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General Subject to Governing Authorities?

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P Hartman

New Member
Female
My husband and I were reading the passage below in the Bible today. From what I am interpreting, this would put Godly people in a position of following an “authority” such as Hitler? Did God truly put Hitler in place? Can someone maybe provide clarification to make sense of this?

Romans 13:1-14 ESV
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience
 
This passage in the Bible was used for a long time to justify "The Divine Right of Kings". So pardon me if this is one of the passages in the Bible that I will appreciate and do my best to put into context as someone who rejects the notion that leaders like Joe Biden are appointed by God.
 
P Hartman said:
My husband and I were reading the passage below in the Bible today. From what I am interpreting, this would put Godly people in a position of following an “authority” such as Hitler? Did God truly put Hitler in place? Can someone maybe provide clarification to make sense of this?

Romans 13:1-14 ESV
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience
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This is a great question, but there's not necessarily an easy answer.

My personal take on this is that God authorizes (allows) governments and governors to exist to accomplish his purposes. It doesn't mean he approves of them or their actions, but he permits them to work their schemes as they fulfill his ultimate timetable and prophetic plan.

As believers, we are encouraged to live peaceably within the rules governing the land we live in and pray for those who have the rule over us.

But, we must ultimately obey God, rather than man when it comes to matters of faith. Scripture commands that we go, preach, disciple and baptize. If a government rules this as illegal, we must obey God, not man, and continue to do His bidding. Bowing down and worshipping a false God is forbidden. By good conscience, if we refuse to bow down, we are justified in refusing the commands of the authorities.

In matters that go beyond black and white prohibitions on religious faith, can we, in good conscience, rise up in arms against the government and laws we don't support in the social realm?

Some of that is discussed here:

https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/live-by-the-sword.15598/
 
It's a tricky passage. I take it to mean that human authorities do exist to enforce God's basic laws, and we should obey and even support them in doing so. For instance, the government establishes police and courts, and a system of law to stop or punish theft and murder. As God also wants to do the same thing, in doing this the government is acting as God's minister (whether they know it or not), and should be obeyed.

However, when a government is acting against God, then in this matter they are not acting as his minister, and this passage becomes irrelevant. They should be resisted in that area, and not obeyed.

It is also extremely important to recognise that this passage does not mention governments at all, it's just talking about human authorities. The ESV may say "governing authorities", but the KJV renders it simply "higher powers", which is more literal. Higher authorities include parents, teachers, employers, police, church elders, military superiors, whatever. This passage does not say "obey the government". It says "obey those who are in authority over you" because they are God's servants. In some circumstances we may have a greater obligation to obey family patriarchs and church elders than we do to obey secular government.

And even if obeying secular government, when the government changes suddenly and debatably (e.g. if your country was invaded by a foreign power who now claimed to be in authority), do you obey the remnants of the old government or obey the new government? Who is the God-ordained authority? That is obviously debatable. But it is easily resolved if we are simply obeying either when it comes to enforcing God's law. In other words, obey the legitimate law-enforcement actions against theft / murder etc of whoever happens to be in practical control of your city at the time. But don't feel obliged to obey them in other matters, or fight for them against other parties.

In an extreme situation (e.g. naziism or communism), where the family & church were all placed in opposition to the secular government, this passage may well be best interpreted as "obey your tribal / church / local elders as they seek to protect you from a government that seeks to do you harm, because they are your authority and are God's ministers for your good".
 
P Hartman said:
My husband and I were reading the passage below in the Bible today. From what I am interpreting, this would put Godly people in a position of following an “authority” such as Hitler? Did God truly put Hitler in place? Can someone maybe provide clarification to make sense of this?

Romans 13:1-14 ESV
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience
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Read it more closely, the passage tells us that we’re not to rebel against a ruler that God appoints and then tells us that such a ruler will steer people towards good and not evil. It’s actually license to rebel against evil rulers like Hitler.
 
God is Sovereign, so everything happens according to His Plan, which means that He created both Good and Evil, but it's a large mistake to assume that, just because everything is part of His Plan that He wants us to just go with the flow. After all, we're supposed to be learning something from our circumstances, not just knuckling under to them.
 
Keith Martin said:
God is Sovereign, so everything happens according to His Plan, which means that He created both Good and Evil, but it's a large mistake to assume that, just because everything is part of His Plan that He wants us to just go with the flow. After all, we're supposed to be learning something from our circumstances, not just knuckling under to them.
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Not to mention that, on some level, us overcoming evil is always part of His plan.

