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Security for the Family and the new Sister Wife

V

Verifyveritas76

Seasoned Member
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I was reading @MeganC s blog and was inspired by what their organization does for the incoming SW. Apparently, there is a quick process for committing and covenanting although the consumation could be postponed for a while. The interesting thing to me was that the new SW coming in was immediately vested in the Family estate in an equal share. This is done apparently, to give a sense of security to the new wife and enable her to feel more secure in this big decision.

While I applaud this way of thinking, I couldn't help but notice as I continued through the blog that as the household grew with additional wives, at a point in their lives, some of the women left taking their portion with them. I noted that when times and finances were tight, the women stayed. When the accounts were flush, the least happy of the wives would make the decision to leave - - with the majority of said liquid assets. Obviously, this resulted in the family being placed back in tight financial status while one made out like a Queen!

Now, the point of this post is not to denigrate anyone. In fact, I think I'm a little in awe of how far their system has progressed and seems to try to be fair. However, I think their system is a bit skewed toward the leaving spouse. I know Biblically there was always a way for the covenanted wife or handmaiden to leave the house. I know that's the way God set it up and thats good. However, I also have seen that there were certain restrictions on the woman who left. She left without the kids, she must return to her fathers household, she may not remarry unless she has been given a writing of divorcement, and she may leave with all her possessions (or at the minimum what she entered the marriage with, her dowry) and it was typically an enormous shame and dishonor for the remainder of her life or at least until another man would take her under covenant.

I have also heard of stories where a woman leaves her home and familiar surroundings to join another home, and within 6 months or so given the left foot. While I realize there may be good reasons for this, I can't help but wonder, with all the single women out there who are looking, and all the couples out there who are wanting, I wonder if the issue of security for both parties were solved if that wouldn't connect people more quickly.

Anybody have any ideas on how to establish this aspect of covenant securely? Maybe a legal limited partnership? Maybe just a private covenant/contract spelling out the details and responsibilities for both parties including conditions for the dissolution of said partnership? Also, perhaps language protecting both parties from a no fault separation situation?
 
I've not had time to really process through this, but my initial thoughts are perhaps some sort of accruing and vesting up to her full share.

That said, I am struggling a bit with the idea of it, but I'm going to take a second read later when I'm not so rushed.

Interesting topic ...
 
Now that I think about it maybe "security" isn't a great thing to worry about. Trust and faith kind of dies I an environment where are right and needs are guaranteed.
 
ZecAustin said:
Now that I think about it maybe "security" isn't a great thing to worry about. Trust and faith kind of dies I an environment where are right and needs are guaranteed.
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When I look back over our 21 years together, I see that it was love, faith, and commitment that got us through. I think anyone contemplating marriage should take whatever time they need to be SURE of their decision. That may be quick for some, (hubby asked me to marry him about three months after we met) or years for others, but doubt and uncertainty will undermine any relationship.
Traditional marriage vows are for life, but there is no guarantee life will be long, or security for a young couple, only hopes that they will have a long and happy life together.
A woman marrying into a family can see what a man is like with his first wife, and what kind of father he is, if they have children. This is more then the first wife got, but then the first wife had years with the husband that wife number two can never have. But neither of them, nor the husband are promised tomorrow.
There is a saying I heard, one should "pray like it's all up to God, but work like it's all up to you."
In the spirit of that maybe we should plan for the future, but never forget to live in the moment, because life goes quickly.
After 15 years of thinking a sisterwife could be nice, my hopes are very tempered with reality, and I waste little time thinking about something so unlikely. I know God can bring someone suitable into our lives, but I don't really see a point in thinking about it. It can be a huge waste of energy and time.
Just some rambling thoughts here.
 
I should clarify that I was talking about future financial security. That's not something God necessarily gives us up front so it might not be something that husbands should focus too much of their energy on.
 
The one area where I really think this has the most merit is in providing for each wife in the event of the death of the husband. I would suppose that could be taken care of with a will, but in the absence of that the one with the marriage certificate gets everything.
 
I'm not really certain how to put all of the ideas into words that have inspired this post. Ill try to give some of the background for why I think that this perspective could be useful.

Trust and faith are interesting words. Often we use them through the lenses or perspective of faith in Christ. As Christ is the "Husband" of the body, so the man is to be the head of the house and the husband of the wife(s). However, it seems that there is a cultural difference between the type of trust that we give Christ and the trust given to a husband, for good reason. How many of us can prove that we love our spouse even unto death, (especially the death of the cross) without realizing that the trust that is generated by that sacrifice would be awarded posthumously!

