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Should pastors be paid/vocational?

PassionatePatriarch

PassionatePatriarch

Member
Male
Hey all! So my wife and I are going tp be the first of what will hopefully be many, many Bible studies/fellowship gatherings tonight with a group of very open minded and passionate believers who yearn for God's truth.

With that said, while marriage and polygyny specifically are on the schedule for discussion eventually, our first topic is regarding whether or not the modern structure of the church, and the format of the common "sunday service" are actually Biblical.

While I am obviously leaning heavily toward an answer of "not at all", one foundational question that I am continuously coming back to is, "should pastors be paid?" Is there a Biblical precedence for vocational pastors who take a salary from their congregations? I'm kind of noticing how paid pastors tend to be the lynchpin that hold the entire institutionalized, corporate/business model church system together.

Any of you guys/gals ever study this issue out before? If so, what have you concluded? God bless!
 
Big can of worms; I see a 100-post thread in our future. :eek::cool:

For now, if you're getting together with a small(ish) group of friends, or at least 'friendlies' who are likely to become good friends, just focus on praying for each other and helping each other as necessary. Don't assume that your first moves need to be a budget, a fundraiser, and a business plan to figure out how to launch a corporation (you're obviously not, I'm just trying to stick with a particular train of thought). Love on each other and see how it goes, and see for yourself if you really need a paid motivational speaker to move you along on a weekly basis; see if you think that's the best use of your resources.

More on that later as the thread evolves.

I'd like to insert my ritual plug here for Wolfgang Simpson's book Houses That Change The World, still a good read after 20 years. (It's cheap used on Amazon, but if you look around you should be able to find a free pdf somewhere.)

I am never going back to corporate church….
 
Yes and no. We're talking about a difference in kind more than logistics.

Most churches are human kingdoms. Human institutions. They are little different in form and function from any corporation. But if you look at the NT church you see it is more akin to a family. Pastors are like the elders of the family/tribe. They weren't hired from the outside but were of the local number and recognized as elders by apostles (missionaries) by virtue of their calling, station, and qualification. Nor were they an entrepreneurial church planter who creates a job for himself; those were the missionary apostles who were itinerant or maybe an evangelist. The only time you had a treasury per se was when it was necessary for collecting for foreign giving or great immediate local need.

So what you don't see in the scriptures is a teacher hired and paid out of a treasury. Such would be a hireling spoken against in scripture and brings with it all the problems we see today. There is only one mention of paying them, and it implies that this was a one to one thing; people blessing him individually with money or resources as they saw fit.

Keep in mind also the 5 fold ministry. What is now called a pastor was at first just the elder role. An elder is worthy of support because he is putting time and effort into your spiritual care, especially if he teaches. But he is there to equip you to fly, not to spoon feed you and make you dependent, not to do all the work of ministering to the body which the members ought to be doing. Not to take on all 5 roles. He is primarily there to teach (in an equipping manner) and deal with spiritual fires. He is not there to do all the one anothering the body should be doing.

True NT fellowship is like life together as a family. It's not just something you do on Sunday morning (so empty an fruitless that is by comparison). Should a pastor get paid is like asking if Dad should get paid. It is a category error. Yes you feed him, but he isn't there as a job. But at the same time, this isn't to say you can't have an elder who is busy enough, and gets enough support from various members that he doesn't need to seek employment (or much of it).

A digital analog to the NT pattern would be a Patreon supported youtuber vs. a media corp hired nightly newscaster (as the modern american church model).
 
^^^THIS!^^^
 
rockfox said:
all the one anothering the body should be doing
Click to expand...
Love that phrase; first came across it 35 years ago and it changed my concept of the body of Christ. It is the heartbeat of the body.
 
andrew said:
Love that phrase; first came across it 35 years ago and it changed my concept of the body of Christ. It is the heartbeat of the body.
Click to expand...

The problem is, once you've experienced it, it makes regular church seem empty and pointless.

If this idea of church as a family is new to anyone, I'd suggest starting with the latter half of the Gospel of John where Jesus is giving his final words to his disciples on the night of his arrest. Families are bound together in love and love is the key teaching of those chapters and really, the whole NT.

Then do a search in the NT for 'one another'.
 
