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Meat Praying for the peace of Jerusalem

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steve

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It distressed me greatly that we were not able to discuss what is presently happening in history without getting shut down.
We are Biblically mandated to be spiritually involved, as in praying for the situation. The probability is that we are in the beginning of the last stages of the beginning of the end times.

What I propose is that I take responsibility for this thread and that mods/admins would honor my requirement to eliminate any comments that I object to. Yes, this is somewhat dictatorial, but it is a lot less than not letting the subject be discussed.

If there is a problem with anything that I write, please address it in the thread, as opposed to private messages.
 
Let me set the stage by saying that while Yah described the Israelite people as the apple of His eye, that doesn’t mean that the present country is the apple of His eye.
When the people rejected Him as their ultimate leader, the result was that they were conquered and dispersed.
Right now, I see them as a secular country with a Biblical name and a future foretold thousands of years ago. They are more of a miracle than they presently deserve to be, but aren’t we all?
Another big thing that we share with them is a common enemy, the enemy of our souls. The people who are trying to wipe them from the face of the Earth are merely his tools. And if we are any threat to him, he is presumably trying to get rid of us also.
 
One thing that struck me, and I haven’t seen any airplay on, is that it seems a focus for kicking off this particular offensive was the “dance festival”. A party out in the desert on Shabbat for which parents are now bitterly regretting allowing their children to attend. You might think that it shouldn’t matter, but remember that this war is coming from spiritual roots.
 
I fully support this discussion occurring under the eldership / oversight of @steve.

This needs to be a calm, rational discussion, in a loving spirit. I or @The Revolting Man will remove any posts that @steve asks are removed. If any specific person tries repeatedly to take the discussion in what @steve considers to be the wrong direction, they will be blocked from further replies to keep this thread peaceable - as it is not normally our policy to block individuals from individual threads I wanted to just state this up-front in case it is needed. Hopefully it will not be.
 
The "elephant in the room," that doesn't get much play either, except from those who ask the hard questions, is "how did THE world's most respected intelligence community (Mossad, Shin Bet) get so utterly bamboozled" by an invasion that was obviously planned for a long time, and required (as many IDF have now observed) a major stand-down of border patrols, military, observers, and rapid reaction teams, even attack helicopters and troops, to pull off?

And why were so many in the affected areas (yes, this is readily verifiable) DISARMED prior to that?

PS> I've addressed aspects of this in a number of shows since that final Holy Day of Sukkot (aka, Shabbat Shiva, or Simkah Torah, or other names) - including with author Daniel Holdings on the "Come out of her" Show on October 12th.
 
Those were definitely some problems, Mark.
One possibility is that they were more expecting an attack from Hezbollah and focused in that direction.
Be that as it may, “some people did something” as Ilhan Omar once said.

What I want to focus on is what is happening going forward, we aren’t getting much of the correct news.
One of the things that has happened in the last few days is that a couple of women were released. I don’t have any information on why they were given up. But I do know that the IDS female soldier who was “released” wasn’t actually released, but rescued.
One out of about 240 who are being held hostage. Pray for the safe return of the hostages, these people don’t value lives as we do.
 
Brace yourselves for the bad press about having to empty the hospitals before they are destroyed.
The Hamas “Pentagon” is directly under one of them. The others are also being used as shields.

What you are seeing is not an American style carpet-bombing, these tunnels have been being built and stocked for ten years, and they have been monitored for those ten years. The houses and other buildings that give access to the tunnels are being destroyed.

Pray that the innocent ones will be allowed and able to leave to safe places.
 
Our natural tendency in these discussions is to look at the past and start debating who is to blame for things - and that is how our political discussions devolve into tribalism.

@Mark C, yes there are lots of suspicious circumstances here - it's becoming clear that even the frontline IDF guards warned repeatedly that something was coming, in addition to the Egyptians, so the lack of preparation for it is highly fishy. We could discuss that at great length.

And @frederick, when you try to work out what happened in the past by reading both the Israeli and Palestinian perspectives on individual events, trying to ascertain the truth in between the propaganda, you soon find all was not as clear-cut as it first appeared. And that too we could discuss at great length.

But @steve has a different focus for this thread:
What I want to focus on is what is happening going forward, we aren’t getting much of the correct news.
 
