Sometimes "Inspiration" is not quite so

[Maddog]

“The beginning of divine joy is found in freedom from domination in the arena of faith: freedom from being manipulated, pressured, and coerced into someone else’s own personal belief system. We are the helpers of others’ joy by assisting them in their freedom from religious faith-domination.”
Clyde Pilkington, Jr. (1959 - )
Author, The Great Omission

I have been encouraged to generate a new thread advancing my disagreement regarding an "inspirational quote" instead of the often tolerated derail.
My reply:
Are you saying in rephrase, our ultimate goal in evangelizing is to free people from evangelizing? Or to eliminate the rules (or even protocol) of scripture in favor of a rule unto themselves? I thought that was the textbook definition of "iniquity". If every rule was then "done away" or thrown out as not applicable, then everything is permissible including activity formerly known as sin. No religious system will allow such a devolution into anarchy, heck even Anarchists have some moral parameters. Where oh where did they attain such a thing? The name Pilkington rings a bell but I havent read his work.
Does this not fly in the face of the Great Commission spoken by the Master?

 

[NVIII]

Keith can answer for himself, but since it is Clyde you're arguing with and Clyde's not here, let me just point out what I think is the difference between his thoughts and yours. Clyde is talking about spiritual things, and you are talking about earthly things. You both are talking about the same ball and chain, that onerous golden calf called religion (you even correctly identify it as a system), but Clyde speaks of divine joy and faith in God found in freedom from man's religion, whereas your fear is about losing protocols for permissible activity and presumably gaining anarchy as a result of casting off those chains. While both positions can be argued, let's don't begin by assuming they are the same.

our ultimate goal in evangelizing is to free people from evangelizing

This sounds like a great goal and the perfect culmination of the Great Commission. Kind of like the old adage about teaching a man to fish rather than just giving him one.

 

[Joleneakamama]

“The beginning of divine joy is found in freedom from domination in the arena of faith: freedom from being manipulated, pressured, and coerced into someone else’s own personal belief system. We are the helpers of others’ joy by assisting them in their freedom from religious faith-domination.”
Clyde Pilkington, Jr. (1959 - )
Author, The Great Omission

It seems to me that there is usually two ways of looking at something. Some seem to think that under the reign of the judges in ancient Israel "Every man doing what was right in his own eyes" describes lawlessness and anarchy. I have long seen that as just describing the freedom to act according to conscience. In reading the history of the kings there is an oft repeated phrase. So and so did that which was right in the eyes of YHWH. In Christian society God's law is the foundation of morality and in fact defines morality. What the quote seems to be addressing is exactly what the early Americans were trying to get away from, namely a system that coerced compliance to someone's interpretation of God's law. The council of Trent comes to mind, and how obviously there was a difference of opinion, with some holding the position that it WAS lawful for a man to have more then one wife. The council claimed authority to determine for everyone that polygyny was wrong.

In ancient Israel I'm sure God's favor was apparent on those living in a manner pleasing to Him. Joseph was over all of Potiphar's house because everything he did prospered. I believe it would be the same today. Those living with a desire to do right will be lead, and blessed in doing right.

our ultimate goal in evangelizing is to free people from evangelizing?

This sounds like a great goal and the perfect culmination of the Great Commission. Kind of like the old adage about teaching a man to fish rather than just giving him one.

This just sounds like a time described where no one will say to his brother know the Lord because all will know Him, from the least to the greatest.

 

[Keith Martin]

I have been encouraged to generate a new thread advancing my disagreement regarding an "inspirational quote" instead of the often tolerated derail.
My reply:
Are you saying in rephrase, our ultimate goal in evangelizing is to free people from evangelizing? Or to eliminate the rules (or even protocol) of scripture in favor of a rule unto themselves? I thought that was the textbook definition of "iniquity". If every rule was then "done away" or thrown out as not applicable, then everything is permissible including activity formerly known as sin. No religious system will allow such a devolution into anarchy, heck even Anarchists have some moral parameters. Where oh where did they attain such a thing? The name Pilkington rings a bell but I havent read his work.
Does this not fly in the face of the Great Commission spoken by the Master?

No inconsistency between what Clyde has written and the Great Commission.

It's impossible to either create clarity or define anything by using the word, phrase or concept as the centerpiece of defining or clarifying that word, phrase or concept. The result becomes what's known as a complex question, which is always unanswerable. Example, define racism: the practice of utilizing racist behaviors to discriminate against others based on their race. What?

“The beginning of divine joy is found in freedom from domination in the arena of faith: freedom from being manipulated, pressured, and coerced into someone else’s own personal belief system. We are the helpers of others’ joy by assisting them in their freedom from religious faith-domination.”

