Speaking of crazy....

[Slumberfreeze]

I don't belong or go to a church. I mean, I am a part of the Church as a believer in Christ, but I no longer attend Sundays at any buildings under any sort of authority.

It was my conviction 10 or so years ago that the Church was called to be one organization, without divisive names or monikers, overseen jointly by a council of godly elders in every city, and meeting predominantly in homes where the believers could each participate in a meaningful way in the assemblies.

I brought this to my pastor's attention, and he said I had a proper biblical understanding on most of what I had to say, but that he was unwilling to make any moves to bring our church more fully in line with what scripture teaches on any of those points.

So I left... I spoke to a couple other pastors and got some similar answers and I decided I couldn't be part of any organization that would acknowledge a scriptural truth but not at least work towards it. I mean, you understand that if any pastor at any time had said that we would meet even privately monthly to pray for the unity of the Church in our city that I would be his loyal slave? The best I could get was a serene nod from one guy who hoped I succeeded in my 'mission'.

Today I am part of a tiny home based group. We pray and sing and teach and eat together and even have a jail ministry that is bearing fruit. No pastors or elders... we don't have anybody that would qualify, and it remains my contention that an elder's 'flock' is every christian in his city, whether he thinks so or not.

gotta go unexpectedly! byeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[yoderfamily]

Awakethefire I have come to the same conclusion . That makes me curious what your background is.
I have for my basis.
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart unto His righteousness you are my brother. And wherever there is a spark of Life I want to seek to promote it.
Even if those people believe in polygany. :》

 

[Slumberfreeze]

My background as far as church goes? I grew up with my father, whom I supposed to be Christian by the fact that he had a bible and there was a fair amount of christian literature that was even on my bookshelf as a child. He didn't speak to me about God or go to church. My mother would take me to church during the summer when I visited her, and the churches she took me to were mostly baptist type. When i was six she took me to some vacation bible school, and they gave me a little comic book sort of tract, (one that explained salvation along with pictures of a cross shaped bridge across a chasm that would lead to God). I signed my name at the bottom because it seemed reasonable to me to do so, and got baptised 2 summers later at a southern baptist church.

When I was in junior high my father allowed my brother's baby sitter to take us to youth group on wednesdays at a church of God church. Really good people there.

During this time, there was no real instruction in anything but salvation, so most of my understanding of doctrine came right from my own understanding of scripture, which was beneficial (I discovered the truth about nephilim at about 14) and detrimental (I also thought that literal giant beasts were going to be destroying the world like Godzilla)

In college I briefly studied to be a Mormon (though at the time they took offense and insisted on being called LDS). They did not quite succeed in convincing me that their scriptures (which I did read) were God breathed, so they switched tactics and tried to get me to date their girls with an eye towards marriage so they could convert me later. "Don't worry, man, lots of people get married before conversion". I have been assured that this is not a normal conversion tactic by missionaries, but it happened and it spelled the end of my involvement with them.

Shortly after that I began attending a calvary chapel which really helped me reconcile the tension between charismatic and fundamentalist thinking without denying any scriptural truths from either side. It was also the first time I was involved with a group of semi-like minded people my own age. My heart aches a little when I remember the fellowship of those days.

I eventually attended a calvary baptist church when I settled in my mother's city, and although I did not really fit in there, (long haired city boy with a chip on his shoulder who smoked among plain spoken country folk who loved a-huntin' and a-fishin') they were most charitible towards me. They saw me much more kindly than I saw myself, pressed me into service as a sunday school teacher (how I loved it), and made me play Jesus at the passion play. (The crown of thorns they usually have as a dedcoration? They stuck that on my head and then beat me with jump ropes. After the first rehearsal they clipped some of the thorns from the inside). This was also the church that I left. Shortly thereafter they split over a contention about Rick Warren's purpose driven life book.

So that's where I've been. My actual teachers are people I never met, but had to read books and listen to tapes. I owe C.S. Lewis big time. Same with Chuck Smith, Chuck Missler, Ray Comfort, and Kent Hovind.

I have many more names of people whose teachings I give ear to, but that is current events, not background. Oh boy Yoderfamily, I hope you wanted a book, 'cuz that's what i wrote.

I would also like to know your background; and hopefully some authority will move this to a different forum if the topic transgresses the forum category.

and..... ireallyreallylikemynewnickname!

edit: That is a basis that I can get behind. "Whoever is not against us is for us" hits me real hard.

 

[yoderfamily]

A little background. Hmm

I was born to an amish family a few years back. We lived on the east coast till I was five then moved to Mo. . The church community in Missouri that we moved to was more spiritual then what my parents had grown up in. Which had resulted in a hunger for more truth which had resulted in the move.
To understand the amish culture you have to realize the more legalistic the less spiritual and the varying degrees among the amish.