Preach it, brother!

rockfox said:
The problem is, once you've experienced it, it makes regular church seem empty and pointless.
Click to expand...
And if you haven't experienced it, it's kind of hard to understand why certain malcontents are so somewhere-between-apathetic-and-oppositional re the corporate church.
 
Speaking as a seminary trained former pastor.... glad I'm not in church any more. We do home fellowship with everyone bringing something to the table. Light, very light structure with Spirit leading... all study and prepare for specific topics or passages of Scripture. lots of worship and prayer.
 
Sounds like my kind of party! :cool:
 
A thought here; read 1 Cor. 9:1-14 but note particularly v:14: Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.
Although already alluded to by @rockfox above, I'd add 1 Tim. 5:17-18 for consideration: Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

Something you ought to keep in mind is that, biblically, there is no such person as a "pastor". The Greek word translated "pastor" in Eph. 4:11 (the only place the word "pastor" appears in most English Bible translations) is actually the usual Greek word for "shepherd" and is translated that way every other time in the New Testament. The work is one of shepherding God's people; the man is to be an "elder", meaning spiritually mature, and if he works hard he's to be considered worthy of his wages. His work is literally that of a shepherd-teacher (Eph. 4:11). For those who aren't aware of the Granvill Sharp's rule in Greek grammar, the words translated "pastors and teachers" are referring to the same person. This might be more easily understood if it were translated; "shepherds even teachers".

Jesus forbade His disciples from giving or receiving any sort of religious titles (read Matt. 23:1-12) and this whole practise today of "pastors" being exalted as religious superstars is the exact opposite of how Jesus Himself lived and served the people. "Church" today is more about theatre than it is about God's flock being shepherded and taught!

**Climbs down off soap box**
 
**Climbs up on recently vacated box**

... which implies that that the wages of the elder should come voluntarily from those he shepherds. I have active disdain for what is called church and much of what goes on there, but refusing payment to elders is throwing a baby out with the bath water.

I firmly believe that each city's Christians should be led by a council of elders, ruling jointly and cooperatively, which ideally looks nothing at all like a pastor the way it is expressed now. And I believe those elders should expect to receive money from the Christians whose souls they safeguard.

And I believe if those elders do NOT accept money from those who give it freely and instead choose to support themselves with a normal vocation... they aren't busy enough and may be misleading the flock about their personal responsibility to fulfill all scripture. And I say that any city's believer's who say to their Overseers "Paul took no reward, neither shall you have reward from us, work with your own hands", they rob themselves twice. Once by forcing their shepherds, (Who should be too busy preaching, teaching, and ministering to the Lord to even be bothered with dispensing charity to widows) to take up their time in a worldly vocation; and again by not exercising their spiritual muscles through simple obedience to the Word of God- they will be unhealthy no matter how well they are fed.

SO MANY ANCIENT HEBREW FARMERS HAD TO ENDURE COW SLOBBER IN THEIR FRESHLY THRESHED GRAIN TO BRING US THIS LESSON.

Edit: Consider that it may be if a shepherd fleeces the assembly by demanding his due even though he may be lazy- Jesus said do all the Pharisees command, for they sit in Moses' seat, yet do not do according to their works. Jesus will repay a flock-destroying shepherd in due time, meanwhile at least the flock will not be quite so laodicean (IMO) as a group who does not consider the physical needs of their leaders their personal responsibility.

edit edit: **Vacates soap box**
 
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With that said, while marriage and polygyny specifically are on the schedule for discussion eventually, our first topic is regarding whether or not the modern structure of the church, and the format of the common "sunday service" are actually Biblical.
Click to expand...

There are many practices that we engage in in our spiritual lives that are not specifically biblical. But, more importantly, the question is is it "UNBIBLICAL"? By that, I mean, is it actively against, or prohibited in scripture?

Since the days of Finney, the American evangelical/fundamentalist movements grew accustomed to the 'sawdust trail' or 'walking the aisle' for an invitation to receive Christ. It became so prevalent and commonplace that it became part of a routine. Is that specific type of invitation biblical? Is it found specifically in scripture? Not really. But is it unbiblical (prohibited or illegal)? Not really. The problem is when folks assume the strength or weakness of an assembly based on the practice of the altar call. I know of folks who think a church is not operating correctly if they don't conduct one each week.

To cast a judgment either way on an assembly that chooses to pay or not pay is inappropriate in my eyes. If they choose to, all good. If they choose not to, all good.

