The Qur'an says Christians are saved

[FollowingHim]

I was reading through the Qur'an today, and was reminded of why it is completely pointless to be a Muslim.

Those who believe (in the Qur'an),
And those who follow the Jewish (scriptures),
And the Christians and the Sabians,
Any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord:
on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Nay, - whoever submits his whole self to God and is a doer of good, - he will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

So, according to the Qur'an, any Muslim, Jew or Christian who believes in God and does good works, will enter paradise.
According to the Bible, we must follow Jesus to enter paradise - and if we're truly following Him we will do good works also.
So:

• If the Qur'an is correct then both Christians and Muslims are saved.
• If the Bible is correct than only Christians are saved, Muslims go to hell.

Ignoring all theology, and thinking purely mathematically, it's a safer bet to be a Christian as you're guaranteed to get to heaven either way.

 

[frederick]

Yeah, but only the Muslims throw in 72 virgins.

 

[Sean Miller]

How are you doing your math? Because Islam bases salvation or belief in God will be followed good by actions? Which of course we know we are not perfect in our actions, nor is that guaranteed or expected as a Christian, which is why we need Jesus of course. Very interesting though I never knew about that.

 

[Sean Miller]

Yeah, but only the Muslims throw in 72 virgins.

I thought it was 99, lol.

 

[Curtis Gerhart]

I was reading through the Qur'an today, and was reminded of why it is completely pointless to be a Muslim.


So, according to the Qur'an, any Muslim, Jew or Christian who believes in God and does good works, will enter paradise.
According to the Bible, we must follow Jesus to enter paradise - and if we're truly following Him we will do good works also.
So:

• If the Qur'an is correct then both Christians and Muslims are saved.
• If the Bible is correct than only Christians are saved, Muslims go to hell.

Ignoring all theology, and thinking purely mathematically, it's a safer bet to be a Christian as you're guaranteed to get to heaven either way.

Looks like you are creating a postulate to Pascal’s Wager. I like your logic. Leaving theology out of the discussion, as Blasé Pascal does, is good. It just weighs the probability in simple terms. Of course, there will be those that will bring it back to arguing theology and we will watch the discussing go off on a tangent that will lose focus on the “circle.”

 

[FollowingHim]

How are you doing your math? Because Islam bases salvation or belief in God will be followed good by actions? Which of course we know we are not perfect in our actions, nor is that guaranteed or expected as a Christian, which is why we need Jesus of course. Very interesting though I never knew about that.

They believe God weighs good vs bad, and is sufficiently merciful that it is at least possible to attain salvation by works. If that were correct, then a Christian can also attain salvation by works in the same way, according to the Qur'an.

Looks like you are creating a postulate to Pascal’s Wager.

Precisely. The problem with Pascal's Wager is that it only compares atheism and Christianity, ignoring the other potential religions someone could choose. I take it a bit further. In reality there are basically three major options:

1. Atheism
2. Works-based religion -> reward
3. Faith-based religion -> reward

If there is one, atheism misses the reward entirely. Works-based religion has a 50% chance of receiving it. Faith-based religion (with good works) has a 100% chance of receiving it. You can't lose.

 

[Cap]

Wouldn't there be more than three, humanism, belief in human ability, and the new one coming up, Way of the Future, AI. These have no reference to a god besides itself in creation and hope, totally outside the gamble.

 

[FollowingHim]

Yeah, but only the Muslims throw in 72 virgins.

That's where this logic gets really interesting. Because the Qur'an clearly says we get rewarded too and draws no distinction...

Just to reiterate the primary point, here's it reaffirmed, note the bolded wording.

...If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. ...
Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.
Of the good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right.

So, we're righteous (if we're in the ranks of true believers rather than the nominal masses, a distinction we'd usually agree exists in some form). And what do the righteous receive?

Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart's) desires; Gardens enclosed, and grapevines; And voluptuous women of equal age.

And, if you die while fighting for God:

Let those (believers) Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter fight in the cause of God, and whoso fights in the cause of God, - and is slain or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward.

That great reward is code for 72 virgins according to other Islamic writings. Same reward as any man, just multiplied. For the shockingly graphic description check out this summary.

So does that mean, in a religious war, if a Muslim chops your head off you either get a white robe etc as per Revelation, or an eternity of sex, all thanks to your murderer? I really like these odds!

If you're ever captured and facing execution in such circumstances, ask to borrow a Qur'an, find these verses, and you might be able to kick off some serious last-minute evangelism.

 

[FollowingHim]

Wouldn't there be more than three, humanism, belief in human ability, and the new one coming up, Way of the Future, AI. These have no reference to a god besides itself in creation and hope, totally outside the gamble.

They're all facets of atheism.

 

[Cap]

They're all facets of atheism.

Are you sure? Humanism is the belief that humans are god, and AI belief is in machines as god. Neither of these are work based or faith based, they just are.

 

[frederick]

Now that adds an interesting perspective.

 

[FollowingHim]

Are you sure? Humanism is the belief that humans are god, and AI belief is in machines as god. Neither of these are work based or faith based, they just are.

All I am considering is how to reach the afterlife (whatever that religion believes it to be). Atheism, humanism and AI all agree that there is no supernatural afterlife, and therefore do nothing to try to achieve such an afterlife. So, for the purpose of this simple logic exercise, they are all alike.

