are killed, but we capture very few rifles, as they seem to have men to take them. Official reports say over four thousand two hundred natives have been buried by American troops. How many they have buried themselves and how many more are dead in the brush no one knows.

Frank M. Erb, of the Pennsylvania Regiment. February 27th:

We have been in this nigger-fighting business now for twenty-three days, and have been under fire for the greater part of that time. The niggers shoot over one another’s heads or any old way. Even while I am writing this the black boys are banging away at our outposts, but they very seldom hit anybody. The morning of the 6th a burying detail from our regiment buried forty-nine nigger enlisted men and two nigger officers, and when we stopped chasing them the night before, we could see ‘em carrying a great many with them. We are supposed to have killed about three hundred. Take my advice, and don’t enlist in the regulars, for you are good for three years. I am not sorry I enlisted, but you see we have had some excitement and we only have about fourteen months’ time to serve, if they keep us our full time, which is not likely. We will, no doubt, start home as soon as we get these niggers rounded up.

Anthony Michea, of the Third Artillery:

We bombarded a place called Malabon, and then we went in and killed every native we met, men, women, and children. It was a dreadful sight, the killing of the poor creatures. The natives captured some of the Americans and literally hacked them to pieces, so we got orders to spare no one.

Lieut. Henry Page, of the Regular Army:

After a stay of about eight months among these people, during which time no opportunity has been lost to study their qualities, I find myself still unable to express a decided opinion about the matter, but I can unreservedly affirm that the more evidence collected the greater my respect for the native and his capacities........The recent battle of February 5th was somewhat of a revelation to Americans. They expected the motley horde to run at the firing of the first gun. It was my good fortune to be placed—about ten hours afterward—near the spot where this first gun was fired. I found the Americans still held in check. Our artillery then began to assail the enemy’s position, and it was only by the stoutest kind of fighting that the Tennessee and Nebraska Regiments were able to drive him out. The Filipinos' retreat, however, was more creditable than their stand. Perfect order prevailed. One of their companies would hold our advance until the company in their rear could retire and reload, when in turn this company would stand until the former had retired and reloaded. A frequent exclamation along our lines was: “Haven’t these little fellows got grit?” They had more than grit—they had organization........In each town a church, a convent or priest’s home, a “tribunal,” which is courthouse, jail, and record office all in one, and a school, constitute the public buildings. The schools were neat, substantial buildings, which testified that the Spanish made an honest effort to educate the masses. The Filipino is very anxious to learn, and the new government of Aguinaldo used every effort to start afresh these schools. The number of natives who speak Spanish, as well as their native tongue, and who also know how to read and write, is remarkable. No school teacher has been appointed in San Jose, and the school buildings are held by the American officers. In spite of this discouragement there is a private school flourishing in a native hut.

Robert D. Maxwell, Corporal Co. A, Twentieth Kansas:

Sometimes we stopped to make sure a native was dead and not lying down to escape injury. Some of them would fall as though dead and, after we had passed, would climb a tree and shoot every soldier that passed that way. Even the wounded would rise up and shoot after we passed. This led to an order to take no prisoners, but to shoot all.


Source: Soldier’s Letters, pamphlet (Anti-Imperialist League, 1899). Reprinted in Philip S. Foner and Richard Winchester, The Anti-Imperialist Reader: A Documentary History of Anti-Imperialism in the United States, Vol. 1 (New York: Holmes and Meier, 1984), 316–323.

 

[FollowingHim]

These quotes must not be considered an indictment of all soldiers in all situations. But they do show the common humanity of all people from all nationalities - everyone is capable of behaving nobly or behaving like a right bastard, depending on the circumstances. No nation is perfect. This is sobering. But also reassuring that at least enough people involved clearly recognised the error in what was occurring to write what they did.

This does help to explain why Filipino women looking for a foreign husband have a preference for Australians, New Zealanders, British etc and would often prefer not to marry Americans. I've heard that a few times (there are tonnes of Filipinos over here), but never really understood why. Note that they probably don't actually admit that to Americans, but they do to us... Clearly the memories of the past endure - for the same reason that many New Zealanders, Aussies and Americans instinctively distrust the Japanese. Although it is wrong to discriminate against an individual due to their nationality, the emotions that cause someone to instinctively discriminate in that way can have understandable causes.