My point in this is that often, as men, we expect the same level of trust and obedience from our wives that is due to Christ. I'm not saying that we shouldn't expect that, just that Christ has already laid out an incredible foundation of trust so that all we have to do is believe, commit, and walk! Do we not, as husbands, expect our wives to respect, honor and obey us as we do Christ? And yet how many of us have laid a similar foundation to ensure those responses?

For example, in the Biblical times, the spouse typically had a written marriage covenant called a ketubah. In it would be the promises of the Groom, the expectations of the Groom and the bride price. There would also be an attachment to inventory all the property of the bride coming into the marriage, (usually her dowry).
The promises of the Groom would include language to the effect that he would protect and provide for her, that he would cohabit with her, that he would provide the opportunity for children. His expectations was that she remain pure and committed to him, and in a state of readiness for his return.

In most monogamist relationships, the idea of reciprocated romantic love or being in love is sufficient to convince the spouse to be able to commit themselves to a marriage or to entrust their life to another. In many cases, this love combined with character and responsibility is sufficient to keep the marriage together. However, it has a sometimes fatal flaw, it is founded on projected expectations. We all have things that we expect from relationships. Often times, we project our expectations on our spouse (and they do the same) and then when the expectation is not realized, we become disappointed and dissatisfied. If this condition is not addressed, it leads to an unhappy marriage or ultimately divorce.

Though it seems a little daunting, I think with due dilligence that we could come up with a type of boilerplate "ketubah" that would outline our promises to our existing wife(s) while providing a certain level of confidence and managed expectations for incoming. If we use the words of our Adown as a pattern, it should be fairly easy and comprehensive.

Jesus never promised that there wouldn't be a yoke, just that His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Promises for example: I will never leave thee nor forsake thee. This is a great promise for existing as well as incoming. All that the Father has given to me will come to me, and him (or her) that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out. (If you covenant with me, I will not cast you out. Honesty, . . . My word is truth
Expectations: If you love me, keep my commandments.
 
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It would be interesting to see the women list their expectations and what they would like to see promised. Also perhaps what they would be willing to promise.

Likewise for the guys
 
I like the way you think! (Hey, VV76 - long time, no talk! Miss you guys!)

BibFam has made some overtures in this direction, trying to come up with some stock 'forms', so to speak, that could then be tailored to individual applications. This is an all-volunteer group with no budget, however, so stuff gets done on a "when time permits" basis, so no breath holding, please....

That said, like the other thread I just posted on re state laws, this might be a good subject for crowdsourcing. If we could pull together the core ideas of a biblical marriage agreement and agree on something, I'd be happy to draw up some informal documents and post to the website in the legal section as additional resources.

@nathan, this looks like a good topic for discussion at the upcoming retreat! @Verifyveritas76, are y'all coming? ;)
 
Suh-weet! SYT!
 
On this same topic, I find it interesting that many women, apparently are looking for a great home, a good husband, a stable family that they could be added to or included in and their own personal dynamic is one that is more career or outside the home service oriented. I.e: nursing, engineering, architecture, teaching etc. This dynamic is one that many of them do not wish to leave, after all, many of them love what they do. However, many of them have the natural desire for children of their own.

In a monogamous world, this becomes the impossible quest. To be all things at home for the husband and kids, and still manage to perform in a setting that is mentally and sometimes physically and emotionally challenging. In many ways, these very accomplished women are wise enough to realize that it would be difficult to raise children up in the admonition of the Lord and give them all of the mommy time or wifey time necessary for a healthy home.

For many men who tend to be more of the patriarchal mindset, this appears to present a dilemma and many apparently are not comfortable with bringing these women into covenant. I'll be the first to acknowledge that I'm not aware of all the reasons why they would feel uncomfortable, though I can think of some. Ultimately, if roles are defined and understood, (whether you use a Biblical model or not) peace, love, contentment and blessing can be had if you utilize a good model. Oddly enough, the patriarchal father seems to be exactly the man these women are looking for.

I wonder if the answer to this issue is to be found in a modern day ketubah. After all, the covenant does not have to be a one size fits all in the family. It just has to reflect authority, boundaries, promises and expectations, and conditions for exit.
 
aineo said:
I would suppose that could be taken care of with a will, but in the absence of that the one with the marriage certificate gets everything.
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This is true, which is why every man should have a Will at the very least. However, a "certified" wife could still sue against the Will in Court and if the Judge decides your Will is little weird, can throw it out. The next step up from a Will is a Trust. A Trust is much more legally binding and you can specify conditions that can actually be enforced. That's the way I may look into doing my Estate(1), regardless if plural or not.