We lived at that community for ten years then moved 120 miles to another to escape the strife and contention within the local brother hood. I was 15 @the time and already had been heavily influenced by the church in ways they still don't realize. There I went to the amish parochial school where I was educated and traumatized. ( .
But the one thing they had was Sunday school. The thing very few amish churches have. And that meant we would take our bibles to church. So thru reading the Scriptures through out the long sermons I was rewarded with a lot of questions. Which my parents teachers and elders didn't care for. But a foundation was laid.

After having moved the second time against my brother s and my will. ( I have 3 bro. and 4 sisters). I was still to young to be with the youth group ( min. age 17) . I remember driving my older sister somewhere with the horse and buggy talking about a neighboring community and one girl in particular who had been baptized @ the age of 15. (Which was non traditional). And somehow (though I didn't realize how) it was impressed upon my mind I would marry that girl later.

Through a series of events. I joined the church thru baptism. (Another photographic memory) While kneeling there on the cold hard concrete floor (the services were held in a shop) with me being the oldest meant that is was first. The bishop asks me the questions one which was" will you promise to work within and uphold and be a conscientious member of the church. ( instant thought flashes. Somehow the way he said it it seemed it could have a double meaning. Did he mean the amish church or the church of God? I settled it in my mind they wouldn't be arrogant enough to mean just the amish so I said yes. A few years later after I had left the amish my grandpa accused me of breaking my promise while on bended knee and I could vividly describe what had flashed thru my mind which silenced him on that point.

Any book deals yet?

Any way I currently am married to the woman who was the girl I wrote about earlier. We have 3 children and I am staying around home waaaaiting on the birth of the fourth. Ill try to add more on where we are spiritually later as " I've got to go"

 

[Slumberfreeze]

I would read the book that's for sure. I would even buy the first print hardcover! I can honestly say that I did not ever expect to be conversing on an internet forum with someone telling me about their amish upbringing. :lol

I do not think there is any way our backgrounds could be more different! As a brief example, when I was 16 I confessed to my father that I intended to stay a virgin until I was married. He shook his head with disappointment and told me that I was too moral. (which was the only time anybody ever accused me of THAT!) I was super confused because I thought morality was a good thing.

Also among the greatest crimes I could commit under my father's rule was turning the other cheek. It was required that I fight anyone who disrespected me, my sister, or my family. Failure to fight (and win) was a beating offense.

WOW. Being an introvert with house guests is such an experience! I have to go again! byeee!

Tell me more!!!

 

[davidedmorn]

It is founded on the life, teachings, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and those who follow him are called "Christians." The sacred text of Christianity is the Bible, including both the Hebrew scriptures (also known as the Old Testament) and the New Testament.





Ten Commandments messages

 

[Wesley]

Personally, I don't believe in the "one church" theory of theology.

Christ only has one body of believers but that body has many parts (1 Corinthians 12) which are expected to be different from one another. Can you imagine if the entire body was a liver? Or one big eyeball?

There are seven churches mentioned in Revelation 2 & 3. Paul states that the church at Corinth is a virgin bride for Christ independent of other churches. (2 Corinthians 11:2) Israel and Judah are two more. (Ezekiel 23) That's a total of ten brides of Christ right there and we could go on counting.

Christ describes Himself as a polygynist with five wives, potentially ten, in The Parable of Ten Virgins. (Matthew 25:1-12)

I personally see no reason to believe the "one church", and thus "one bride" theory of Christianity.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

W-
Without discussing the polygyny of God, which is well established on this website, I think:

I am in agreement that the Church is often in scripture broken up into city-sized bits by design. That was a key issue in my original manifesto that I shared with my pastor, which I will not attempt to reproduce here so that I don't "Release the Beast" on an internet forum

When I say 'one Church' I am usually speaking of a city's Christians, all of them. The recognition is there that two Churches in two different cities are yet still one body with one Head, but organizationally the two can only realistically co-operate, not operate as one because they have divergent command chains.

It is our nature to gather with those who have similar tastes and temperments and beliefs, however. Thusly we have a regrettable tendancy to have a fellowship of people who understand systematic theology and disciplined bible study, but have only the rarest and fleeting personal experiences with the Holy Spirit. These people gather two blocks away from a fellowship of people who all speak in tongues and worship like King David, and lay on hands to heal the sick, but rarely see the inside of their actual bibles. (I'm being overly harsh on purpose to underline the distinction.)

There are different callings and gifts within the body, but these men and women of these varying strengths need each other badly. The Baptist says to the Pentecostal, "I have no need of you" and so the hand and the eye are no earthly (or heavenly) good to each other.

That is essentially what I mean by one church.

 

[Wesley]

Without discussing the polygyny of God, which is well established on this website, I think...