What you are seeing is not an American style carpet-bombing, these tunnels have been being built and stocked for ten years, and they have been monitored for those ten years. The houses and other buildings that give access to the tunnels are being destroyed.
I'm not so sure about the carpet-bombing aspect. The IDF last week stated bluntly that "the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy". I agree it's not exactly carpet-bombing, as the technology is different now to WW2, but it's not that different either.
The reason that Hamas uses tunnels underneath buildings is because it makes them virtually impervious to bombs. Deep penetrating munitions are available to destroy tunnels, but are designed to go through soft soil and then blow up a tunnel. If you put the tunnel under high-rise buildings, they are under multiple concrete floors. A bomb will likely not penetrate all the floors, and will detonate somewhere in the building, destroying the building and leaving the tunnel intact. Then the tunnel is covered by a pile of rubble, which still gives basically as much protection as the building did - almost any bomb will detonate within the rubble, and still not penetrate to the tunnel.

So the existence of tunnels under buildings is the excuse to bomb the buildings - yet bombing the buildings will often serve no military purpose, as in many cases the civilian infrastructure will be destroyed but the military target remain intact.

They may be able to destroy the entrances to the tunnels that they know about, but that may just mean that they no longer know how to get into the tunnels, as the only entrances that remain are the ones that are secret. And they can't actually destroy Hamas unless they access the tunnels. Bombing doesn't help rescue hostages either (though it may kill them).

This practical reality may explain why "the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy" - the bombing may not actually be a core part of the operation, it may serve more of a psychological purpose.
 
So what are we likely to see going forward? It really wasn't clear at all at first - Israel obviously had to respond, but eliminating Hamas would still leave them with the problem of 2 million angry Palestinians in Gaza who'd probably just create a new Hamas to replace them. But there does appear to be a longer-term plan that is being gradually drip-fed into the media in small enough doses that it can be gradually accepted, because if it were introduced all at once there would be uproar.

It appears that Israel's plan is to ethnically cleanse Gaza, pushing out all the Arabs into tent cities in the Sinai, likely telling the world this is "temporary" - but they'll never actually return. Then take all of Gaza for Israel, thus eliminating the Gaza threat once and for all. An official government document stating that this is the preferred option has been leaked to the media.
When Netanyahu announced the start of the ground operation over the weekend, he specifically referred to 1 Samuel 15:2-3:
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
Netanyahu is clearly stating that the plan is much larger than just "crush Hamas", but involves plans for the civilian population also (Arab media is jumping to the conclusion that the plan is literal genocide as per v3, but I think it is more reasonable to take it figuratively, in that the plan does involve doing something to the civilian population but not necessarily exactly what was decreed to do to Amalek).

Now, this all relies on Egypt agreeing, and at this stage Egypt wants nothing to do with it and will not accept Gazan refugees, for a host of reasons. But the bombing campaign may force the issue, by making Gaza unliveable. Once enough infrastructure is destroyed, Egypt will come under pressure from not only Israel but the Gazan population and the Arab world in general to accept the Gazan population as refugees and allow those tent cities to be built. And the Gazan population, who at present would obviously prefer to live in their own homes than in a tent and would largely refuse to leave, may also see this as the lesser of two evils if their own homes no longer exist. So a campaign to destroy Gazan infrastructure is a crucial element to achieve this goal.

So I think we will see two things happening simultaneously:
  1. A very high risk military operation against Hamas, involving regular troops besieging Hamas in their tunnels, and special forces troops going underground to take them out and try to rescue hostages. Many IDF troops will die in this incredibly difficult task.
  2. An ongoing bombardment of civilian infrastructure, always with the excuse that a Hamas person was there (which nobody can ever verify), the end result of which will be that Gaza becomes completely unliveable.
This will likely take a very long time. The big question is whether Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, Turkey and possibly others follow through with their bellicose rhetoric and start a regional war. If that happens, all predictions become obsolete. But if there is no war the current direction things are heading is for Israel to gradually obliterate then take over Gaza.
 
US was never able to clear Vietcong tunnel network in Saigon. Doubt Isreal willcclear same network in Gaza. And tunnels can be safely flooded and built under water. So even harder than before.

Israel will be able to move armor in open areas. Only questions are will they be able to besiege proper cities or will start assaulting cities?

To defeat and clear Hamas they must assault, but thats close close quarters combat which implies high casualties.
 
For now I will just set out this thought;
Israel has a choice, they can either continue as before with an ongoing war declared on them by Hamas, or they can eliminate Hamas.
 
Update on the situation of the Christians in Gaza:
You may be aware that many of the Christians in Gaza City have been sheltering at the two main churches, the Orthodox Church of Saint Porphyrius and the Catholic Holy Family Church. However, Israel bombed very close to Saint Porphyrius a few days ago, heavily damaging one building on the church grounds and killing 18 people at the church.
Since then, everyone has moved to the Holy Family Church. There are now 560 people sheltering there.
Pray for their safety.
 