(1) I don't know if an abused Versa and an electric mower count as an Estate, though.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
I wonder if the answer to this issue is to be found in a modern day ketubah. After all, the covenant does not have to be a one size fits all in the family. It just has to reflect authority, boundaries, promises and expectations, and conditions for exit.
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All good, just be advised that no agreement re child custody or support is going to be binding on any court in the union—the court will always do what it finds to be "in the best interest of the child(ren)". So treat that part as a 'statement of intent', but don't count on its being enforced.
 
Thanks Andrew. I hadn't gotten that far into thinking about children in the event of separation yet.

Any thoughts or solutions for that? Aside from the obvious, don't separate!
 
I'm happy to do anything that makes the new wife feel comfortable. If she wants to sign papers to say she gets a third of everything then that's fine. To me it doesn't make any difference, and perhaps I'm being naive here, but I don't start out a relationship by trying to figure out what to do if it breaks up. I go into it assuming it won't and I'll work my arse of to make sure it doesn't. I never signed anything with Samuel. We've always had a joint bank account etc. Everything has always been 'ours' and if another wife comes into the mix then everything will still be 'ours', but 'ours' will be a little bit bigger now.
In NZ if you've been living together for 3 years, married or not, then you're entitled to half of whatever you both have together when you split. I guess that covers it pretty well from a legal standpoint.
Am I being very naive here? Am I being too hopeful? Do I need a giant kick up the butt to get me out of my daydream? Is this the real life, or is this just fantasy? Will I be caught in a landslide, no escape from reality?
Perhaps only time will tell.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
Am I being very naive here? Am I being too hopeful? Do I need a giant kick up the butt to get me out of my daydream? Is this the real life, or is this just fantasy? Will I be caught in a landslide, no escape from reality?
Perhaps only time will tell.
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Time will certainly reveal in the end God's purpose in leading you, or any of us, to this understanding.

There is a saying "Perception IS reality," and that can be truer then we'd like to admit (especially for us of the emotionally sensitive gender).

I have watched some of my children, at different times, develop an adversarial perception of a particular sibling's actions. When this happens EVERYTHING that sibling does is viewed through a lens of guilty evil intentions. I have seen this in marriages too. When you BELIEVE someone loves you, you see any wrong or hurt as unintentional, when you DOUBT their love you also question their intent in any action that complicates your life, or hurts you. Making someone feel loved can be next to impossible, if their expectations, or "love language" is very different from your own, and few are really willing to accept responsibility for their own attitudes, and perceptions.

I feel very blessed to have the husband that I do, and I cannot imagine us ever parting, but it takes time for two people to grow together, and many a modern woman (or polywannabe couple) has unrealistic expectations.
This is where a contract can help bridge the gap between the life we imagine and reality, or the life the other party imagines compared to your own.

We had no contract, no state license, and little property of any kind when we started out. What each of us did have was a heart that wanted to do what was right, and a sincere desire for truth. We each agreed to be each other's number two, because we both believed our relationship with our Father in heaven should be top priority. I also had a strong belief in patriarchal authority, and wanted to respect my husband. We both believed too that God brought us together, and divorce should not be considered. With all this going for us, and the best of intentions it was still the written word of God that kept us together, and it is God that deserves the credit and glory.

So I would take a leap of faith with someone, if my husband believed God was behind the relationship, but neither of us would put our trust in a contract.
We might still want a contract, or to make a co-wife a beneficiary of one of the trusts, but our faith would always rest in God.

By the way, I can relate to hopeful, and I'm still hopeful, because when we let God rule our lives, odds have nothing to do with it, and anything is possible. :)
 
andrew said:
All good, just be advised that no agreement re child custody or support is going to be binding on any court in the union—the court will always do what it finds to be "in the best interest of the child(ren)". So treat that part as a 'statement of intent', but don't count on its being enforced.
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I'm glad you mentioned this, because its something that's been bothering me recently. As a single, I've been looking for information on pros and cons of marriage without a state license, and one thing that always seems to come up in every source is the legal doctrine of parens patriae (that the state may assume the right to act as the parent of its citizens). Contextually, its always mentioned in such a way that implies it is the marriage license which grants the state that authority. But that's never actually demonstrated directly, and I can't believe the state wouldn't assume that role simply due to the absence of a marriage license. That, in turn, leads me to distrust and discount what I read as mere fear-mongering. IOW, while there may well be other good reasons to choose to avoid a license, I'm not sure whether this particular issue has anything to do with that decision at all.
 
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