• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Should pastors be paid/vocational?

I try to follow a couple of principles
First, the husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits - or the ox treading out the corn must not be muzzled. 2 Tim. 2:6
Second, each assembly or house should set their own budget independent of outside controls or judgement.
Third, Christians ought to be charitable, but out of a willing heart, not of necessity or coercion.

As to whether or not it’s acceptable to “pay the pastor”, is he laboring in the Word and in deed? Pay the man if he has need of it. Paul writes in 2 Cor. 12:13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? Forgive me this wrong. Paul was not paid by the church at Corinth, but was paid by others (2Cor 11:8&9) so that the naysayers had no basis for their attacks.

That being said, I agree that this system that we have that makes the position a vocation is a very real travesty to the office and has resulted in hirelings that care more for the prestige, authority, remuneration and personal gain than for the families that are under their care.

The structure that I’ve found that best matches first century church is one described in a letter from the 15-1600 era. In it, the assembly was a collection of families that met at a designated home, and 3-5 of the men would take time to speak about their personal study of the previous week for 45 min to an hour each, then they would exercise the Lord’s Table and afterwards they would have the common meal and fellowship and would conclude in the early afternoon with a time of singing and worship before returning to their individual homes.

Ultimately, it’s up to the individual group, or individuals within the group. I know of small groups (like is mentioned above) where no money is exchanged but there’s a lot of love and respect given. I know of a small church that the pastor preferred not to be paid and the men insisted. I know of another small church where the pastor earns enough in his trade to provide for his family, but is also paid a decent amount because of how much he still labors in the Word and in Prayer for his people. Not from coercion, but from appreciation. Obviously, these are anomalies in our Churchianity culture where it is more blessed to coerce and consume than to be an honored steward.

As a parting thought, why should one shepherd be compensated for moderating an assembly of shepherds. I can understand being compensated for caring for the sheep, but not for other shepherds. If the assembly is comprised of sheep then the shepherd should be paid accordingly as he is worthy of his hire. OTOH, if its just a get together of shepherds who happen to bring their own flocks with them, maybe they should just be sharing in the expense to make the get together possible.

P.S.S. Using the analogy of the flock, does the flock pay the shepherd for his oversight? Or does the owner of the flock pay the shepherd? Perhaps the owner of the flock pays the shepherd through the increase from the flock.
 
Similar to what a sent out foreign missionary does, a paid laborer of the church is freed up to be present for spiritual support when others can't be. He is paid to be in places they can't always be due to obligations they cannot be released from.

Mama just had a heart attack
Junior just got busted for DUI
Sam lost his job and has a gun to his head
Aunt Mable is going in for heart surgery and is freaking out over death
The Smith's are about to be evicted


It's possible for a congregation to have someone qualified and available at all times to attend to myriad issues that crop up in life, but not likely.

Similar to our wined and dined cushy political offices, paid church ministry can stray far from original intent. But, the the abuses don't define the purpose.
 
Similar to what a sent out foreign missionary does, a paid laborer of the church is freed up to be present for spiritual support when others can't be. He is paid to be in places they can't always be due to obligations they cannot be released from.

Thats the theory but in practice it means the pastor does it instead of the members and the members rarely if ever do it. Much like sending money to a missionary and then never bothering to speak the Gospel to your neighbor. Scriptures do mention people with gifting for helps and ministering, but that was never associated with the elder and the general one another passages were written to the flock. While it may be nice to have a paid person whose job it is to minister, he will never be able to bring the same amount of love, care and help that a whole congregation dedicated to the task can.

How would you feel if you were sick in the Hospital and only mom came to visit. "It's ok son, Dad and your siblings paid me to come minister to your needs."

Thats the setup we have now.
 
I see a big difference between an elder and a pastor. The elders should quite simply be the most spiritually mature men in the congregation, and ultimately should run the church. The pastor, if there is one, should be a servant / minister, hired by the elders on behalf of the church, to focus full-time on ministry under the direction of the elders. He should not be the church leader, as Christ is that and His will is determined by several elders to avoid error or personality cults. He is a deacon, a servant. He is not needed for a small fellowship but may be a practical necessity for a larger one, particularly if an ambitious ministry program is planned that needs a full-time worker.

There is no difference between elder and pastor in the scriptures. None. Splitting them is a modern practice without foundation in the scriptures.

Modern churches that have elders and a pastor usually operate on the corporate model, wherein the pastor is hired and acts as the CEO and chairman of the board of elders. Again, this is a business model, not a scriptural one.

Yes there should be multiple elders. But the modern practice of hiring pastors in from outside is extra-Biblical and causes untold issues. The pastor system has all the marks of the system the NT warned against; hirelings lording over the flock and tailoring their message to itching ears, and acting as the final authority on the scriptures.