In the same way, there are many different works-based religions, but anything that says "if you're good enough you'll get the reward we believe exists after you die" is essentially equivalent for the purpose of this exercise. Buddhism for instance falls into the category of works-based religions - if you're good enough you'll be reincarnated as something better. Once again, if you're a Christian doing good works, and it turns out you're wrong and Buddhism is actually correct, it really doesn't matter as you'll be coming back as something fairly decent based solely on your works.

Yes, it's a gross simplification - but so is any parable. When you do simplify it in that manner, it is very interesting and may help to clarify the choice before somebody. Could be a useful tool in evangelism in certain situations.

 

[Phillip]

Yeah, but only the Muslims throw in 72 virgins.

I lived in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia for three years. I never asked the question but always wondered about those 72 virgins. Do they have to stay virgins? Just a thought.

 

[FollowingHim]

They're supposed to be some sort of spiritual creature (houri) that is perpetually a virgin physically, however many times you have sex with her. However that's not directly in the Quran, rather outlined in other Islamic writings, many of which read like a man's wildest sexual fantasies written down.

 

[Cap]

So my thoughts on this are, in any man made religion there is a grain of truth somewhere. Some more than others. If Islam is a religion from the decedents of Ishmael there must be some truth in there someplace since God did bless him and said that He would make him fruitful. I know there is a radical Islam, is there a fundamentalist(?) Islam?

 

[Phillip]

So my thoughts on this are, in any man made religion there is a grain of truth somewhere. Some more than others. If Islam is a religion from the decedents of Ishmael there must be some truth in there someplace since God did bless him and said that He would make him fruitful. I know there is a radical Islam, is there a fundamentalist(?) Islam?

While living in Saudi, I got to know quite a few and what I saw was a very generous people (for the most part) Their customs are still from 2,000 plus years ago. Not all, but many. Some were in plural marriage, most were not. The real Saudis, not radicals, would tell me about their children, crack jokes, tell me of their country and king, openly discuss God with me and allow me to share my beliefs including sharing about Jesus. I would discuss the old testament with them and was accepted as a God fearing man. Their hearts to be giving was an example to me. Oddly, they learned from me and I learned from them. They just have trouble with Jesus being Gods son.

 

[FollowingHim]

I think there is a lot of truth in it, mixed with grave error, and the truth makes the error easier to miss.

The message of Yeshua is really, really simple. Satan had to destroy it. And I see a major two-pronged approach that he has used to hide and distract from it.
1: Start Catholicism (forming Eastern Orthodoxy later too), add lots of complicated ritual, idol veneration, saint veneration etc. This takes the Christian community IN the church and distracts them from the Gospel.
Inevitably however, some people will see through this and see it as overly complicated, remain outside the church system, and wish to return to simple worship of God. So:
2: Start Islam to attract these people, which has the precise stated purpose of getting rid of idol worship, saint veneration etc, all the major problems with Catholicism - but throw out salvation by grace along with it (throw the baby out with the bathwater), and add a strongly military character that will result in wars for the forseeable future.

The result is two new religions, both claiming to follow all the prophets and Yeshua, but each missing the narrow road by gravely falling into the ditch, one on one side and one on the other. With almost everybody in the Middle East falling into one camp or the other (Eastern Orthodoxy and Islam), and virtually nobody seeing the plain and simple Gospel in the middle.

But both of these religions have enough truth in them to be used as a basis to teach the true Gospel from, and use the scriptures the person already accepts to teach them the truth. Because most of the truth is already there, you just have to find and present it.

 

[Cap]

Isn't that called chrislam, or something like that?

 

[Mojo]

I think there is a lot of truth in it, mixed with grave error, and the truth makes the error easier to miss.

The message of Yeshua is really, really simple. Satan had to destroy it. And I see a major two-pronged approach that he has used to hide and distract from it.
1: Start Catholicism (forming Eastern Orthodoxy later too), add lots of complicated ritual, idol veneration, saint veneration etc. This takes the Christian community IN the church and distracts them from the Gospel.
Inevitably however, some people will see through this and see it as overly complicated, remain outside the church system, and wish to return to simple worship of God. So:
2: Start Islam to attract these people, which has the precise stated purpose of getting rid of idol worship, saint veneration etc, all the major problems with Catholicism - but throw out salvation by grace along with it (throw the baby out with the bathwater), and add a strongly military character that will result in wars for the forseeable future.

The result is two new religions, both claiming to follow all the prophets and Yeshua, but each missing the narrow road by gravely falling into the ditch, one on one side and one on the other. With almost everybody in the Middle East falling into one camp or the other (Eastern Orthodoxy and Islam), and virtually nobody seeing the plain and simple Gospel in the middle.

But both of these religions have enough truth in them to be used as a basis to teach the true Gospel from, and use the scriptures the person already accepts to teach them the truth. Because most of the truth is already there, you just have to find and present it.

Great summation. There are little pieces of truth all around us and in most religions, but only one Truth.

 

[FollowingHim]

Isn't that called chrislam, or something like that?

No. That's when Christians go and accept Islam as acceptable to team up with, and make formal relationships between Christian and Islamic organisations etc. I'm just looking into the fundamental truths and falsities behind Islam and actually discouraging people from following it, that's something entirely different.

Great summation. There are little pieces of truth all around us and in most religions, but only one Truth.

The best lies are mostly true.