Update on the situation of the Christians in Gaza:
You may be aware that many of the Christians in Gaza City have been sheltering at the two main churches, the Orthodox Church of Saint Porphyrius and the Catholic Holy Family Church. However, Israel bombed very close to Saint Porphyrius a few days ago, heavily damaging one building on the church grounds and killing 18 people at the church.
Since then, everyone has moved to the Holy Family Church. There are now 560 people sheltering there.
Pray for their safety.
“As with many Palestinians in Gaza, Anton is determined to stay put. Huddled in the church with her three daughters, aged eight, nine and 12, she said the situation is getting worse every day.

“The Christians are suffering like any other Gaza people,” she said. “This is our land and we will not leave. Can you imagine that someone called you and forced you and your family to go to another place?”

“We will stay.””

I’m sorry, but if you insist on staying in a declared war zone, things are going to happen that no one wants to happen.
 
From an article about another popular/unpopular war:

The situation in Avdiivka. The reserves of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the city and on the territory of the plant are huge: ammunition, weapons, food and other technical means. The defense can be held for a long time.

Civilians had left the city long ago- the assault was only a matter of time, and everyone knew it. The APU also removed all heavy equipment and headquarters from the city”


Both the similarities and the differences jumped out at me.
 
Doubt Isreal willcclear same network in Gaza. And tunnels can be safely flooded and built under water. So even harder than before.
I’m not sure what your point is here, if Israel is able to flood the system (it’s not just a bunch of tunnels, it’s an entire fortress/city down there), especially with saltwater, they may be able to eliminate both materials of war and hiding places without having to clear them foot by foot.
Assuming that the system is hardened enough with concrete to hold water, which it seems to be. Because, you know, sand.
 
@Mark C, yes there are lots of suspicious circumstances here...
We will not understand where we ARE without at least a bit of truth about how we got here.

So what are we likely to see going forward?
The SAME SCENARIO repeated elsewhere, as WW III continues to escalate!

Regardless of "tribalism" - it should be clear that Israel had arguably the most secure, defended border on the planet. And when it was open for about seven hours, all hell broke loose, and many disarmed people were either executed, or sacrificed, or both.

The US has NO 'southern border.' In the last fiscal year, CBP [sic] admits that about 200 'known terrorists' have come in, but claims to not be able to say how many terrorists came in but weren't 'encountered' in the process. Among the ten million or so invaders known to be already dispersed throughout the country, are 100K military-age male Chinese [soldiers], and fighting-age males from organizations known to include MS-13, various Mexican drug cartels, and ISIS, Taliban...well, the list includes any enemies who WANTED to be here. (I can, and have, documented all that and much more for HNR.)

And NOW even the Feral Bunglers and Instigators admit (Wray, again, this week) that they realize Hamas, Hezbollah, et al, would LIKE to come on in. But not that the same people who planned what happened in Israel would have obviously known an open border for over two years made an even easier target. So they are without doubt ALREADY in, and probably have used their bus and plane tickets to join their cells.

The point is:

We had better ALL learn something, and fast. Although it's without question too late to "close the barn door," it's not to late to realize just how late the hour already is,

And, "pray for the peace of Jerusalem," has WORLDWIDE application.
 
And, "pray for the peace of Jerusalem," has WORLDWIDE application
And, praying for the peace of Jerusalem has direct bearing on our personal ability to defend...

Ps 137:5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem, May my right hand forget her skill.
6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth If I do not remember you, If I do not exalt Jerusalem Above my chief joy.
 
“As with many Palestinians in Gaza, Anton is determined to stay put. Huddled in the church with her three daughters, aged eight, nine and 12, she said the situation is getting worse every day.

“The Christians are suffering like any other Gaza people,” she said. “This is our land and we will not leave. Can you imagine that someone called you and forced you and your family to go to another place?”

“We will stay.””

I’m sorry, but if you insist on staying in a declared war zone, things are going to happen that no one wants to happen.
I'm just sharing the news as requested @steve, in a thread where we are trying to understand what is going on in order to inform our prayers.

I don't think it is our place to judge them. They are the ones there, on the ground, dealing with the reality before them. We may not understand the decisions they make, but they will make them for a reason. It is our job to pray for God to give them wisdom (so that if they truly are doing the wrong thing and there is a better option, He will impress that upon them) and pray for their protection.

There is a major difference between Gaza and Avdiivka - the residents of Avdiivka have actually had safe places to go to and safe roads to travel to get there for a long time. This is not the case for the Christians of Gaza City, as both the south and the roads to it are under bombardment. It is easy to sit in our comfortable, safe armchairs and criticise them from afar, but unprofitable. They are in a far more difficult situation than most of us have ever experienced in our lives. Let us pray for God to guide them.
 
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