I didn’t say “all” or “every” evil.
 
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 is interesting to look at in relation to this discussion.
for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds),
5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;
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it says our weapons are not "carnal" not that they aren't, or can't be physical. We are then admonished to tear down strongholds, imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God. And to bring EVERY thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
Is it just me, or does every thought also include what other people think as well?

I don't necessarily know how this would be used in our day and age, but I think that is where we should "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
 
AmbassadorforChrist said:
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 is interesting to look at in relation to this discussion. it says our weapons are not "carnal" not that they aren't, or can't be physical. We are then admonished to tear down strongholds, imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God. And to bring EVERY thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
Is it just me, or does every thought also include what other people think as well?

I don't necessarily know how this would be used in our day and age, but I think that is where we should "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
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I think a straightforward way of at least partially summarizing that passage would be to say that we are in a war for the truth and our weapons are the truth and as the truth is wielded it arrests the untrue thoughts in people’s minds.
 
steve said:
An important part of warfare is definitely information.
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That one is ignored by most.
GUARD YOUR HEART, because out of it come the issues of life.

The sum of His word is truth.
This is why if someone is not willing to discuss all of scripture....every last verse....I suspect fear, or a wrong belief is held somewhere.

I like the passage that tells to purify your heart. Or a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Our enemies have been controlling the media, schools, semitaries, doctors, pastors and governments even through their misinformation campaign.

That is the short answer to how we got here. Lazy well fed and complacent people are easier to control.
 
FollowingHim said:
Higher authorities include parents, teachers, employers, police, church elders, military superiors, whatever
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This is key to understanding the Roman's passage. The next thing to realize is that they all have unique spheres of authority which do not overlap.

Where things get difficult for people and those in authority is when they try and take command over areas which God has put under other authorities. And this is a great problem in our nation today seeing as the government is working to bring ALL authority under itself.
 
rockfox said:
This is key to understanding the Roman's passage. The next thing to realize is that they all have unique spheres of authority which do not overlap.

Where things get difficult for people and those in authority is when they try and take command over areas which God has put under other authorities. And this is a great problem in our nation today seeing as the government is working to bring ALL authority under itself.
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Excellent summation @rockfox.
 
rockfox said:
https://www.gracechurch.org/news/posts/1988
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God has established three institutions within human society: the family, the state, and the church. Each institution has a sphere of authority with jurisdictional limits that must be respected. A father’s authority is limited to his own family. Church leaders’ authority (which is delegated to them by Christ) is limited to church matters. And government is specifically tasked with the oversight and protection of civic peace and well-being within the boundaries of a nation or community. God has not granted civic rulers authority over the doctrine, practice, or polity of the church. The biblical framework limits the authority of each institution to its specific jurisdiction.
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There's a whole other level of limitation on the State, that is very important, and is deliberately outlined but not discussed in that article. The article lays down why the church is not under the jurisdiction of the State. But it also puts a line in the sand that the family, too, is not under the jurisdiction of the State (without stating it overtly, just leaving it as the obvious conclusion that must be reached). That is a much larger battleground, and it will be very interesting to see where this dispute ends up going.
 
But again: Christ is the one true head of His church, and we intend to honor that vital truth in all our gatherings. For that preeminent reason, we cannot accept and will not bow to the intrusive restrictions government officials now want to impose on our congregation. We offer this response without rancor, and not out of hearts that are combative or rebellious (1 Timothy 2:1–8; 1 Peter 2:13–17), but with a sobering awareness that we must answer to the Lord Jesus for the stewardship He has given to us as shepherds of His precious flock.
To government officials, we respectfully say with the apostles, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge” (Acts 4:19). And our unhesitating reply to that question is the same as the apostles’: “We must obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29).
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Overall, an awesome treatise.
It also includes language similar to what I've been trying to encourage others to consider in another thread.
 
FollowingHim said:
There's a whole other level of limitation on the State, that is very important, and is deliberately outlined but not discussed in that article. The article lays down why the church is not under the jurisdiction of the State. But it also puts a line in the sand that the family, too, is not under the jurisdiction of the State (without stating it overtly, just leaving it as the obvious conclusion that must be reached). That is a much larger battleground, and it will be very interesting to see where this dispute ends up going.
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Good catch!
 
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