Clyde Pilkington, Jr. (1959 - )
Author, The Great Omission

Jolene caught the proper emphasis:

“The beginning of divine joy is found in freedom from domination in the arena of faith: freedom from being manipulated, pressured, and coerced into someone else’s own personal belief system. We are the helpers of others’ joy by assisting them in their freedom from religious faith-domination.”

. . . but I'll add some more emphasis:

“The beginning of divine joy is found in freedom from domination in the arena of faith: freedom from being manipulated, pressured, and coerced into someone else’s own personal belief system. We are the helpers of others’ joy by assisting them in their freedom from religious faith-domination.”

Clyde Pilkington, Jr. (1959 - )
Author, The Great Omission

The Risen Christ admonished His disciples to witness, to spread the Gospel to all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit . . ." [CVOT]

The word 'evangelize' has come to be a very muddy word, but invoking it has come to be for many zealous Christians a license to manipulate, pressure and coerce those who don't adhere to the evangelizer's particular personal interpretation. That's why I insist for myself on a stark distinction between witnessing and evangelizing, considering the former to be legitimate at all times and the latter to rarely be so.

Clyde's not asserting here that one shouldn't witness or negating the Great Commission; he's just asserting that it's out of line to strong-arm fellow human beings into having the same interpretation as the person who is ostensibly sharing the Good News.

To be dominated into faith runs counter to true full acceptance of that Good News by the recipient of that domination.

 

[Maddog]

Simply put, He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Additionally, our freedom is NOT found in the freedom FROM religious structure but rather within that order. It is the guard rails on a mountain road. Fewer souls are lost down the side than if there were zero parameters.

 

[Keith Martin]

Simply put, He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Additionally, our freedom is NOT found in the freedom FROM religious structure but rather within that order.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on that point, because I see the overarching stultifying bureaucratic tendencies of organized religion outweighing their coexisting benefits.

 

[Maddog]

Now I am writing with a bit of "forked tongue" here but the assembly of like minded individuals is valuable to encouraging good theology and behavior (pot lucks not too terribly good for the waist...). There is Paul's admonition to "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together..." With all the "assembling" we do here and challenging dialogue, it is almost the same. Moderators doing what they do as the leadership structure it is none the less structure. You choose to be a part and play with their "ball" and play by their "rules" is no different than if we assembled in a room called away from the confines of individual cloisters to an "ekklesia". The vacuum of rules will necessitate structure and something will morph into being. It happens that most of us are on our best behavior so very few "rules" or structure is required. Indeed there is freedom from a polluted system, some being more so than others.
At least here in the states we have opportunity to reject various assemblies and start our own. Not every society has that. With that I know my intentions are pure and have no nefarious intent and so award the same to the scholars of old or even current. The idea that all those other guys that did the translating (or church leaders)had terrible intentions because they just couldnt accept the old way (poly and Torah etc) is in itself nefarious (and maybe arrogant too). Did they make mistakes or have a bias? Absolutely. They however have more education and experience than me and I am compelled to accept much of what they say. I have my 60plus year's experience in other areas but am still learning. Freedom FROM religion is the rallying cry for Anarchists and Atheists and Agnostics, each being hypocritical on their face as each is a religion with a "system". We have to be careful with whom we form common mantra. Besides, having read a tiny fraction of Pilkington's epistles, I think the aforementioned quote might be removed from context to advance a dialogue he did not espouse.

 

[Keith Martin]

Now I am writing with a bit of "forked tongue" here

Good evening, @Maddog!

Before I tackle the rest of what you've written, I respectfully request that you identify which part or parts of what you've written in this most recent post are representative of your "forked tongue."

Thanks!

 

[Maddog]

You asked.... I do not attend an assembly anywhere right now for several reasons even though I am a trained and degreed Pastor. I defend pastors, I have two other brothers that are clergy, I cannot award malicious or even selfish intent to my flesh and blood and former classmates. I know them. Good men in every sense of the word and I suspect our forebears were similar. That said, I know and have worked with skunks too.

 

[Keith Martin]

You asked.... I do not attend an assembly anywhere right now for several reasons even though I am a trained and degreed Pastor. I defend pastors, I have two other brothers that are clergy, I cannot award malicious or even selfish intent to my flesh and blood and former classmates. I know them. Good men in every sense of the word and I suspect our forebears were similar. That said, I know and have worked with skunks too.

My experience with pastors is that most of them are truly well-meaning. It's the structure within which they work I prefer to avoid. A couple of my favorite pastors, in fact, came to conclusions similar to mine.

I also grew up believing I wanted to be a Lutheran pastor -- but changed my mind.

the assembly of like minded individuals is valuable to encouraging good theology and behavior

I love both assembly and fellowship with like-minded individuals (each of which exemplify ekklesia).

