Replacement theology, and flock math (a shepherd's perspective)

[Joleneakamama]

As I am looking at my sheep, and having to do the difficult job of culling (removing the less desirable animals) I think thoughts that may seem disconnected and hard to follow.
I am glad that our Father God does not have limited resources, requiring Him to cut his flock down. He can keep any sheep He chooses. I also have an analogy relating to who the flock is.

I am breeding for a specific purpose. I want sheep that are owner friendly (easy to handle.....gentle) that make a good quantity of milk (because it's the best milk in the world!) that have udder conformation making extracting their milk fast and easy (Big teats for rapid hand milking)

To accomplish this end I am mixing sheep from many breeds, as it is the qualities the sheep possess that matter.

Israelite is a term that means a descendant of Jacob/Israel. It is a "bloodline" if you will. Some get hung up on who qualifies as one of that "breed" but it has more to do with the qualities of the individual sheep, then what "breed label" it wears.

Now to the math part.
My son was reading The Case for Christ the other day, and there was a conservative estimation given for how many "Jews" converted to Christ in the weeks following His resurrection. Realizing that since Antioch all have simply been called Christians, regardless of what "breed" they were before, and these people have intermarried for two thousand years, with faith being the primary "culling" factor. (Don't be unequally yolked) It is probable at this time that most of the "Gentiles" that make up the church are Israelites, even though most do not think of them as such.

So did the church replace Israel? Or did God just open up His "Flock Registry" to include other "breeds" (families of the earth) that possess the qualities He likes?

I personally believe enough mixing and intermarrying has happened for many christians to have most tribes in their family tree!... and that God accepts all who accept Christ.

I loved the "modern spectacles" analogy in the recent headcovering thread. But I think people look at the term Gentile with contact lenses in their eyes that superimpose "Non Jew/Not Israelite" over the word Gentile whenever they read, or even hear it.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Slumberfreeze]

No particular thought from me, just some scripture that might be related.

17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.

22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

 

[Mojo]

This has been hashed out before, and I agree with the statement that the early church (first 100years or so) would have had a huge genetic Hebrew contingent, and that many believers today may have unknown Hebrew genes, but probably not more so than they have African or Native American, or Arabic, or...so on.

But, as the gospel went forth, it went into much more genetically different territory.

Not so sure the Chinese underground church or west African converts have a huge Hebrew contingent (depending on your view of the diaspora).

You do have me more convinced on the misunderstanding of what goim or "Gentiles" are. I think that is more solidly plausible, but probably more as an encompassing term, not just non-practicing/wayward/helenized Hebrews.

 

[Mojo]

No particular thought from me, just some scripture that might be related.

17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.

22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Interesting link
http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/7307/how-does-plant-grafting-work

 

[Joleneakamama]

No particular thought from me, just some scripture that might be related.

17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.

22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Grafting is a subject I am quite familiar with. I have done fair bit of grafting myself, and am doing a lot more this year. It is interesting to me that the verse you referenced is talk in about olives being grafted to olives. That is not insignificant, Paul is stating plainly they are the same kind of people. The wild olives were those descended from the ten northern tribes. There is much scripture to support this. The note at the end about contrary to nature is not because olives are hard to graft to olives, but because it is extremely common to use wild stock to grow selected cultivated varieties. I could take scions (scion is a synonym for descendant, as is seed) of an English Walnut tree, and graft them onto a wild growing, deep tap rooted, Black Walnut, Likewise I have read of native populations in other countries being taught how to top work (graft over to change the fruit bearing wood) wild pear trees into premium fruit bearing varieties, where in the past they used to cut them down. Contrary to nature (common sense and common practice) would be grafting a wild thing on a cultivated root.

 

[Joleneakamama]

This has been hashed out before, and I agree with the statement that the early church (first 100years or so) would have had a huge genetic Hebrew contingent, and that many believers today may have unknown Hebrew genes, but probably not more so than they have African or Native American, or Arabic, or...so on.

From my perspective it has never really been discussed in depth. Rather people spent a lot of time arguing over tip of the iceberg stuff, rather then discussing the stuff under the surface.

I see a huge difference in our perspectives when reading the above quote. You mention a "huge genetic Hebrew contingent" but limit that influence to the first hundred or so years. We did many Bible studies with a good friend and neighbor who believes (as you appear to as well) that the Israelites of the ten tribes were basically assimilated into the other nations, losing their identity. Many Christians share this view, and don't believe themselves, or their fellow Christians are literal descendants of Israel.
The way we believe, it is not Israel that was assimilated, but rather the other nations, as each descendant is seed of Jacob/Israel, and like a seed or scion can change what kind of "fruit" is produced. A flock of sheep can easily double in number every year, and many shepherds cross breed with high quality rams to rapidly increase quality and quantity of their flock. Applying these terms to people sounds uncouth, but YHWH said He would "sow Israel" throughout all the earth, and the prophesies, and history, are consistent in showing He did just that.
Please read in Isaiah the first half of chapter 44, last half of 45, and then the first part of 54 keeping the thought in mind that the ten tribes who were never called Jews (but often called gentiles) are part of Israel too, and are often who these prophesies are to and about.

Another term for grafting is cloning. There is no such thing as a "pure bred" descendant. Joseph's two sons were half Egyptian, but 100% Israelite, and any Israelite can only produce.......yup, more Israelites.

I'd better stop for now, but I'd love to hear other's thoughts on Isaiah .... especially 54 ...... that woman and her children.

 

[Mojo]

I think I asked this before, but are you saying anyone who believes on Yeshua Hamashiach is a genetic Israelite, thereby maintaining chosen status from OT and into NT?

 

[Joleneakamama]

The term Israelite has to be completely redefined, to be applied to people that are not descended from Israel the man.
Isaiah 62:2 prophesied a new name for His servants, and since Antioch believers from all families of the earth are called Christians, and all are equally His servants.

So for clarity, anyone who converts, and becomes a follower of Christ is part of the body of believers, and there is no "class distinction" between Israelites and other "families of the earth." But when intermarriage happens between Israelites and non Israelites, the resulting children ARE literal, genetic (not spiritual) Israel.

Here is Isaiah 44
1 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.
2 This is what the LORD says— he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun,whom I have chosen.
3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.
4 They will spring up like grass in a meadow, like poplar trees by flowing streams.
5 Some will say, ‘I belong to the LORD’; others will call themselves by the name of Jacob; still others will write on their hand, ‘The LORD’s,’ and will take the name Israel.


Isaiah 45
25 But all the descendants of Israel will find deliverance in the LORDand will make their boast in him.

Gotta run for now. I'm very pressed for time these days, there are 1500 apple rootstocks that need to be grafted and planted.