The natives captured some of the Americans and literally hacked them to pieces, so we got orders to spare no one.

And thus everyone mutually causes everyone else to descend into brutality -
A: "They're killing too many of our men, we don't have the firepower to defend ourselves, let's take out our frustrations on the body of this one we shot".
B: "They're brutal savages, look what they did to that poor bastard, take no prisoners".
A: "They're murdering anyone they catch, they must be savages, let's hack to bits anyone we catch".
B: "They're even more brutal than we thought, better kill the women & kids too, can't have little savages growing into big ones"...
Because everyone wants to "win". A skirmish becomes a battle becomes a war becomes a massacre. The cycle doesn't end until someone "loses" - either by defeat or surrender.

It's human nature. We see the same thing in debates on the internet. A states their point, B states theirs, A throws in a foolish comment, B throws back a personal insult, A throws back a worse one, C gets drawn in, then 5 pages of mudslinging later nobody's really won but B has left the group and A's no longer talking to C. None of us are immune to it, I get dragged into it myself sometimes. Just imagine where we could descend to if we were shooting each other in the jungle rather than typing messages on the internet.

The only way it ends, be it a war or an internet mudslinging match, is when somebody chooses not to retaliate, and turns the other cheek. The answer is in Jesus. Someone must choose to lose. And that is a very difficult thing to do, because it means accepting the injustice you see to avoid the potential for future greater injustice. Which is not natural at all, it just seems wrong. God's way is completely backwards.

Now everybody, tread very very carefully in this conversation. I don't want to have to censor this, we're all adults, but I'll stop the conversation if it descends into insults. Ylop has personal connections with the Philippines that give him a particular bias here, while obviously many others have very close personal connections with the USA that give them the opposite bias. EVERYONE IS BIASED, INCLUDING YOU, my dear reader... So everyone needs to moderate the emotion in their statements or this will descend into a fight and I'll have to shut it down. If you must discuss war & soldiers, discuss the issues behind it generically, don't feel you must defend your own. That's hard, because all historical examples involve real nations. So let's see how mature we all are.

 

[Wesley]

These quotes must not be considered an indictment of all soldiers in all situations.

Generalizations serve no one. It doesn't matter whether it is generalizing all blacks as drug dealers, all blondes as airheads, all women as bad drivers, all men as abusive or whatever. Generalizations are generally wrong.

 

[ylop]

George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month.
Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

Mr Bush, who became a born-again Christian at 40, is one of the most overtly religious leaders to occupy the White House, a fact which brings him much support in middle America.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

 

[Wesley]

George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God...

Even if that's true, which it probably isn't considering the source, what does that have to do with anything?

God told Israel to go to war against the squatters who had taken up residence in the land God gave them so it is possible that God told Bush to go war as well. I doubt it but it's possible.

My point is that God does not command sin. He forbids it. So if it were sinful in all cases for a nation to go to war then God would not have commanded the Israelites to go war. (Joshua 1:1-9) Thus warfare cannot be sinful in all cases.

 

[ylop]

I started this thread to discuss Mark Twain's war prayer.

The quote about Bush and this one below are to show that the 'war prayer' situation is very much alive today.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has told how he prayed to God when deciding whether or not to send UK troops to Iraq.
Mr Blair answered "yes" when asked on ITV1 chat show Parkinson - to be screened on Saturday - if he had sought holy intervention on the issue.
"Of course, you struggle with your own conscience about it... and it's one of these situations that, I suppose, very few people ever find themselves in."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4772142.stm

 

[Wesley]

Prime Minister Tony Blair has told how he prayed to God when deciding whether or not to send UK troops to Iraq.

Good. That's probably the smartest decision I've seen from a politician in a long time. There's real power in prayer. I just hope that he listened to the guidance that he got from the Holy Spirit in response to his prayer. Not everyone does.

 

[yoderfamily]

Just a few thoughts on war from someone who comes from a totally non-resistance background. I am not trying to antagonize or start a fierce debate but just sharing where I have come to on the issue of war.