I believe in the independence of each congregation. How they conduct their business is not my concern. They will answer to Christ, not me, if they are using their finances unwisely, or inappropriately.
 
andrew said:
Big can of worms; I see a 100-post thread in our future. :eek::cool:

For now, if you're getting together with a small(ish) group of friends, or at least 'friendlies' who are likely to become good friends, just focus on praying for each other and helping each other as necessary. Don't assume that your first moves need to be a budget, a fundraiser, and a business plan to figure out how to launch a corporation (you're obviously not, I'm just trying to stick with a particular train of thought). Love on each other and see how it goes, and see for yourself if you really need a paid motivational speaker to move you along on a weekly basis; see if you think that's the best use of your resources.

More on that later as the thread evolves.

I'd like to insert my ritual plug here for Wolfgang Simpson's book Houses That Change The World, still a good read after 20 years. (It's cheap used on Amazon, but if you look around you should be able to find a free pdf somewhere.)

I am never going back to corporate church….
Click to expand...
The more we learn, the more we see the mainstream corporate church is representative of the false prophet spirit. They tend to teach strong errors mixed with some good basics. This is part of the reason they usually despise these families. I know this is a hard saying. I have a feeling this is part of the "come out of her my people". We are His elect, regenerated, born again Israel in Christ.
Money and power corrupts, so many pastors thirst for those things, that makes them for the most part tell the sheep what they want to hear so the flock will grow. This is prophecy, the itching ears in the last days. Welcome to the last days.
Now I will admit there are some big pretty churches with large organs and programs. Unfortunately, when Christ came, his opposition was from the church. Why are people surprised to see a similar religious spirit in it today?
 
There are plenty of unpaid cult leaders who enjoy the fame and fortune route of unsuspecting adherents. They ain't just found in pulpits. They are definitely found there, but not exclusively or entirely.
 
I believe each congregation is responsible for what they choose. What I have seen too many times is compromise. Sometimes they have to choose to teach hard things or to grow the feel good congregation and do a sort of flattering divination. A pastor told me once, "if I preach that, it can ruin my career," " it is what it is". Is that a common compromise? If we mostly self support, then are less likely to be afraid of loosing hireling status, more open to what the spirit wants shown. Now people can give for different causes voluntarily. Nothing wrong with that.. Is the dependent cycle that might bring compromise. Paul didn't have a pension, just a hard retirement.
 
Mojo said:
There are plenty of unpaid cult leaders who enjoy the fame and fortune route of unsuspecting adherents. They ain't just found in pulpits. They are definitely found there, but not exclusively or entirely.
Click to expand...
True.. As there are many for hire ones too. Error is error, paid or unpaid. Money is just one incentive. Cult leaders usually live off the congregation too. Maybe not in an official salary.
 
Someone once told me; You can preach to please the people or you can preach to please God but you won't be popular doing the latter.

PassionatePatriarch said:
I'm kind of noticing how paid pastors tend to be the lynchpin that hold the entire institutionalized, corporate/business model church system together.
Click to expand...
They'll only keep it together if they keep the people happy.
 
I like the line of question.
But before you answer "should you pay the one pastor"? Is it biblical?
Maybe there are other questions to answer like; Is the one pastor model biblical? Is the modern structure of Church biblical?
I've heard it said that there's as much biblical president for handling snakes in church as there is for the one pastor church. ( I'm not sure it's true I've not checked)
The architecture of a building determines the way we function in the building.
The shift from a home to a temple changes a lot of things

I wonder if Jesus came to a modern church would he see anything in it that he began with?
 
rockfox said:
Pastors are like the elders of the family/tribe. They weren't hired from the outside but were of the local number and recognized as elders by apostles (missionaries) by virtue of their calling, station, and qualification.
Click to expand...
I disagree as I see a big difference between an elder and a pastor. The elders should quite simply be the most spiritually mature men in the congregation, and ultimately should run the church. The pastor, if there is one, should be a servant / minister, hired by the elders on behalf of the church, to focus full-time on ministry under the direction of the elders. He should not be the church leader, as Christ is that and His will is determined by several elders to avoid error or personality cults. He is a deacon, a servant. He is not needed for a small fellowship but may be a practical necessity for a larger one, particularly if an ambitious ministry program is planned that needs a full-time worker.
 
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