When the rubber hits the road the majority of churches only care about 2 things: butts in the seats and wallets in the collection plate. Of course they'll deny that all day long, right up to the day they run you out of the church because your personal walk of faith gets in the way of butts or wallets.

I do think elders and teachers should be compensated for their time. But the way it is done in virtually all modern churches leads to major problems. Refusing to pay them would be less problematic. Churches are run like a business and not a family. If it were a family it would still get the necessary things done, just differently to better effect with fewer problems.
 
Here's the full context for Paul's quoting of the muzzled ox passage:

1 Corinthians 9:4-14. Have we no right to eat and to drink? Have we no right to take along a wife who is a believer, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? Or have only Barnabas and I no right to not work? What soldier ever serves at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard, and doesn't eat of its fruit? Or who feeds a flock, and doesn't drink from the flock's milk? Do I speak these things according to the ways of men? Or doesn't the law also say the same thing? For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." Is it for the oxen that God cares, or does he say it assuredly for our sake? Yes, it was written for our sake, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should partake of his hope. If we sowed to you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we reap your fleshly things? If others partake of this right over you, don't we yet more? Nevertheless we did not use this right, but we bear all things, that we may cause no hindrance to the Good News of Christ. Don't you know that those who serve around sacred things eat from the things of the temple, and those who wait on the altar have their portion with the altar? Even so the Lord ordained that those who proclaim the Good News should live from the Good News.
Seems pretty clear to me that there's no inherent Biblical problem with a pastor being paid by his congregation.
 
the modern practice of hiring pastors in from outside is extra-Biblical and causes untold issues.

A shepherd is to know his sheep. Having a flick if goats, we have tended to multiple generations and family cycles. Flicks don't change shepherds easily or well.

Point, most (not all) pastors and church corporate midels pander to ladder climbers, not generational sgepherds that walk miles and seasons with the same flock for decades or a lifetime.
 
I agree wholeheartedly that the current model is not described in scripture. It's been abused in multiple ways. Members of the assembly should take on these duties! But, as an avowed pragmatist, I don't think the people in need care who comes, as long as someone is there when they are in need. We can sit and describe the problem in theory, but in the meantime, real people have real spiritual needs. Using the current model, a paid minister should be striving to work himself out of his paid position by training the laity to do that which they should do on their own.

In the meantime, can someone show me concrete scripture that says paid clergy is forbidden? Grace is a beautiful thing. If it ain't forbidden, proceed with care and caution.
 
There is no difference between elder and pastor in the scriptures. None. Splitting them is a modern practice without foundation in the scriptures
Ish and I had a pretty detailed thread where we hashed out the meanings of these words in pretty great depth, and I have to say that this was one of my take-aways as well. I saw that an assembly had elders (plural), whose roles we're described as both an overseer (episkopos, bishop), and a shepherd/pastor/teacher -- often both were mentioned in the same verse. We also saw that while the core meaning of episkopos was to oversee, look-over, or look-upon it also had connotations in both Hebrew and Greek of attending-to, inspecting, and especially to visit. It was used to describe a doctor making a house call. But also of a general inspecting and censusing his army. This role was distinct, however, from the deacons/ministers/servants (who were appointed to wait tables in Acts).
 
Seems pretty clear to me that there's no inherent Biblical problem with a pastor being paid by his congregation.

For the record Paul was an apostle not an elder per se and at times refused to take money from the local congregation. But the principle does still apply to elders as well, all the more so given 1 Tim 5:17-18.

Using the current model, a paid minister should be striving to work himself out of his paid position by training the laity to do that which they should do on their own.

But that is never the case. It is always assumed to be forever (or until he retires or is replaced) and brings with it innumerable problems.

You want pragmatic solutions, here is one for you: let him set up a patreon account. Members can give anonymously (left hand right hand). The church saves on administration costs. Members will have a better feel for exactly how those 'tithes' are being spent and preachers loose the conflict of interest inherent when asking for offerings. And the church will have less temptation to bend the knee to the government for tax breaks.
 
let him set up a patreon account.

Love it!! That will pretty quickly validate or expose the current church model...

Seriously, one huge problem is that western Christianity/ churchianity is NOT truly community. For a Biblical model to function in fullness, community is necessary... our Marlboro Man alone on the range independent mindset is entirely anti-Biblical.
 
Ish and I had a pretty detailed thread where we hashed out the meanings of these words in pretty great depth, and I have to say that this was one of my take-aways as well. I saw that an assembly had elders (plural), whose roles we're described as both an overseer (episkopos, bishop), and a shepherd/pastor/teacher -- often both were mentioned in the same verse. We also saw that while the core meaning of episkopos was to oversee, look-over, or look-upon it also had connotations in both Hebrew and Greek of attending-to, inspecting, and especially to visit. It was used to describe a doctor making a house call. But also of a general inspecting and censusing his army. This role was distinct, however, from the deacons/ministers/servants (who were appointed to wait tables in Acts).
The problem I see is that our churches hire 'ministers', but we call them 'pastors' and expect them to lead the church, which the elders should be doing. I slipped into the same misuse of the word 'pastor' in my last post, sorry for the confusion. There is a clear distinction between an elder and a minister.
 