I'm not sure that we can so easily dismiss an issue that is so central to the topic of discussion. The churches are not meant to be one anymore than wives are meant to be one flesh with each other. We do have biblical examples of hierarchical structures among the wives of the same man (Rachel/Bilhah, Leah/Zilpah, etc.) and the Bible supplies us with a word for a wife of lower social rank (concubine) but that is optional rather than expected.

The same is true for churches. All churches are under Christ's authority. They are not necessarily under each other's authority. To enforce such a hierarchy would actually be damaging to the body of Christ just like it would be damaging to the body of a patriarch to enforce an unwelcome hierarchy among his wives.

One example of such damage would be the Amish. They exist to provide what the Old Testament calls "cities of refuge" for the faithful who are either threatened with the temptations of technology such as internet porn or those who feel threatened and want to live "off the grid" so to speak. If we forced them to follow the teachings of another church such as the Baptists with regard to technology it would hinder that purpose if not totally destroy it.

That is only one example of the body of Christ benefiting from doctrinal separations between the churches. There are many more.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Slumberfreeze didn't say the churches should be under any other church's authority, He only made the same point you did, that they are all parts of the body of Christ, and should not dismiss each other as unimportant.

I have read about cities of refuge in the OT, but I fail to see the Amish providing the modern equivalent in any way.

My husband and I refuse to be part of any denomination, as most only serve to divide the body, and inflate the egos of their members, with misplaced confidence in their own rightness.

We do however enjoy fellowship with many believers, who themselves attend many different churches.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

How far can we allow doctrinal, organizational, and authoritative separation between fellowships (in the same city, as you say) and respond in any intelligible way to Paul's exhortation in 1 cor 1 to speak the same thing; be perfectly joined together with no divisions; and be of one mind and one judgement?

As it stands now, in my city, nearly every heresy imaginable is represented in the church, because we cannot be bothered to at least subscribe to the same heresies! We try not to say "I am of Paul" (although no-one really did, Paul was speaking figuratively). But what is the difference between saying "I am of Martin Luther" and "I am a Lutheran"? Isn't it just semantics?

 

[Wesley]

But what is the difference between saying "I am of Martin Luther" and "I am a Lutheran"? Isn't it just semantics?

===========================

Ecclesiastes 3:1
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens

The concept of "every activity" would seem to include denominationalism.

===========================

I don't seem to be communicating my intent effectively. Let me try saying it a different way.

Matthew 15:7-9 NIV

7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”

Christ condemns legalism as hypocrisy. Any teaching can become legalism however.

Just like monogamy is not sinful but legalistic monogamy is (1 Timothy 4:1-3) we need to be careful that our attempts to unify the church into one body, by our definition the term "one body" as opposed to Christ's definition of the term, do not become just one more type of legalism. Honestly, I can't see any other path that such an effort could go other than legalism.

• The protestants teach legalistic monogamy.
• Catholics teach that priests must be legalistically celibate.
• The Amish teach that we should eschew technology.
• The Eastern Orthodox teach that everything must be gassed with incense.
• etc.

In order to unite the church into one unified entity we would have to make decisions about what doctrines to teach and which ones are heresy. The reason that so many of the various denominations are teaching heresies is because their leadership got corrupted by false prophets that know how to manipulate church politics.

I really don't see a way to prevent such a thing from happening again in any unified church that we try to form. So at what point does our attempt to create a unified church become the legalism of "You're a heretic if you don't agree with me"?

Would a unified church teach...

• baptism by sprinkling or immersion?
• predestination or free will?
• use or don't use computers, cars, etc.?
• polygamy allowed/prohibited?
• a wife's submission is voluntary/forced?

 

[FollowingHim]

Very good points Wesley. We cannot have a single centrally organised church that dictates theology on such matters, because those who disagree will go elsewhere, then we'll be back to separate churches again.

But I agree with Slumberfreeze that we should see ourselves as one Body.

I don't think we should be trying to set up a single "command structure" in each town. That just won't work, and doesn't seem to be Biblical. The Church is an organic movement, not a regimented structure.

Rather, every Christian in every town, regardless of their views on the details, should simply recognise that all others who accept Christ as Lord are their brothers and sisters. They should be willing to fellowship with them, and specifically seek people they disagree with to fellowship with, and even debate scripture with, in love, without allowing the results of that debate to divide them. That way we will all gradually learn - a few people will no doubt learn the wrong details, but overall the Church will grow deeper in their knowledge of Christ and more united in love.

If people still want to worship separately on a Sunday morning because they have different music styles or strong views about communion or whatever, that doesn't bother me. Provided they still see each other as brothers, not enemies. I must say one of the places I have most strongly felt the presence of the Holy Spirit during worship was a Catholic monastery, another was the Biblical Families retreat last August. You'd struggle to get two more opposite theological viewpoints (or music styles), and everyone will have stuff that's wrong. But when people honestly meet in Christ's name, God moves, what they believe about the details becomes irrelevant.