However, in addition to being absent in Scripture, I find neither justification for nor added benefit of tithe-requiring church buildings, paid staff functioning to one degree or another as unnecessary intermediaries between myself and YHWH, or membership in a restrictive clique denominational country club which predominantly serves as a way to limit oneself to fellowshipping with other individuals who share one's obsession with a handful of distracting minor theological issues.

With all the "assembling" we do here and challenging dialogue, it is almost the same. Moderators doing what they do as the leadership structure it is none the less structure.

I agree with you, though, that the assembling we do here on biblicalfamilies.org is indeed ekklesia and can function here as fellowship to a small extent and to a much greater extent at in-person gatherings. This is somewhat hampered by the fact that the mission of this organization is prioritized to be one thing in its splash-page mission statement but prioritized quite differently in practice.

You choose to be a part and play with their "ball" and play by their "rules" is no different than if we assembled in a room called away from the confines of individual cloisters to an "ekklesia".

Agreed. And 'membership' is voluntary, as exemplified by my having left biblicalfamilies.org three separate times -- and further exemplified by the fact that Biblical Families leadership no longer chooses to voluntarily associate with me in person.

The idea that all those other guys that did the translating (or church leaders)had terrible intentions because they just couldn't accept the old way (poly and Torah etc) is in itself nefarious (and maybe arrogant too).

This sentence simply confused me. It almost seems like you're asserting something. Do you mind rephrasing it?

Freedom FROM religion is the rallying cry for Anarchists and Atheists and Agnostics, each being hypocritical on their face as each is a religion with a "system."

Agreed, but it's always important to distinguish between religion (personal belief system) and organized religion or Big Religion (organized, bureaucratic, corporate, restricted-membership structure). Atheism, agnosticism and even liberalism are all personal religions.

Besides, having read a tiny fraction of Pilkington's epistles, I think the aforementioned quote might be removed from context to advance a dialogue he did not espouse.

Well, having been Associated Editor of Bible Students Notebook at the moment when Clyde published that quote, I can guarantee you not only that I know the context but that it wasn't removed from any other context, because every word of each issue went through my internal editing processes.

While I don't doubt the high likelihood that Clyde pulled that quote from one of his previously-published essays, the only context when I had involvement with it was Clyde inserting it into an issue as a standalone quote. Therefore, I can only assume that Clyde believed the quote required no further context, and, given the then-intimate nature of our work together, I can also guarantee that his intended message was to encourage dissociation from either religious organizations or evangelists that endeavor to manipulate, pressure, or coerce one into adopting a promoted cookie-cutter set of beliefs. I can further promise that it had nothing whatsoever to do with discouraging edifying fellowship.

 

[Maddog]

Does Mr P associate with anyone or has he indeed withdrawn from any assembly? As soon as there is any gathering, there is organization and any functioning org requires protocol re: behavior. Hence a de facto church and now the games begin again... I am reminded of the famous philosopher Groucho Marx who while waving his classic cigar said, (loosely quoted) "I would never want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member!"
The popularity that garners a following will demand communication such as his vast volumes. Followers like that and want to be a club of sorts and then a cult is alleged regardless of dogma.
Rephrasing earlier statement: The translators of scripture were very learned men. Many have ascribed to them nefarious intent because they didn't espouse polygamy or local church v universal church doctrine or Baptism by immersion v sprinkling or the inclusion of various books into the canon of scripture. They Had An Agenda by golly!! I say to that- To the evil all things are evil. Kinda like the Jimmy Swaggarts of the world who decry prostitution only to be found out visiting lesser scrupulous ladies who indeed had more character because they were not deceiving anyone. They advertised their product right up front and delivered on an agreed upon price.
The translators of the KJV had a job to do as with the Geneva and the NIV etc. I ascribe to them pure intent. Same same with church leaders with some obvious exceptions. Take the good and throw out the bad. I have learned the hard way to not be so dang critical. The world is not as condemning as most of us because They Dont Care about long haired freaky people. OK i am off my soapbox now..... latah!
ps. I am reminded of the basement watering hole where everybody knows your name.....

 

[Keith Martin]

For some of us who have been so habituated to institutional, highly structured, professionally led, building-centered Christianity, it feels like we are abandoning the Lord to so simplify our Christian walk. It has been reinforced in our psyche that “good Christians” go to church every week so we won’t be guilty of forsaking the assembling of ourselves together and so we are properly feed spiritually. Ceasing to follow that routine feels very strange at first and the churchgoers in your family will begin to express concerns about your “backsliding” when they note you aren’t going to church regularly as you once did. Those who have the church-as-a-building-with-religious-programs-you-go-to mindset cannot conceive that relaxed, simple conversation going beyond surface banter that results in everyone involved loving God and each other more deeply can be “church.”

Steven L. Rogers