I grew up believing that it wasn't possible for a soldier to be a Christian. But I also had questions. How come Christians had all these freedoms gifted to them through others giving their lives. Jesus said that the greatest love is giving ones life for another's. But we also had history of the Anabaptist who refused to participate in war and those that took up the sword in desperation. Those that looked to God for their deliverance were the ones who seemed the most blessed. But the story of the soldier who threw himself onto a grenade to save his fellow soldiers always bothered me as in my understanding of scripture he gave his life with the intent to save his brothers.

After we had left the amish we were attending a home church and one afternoon we got onto the subject of war. One brother shared something I have never forgotten. He said he was in Germany as a student right at the fall of communism. As he stood at the fences and watched people breaking holes through concrete and as soon as they were big enough they would put their arms through and shake hands with those they had been separated from. He said the Holy Spirit gave him to understand that the walls were coming down because of men fighting evil. Both spiritually and physically. I couldn't fully understand right then but I understand now.
My trust in the federal governments righteousness is fairly small. But something I realize is that its up to the people to fight against evil. I would fight against someone like Isis as I believe that's a fight against evil. But not until those that live around them are willing to recognize that. Meaning its a spiritual warfare until the land itself is ready to spew them out then ground troops can win effectively.
Anyway just my opinions. I do honor those in the armed forces for their service. But I hold them accountable as I do all others.
I still believe the spiritual warfare trumps the physical but do believe God uses both.
Aaron

 

[ylop]

Thanks for sharing.

It would have been amazing to see the fences break down when communism collapsed.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The Bible has a lot to say on the subject of war and all of it appears to be pretty enthusiastic. Even the New Testament uses military jargon and imagery. Christ Himself was pretty impressed with the Roman Centurion and the next time we see Him He will be at the head of an army with a sword in his hand. Certainly there is a time for peace but also there is a time for war and if you're going to fight a war then it is a false kindness to try and be gentle about it. Win fast. Win hard. Make sure your enemy doesn't want to fight again for a very long time. Its the real kindness. But that's just the lunatic ravings of a rapidly aging infantry Marine.

 

[Wesley]

The Bible has a lot to say on the subject of war and all of it appears to be pretty enthusiastic. Even the New Testament uses military jargon and imagery. Christ Himself was pretty impressed with the Roman Centurion and the next time we see Him He will be at the head of an army with a sword in his hand. Certainly there is a time for peace but also there is a time for war and if you're going to fight a war then it is a false kindness to try and be gentle about it. Win fast. Win hard. Make sure your enemy doesn't want to fight again for a very long time. Its the real kindness. But that's just the lunatic ravings of a rapidly aging infantry Marine.

I agree with you zephyr. It would seem that James, the brother of Christ, agrees to. He advises us against being "double-minded". In other words if we're going to fight the be single-minded about it. Don't waffle back and forth.

James 1:6-8 NIV
6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

Even Christ advises us to give to Caesar what it Caesar's which includes the right to declare war. If we decide that the war is worth fighting then we should wholeheartedly support it. If not then we shouldn't go at all.

Personally I believe (present tense not just past tense) that defending the lives, livelihoods and freedom of my fellow Americans is worth my time. That's why I served in the Navy.

 

[ylop]

Speaking of double-mindedness, James mentions it directly in the context of conflict!

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
4 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? 6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
“God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

What is fighting, quarrelling and killing, but war?

What are desires and covetousness, but the triggers for imperialism? The desire for oil, gold, gas, ports, bases, domination...

What is friendship with the world but taking the gang leader's pay to agree to be one of his enforcers?

Just wanted to check...if a Christian in a country other than the USA serves in that country's military, are they also doing a good Christian duty?

Brings to mind the ludicrous situation where "Christian" armies are fighting each other, each with "Christian" military chaplains providing them with moral support.

Also reminds me of how Nagasaki was the largest Christian city in Japan, so large that St Mary's Urakami Cathedral was used as the aiming point by the crew of the B29 Bock's Car.

Which somehow reminds me that the Christians of Iraq were one of the oldest Christian communities in the world, however their numbers are decimated since the 2003 invasion.

I am not writing for everyone here, just hoping it might trigger a bit of thought in a few people.

ylop
making new friends with every post

 

[yoderfamily]

Has anyone ever heard about " Plain Compassion Crisis Response".?
I think some of you might find it interesting. Just Google it.

 

[ylop]

looks interesting although not a huge amount of explanation on their site. do you have any experiences with them?