In this age, and in this matter, we are seeing:

Establishmentarians
Reformers
Purifiers
Separatists

Each has their own merits. I think understanding each other's approaches is needed. I don't think any of us on here are propping the establishment, so the last three are what we are trying to figure out. I'm more a reformer in mindset, who is content to try to purify what already exists.
 
I see what you're saying about ministers @FollowingHim. Thing is we never see them paid in scripture and they weren't one of the 5-fold, to the contrary they usually helped them. There are ministers in scripture, but we use that term interchangeably for pastor today which lends confusion.

And while some may have a gift of helps, the one another passages make it clear ministering is really a job for all.

@Mojo that is an interesting breakdown, would love to hear what those 4 approaches entail.
 
Establishmentarians
Reformers
Purifiers
Separatists
  • Establishmentarians- "All is fine. Build it bigger!"

  • Reformers- "This thing isn't working. It needs to be reformed to work. Corporate houses are still needed, but need to function much differently. Be prepared for a final product that may have little resemblance to what you remember. Be prepared to no longer need the existing pastoral model."

  • Purifiers- "The form is fine. We just need to purify each person's mindset to reflect the agape of Christ. Each person needs to take up their own cross. Pastors/Bishops stick around, but your role is changing."

  • Separatists- "To hell with the whole mess, I'm out!"


This is the way I see it. I may be wrong. I think 90% or more of the church in America is on the establishmentarian path.
 
Last edited:
Thats the theory but in practice it means the pastor does it instead of the members and the members rarely if ever do it.
Nailed it.

Food for thought: The "professional Christian" that gets paid to do the work instead of others is being rendered outdated and unnecessary by the communication technologies of the internet. A church big enough to "need" a paid speaker or paid hospital/home/jail on-call visitor should be found to have at least a few guys in the fellowship that could set up a twitter account for bulletins, an email list server for less urgent needs, etc, and should be able to find somebody in the fellowship that could make that visit. Same for educational technologies, etc. More later maybe.
 
You want pragmatic solutions, here is one for you: let him set up a patreon account.
Brilliant! Now that's 21st century Christianity! :cool:
 
I'm more a reformer in mindset, who is content to try to purify what already exists.
I'm a gratefully recovering reformer, who thinks he has discovered reasons that reform of the corporate system will not and cannot work, but I 100% support the right of adult males to make their own determination about that based on their own perspective and experiences! I'd love to have someone come up with a workable, replicatable model for church reform, and I'm rooting for you in your fellowship even as I am cutting my own path outside the gates.
 
@Mojo, unless you want to modify your definition of Separatist I'd ask that you add a fifth category of "MoreExcellentWayist". I'm actually a bit vigilant towards malcontents and rebels--people who's primary motivation appears to be "agin" something. The better question is what are you for.

It's a bit "chicken and egg" or "two sides of the same coin", but my departure from the corporate church had more to do with pushing in where I saw God at work (an "in joke" plug for Experiencing God), which was mostly in my living room in small groups, on the streets of Houston doing worship evangelism, and in large prophetic conferences. What I saw going on Sunday mornings was ritual and good intentions, but I didn't see the power of God at work (see 1 Cor 2:4).

So yes, I have my formal critiques and informal criticisms of "Churchianity", but my main concern is that a lot of well-intentioned believers are missing out on miracles. The best way to approach that problem, though, is not being critical of the church, but by showing how things can be different. As the 12-steppers say, "attraction, not promotion" (let alone condemnation).
 
I'd love to have someone come up with a workable, replicatable model for church reform, and I'm rooting for you in your fellowship even as I am cutting my own path outside the gates.

^^^That right there is the corporate model mindset that I want to reform!^^^^

You can't replicate, franchise, or cookie cut the successes of one congregation to another congregation. It's why I am a champion of the free and independent assembly! Do what works best for your body. The scripture is the base plan and guide, but grace should free us from the restraint of group think in ministry and service.

Note: I'm not interested in reforming the broader assembly, though. I think each assembly needs to have men step up and reform their own assembly.

@andrew, and others, is it possible that your existence within the Bible Belt of our country has tainted your views of the corporate assembly called "church"? Folks in Massachussetts, New York, California, or Vermont don't experience the cultural phenomenon of the Southern US. Folks in these liberal bastions go to church because they want to! There is no cultural push beyond that. Just food for thought.
 
Back
Top