Praise Music VS Traditional

[lutherangirl]

I was just wondering how people feel about praise music verses traditional hymns during worship service. I went to an Advent Service last night, and the guest pastor said that Praise Worship is all about making "you" feel good and the focus is on yourself not God. I really didn't know how to feel about that after I left church. I like both forms of music and didn't think I was glorifying myself singing along with the Praise music?

I like to hear how others feel about this.

In His Service,
Michelle

 

[redfox]

Our denomination as a whole has been shying away from what we call "I" music for many years now. We try to avoid songs that place the focus on ourselves rather than on God. Sometimes that can get tricky, as so much of the new music coming out of the Christian sector is so self focused, and much of it is well masked. It "sounds" good, and makes you "feel" good, but the focus is still more on the self and one's personal view of God, rather than who God really is.

Our job is to praise Him, not whine about how we're not adequate enough.

As for praise music vs. traditional, you can find issues anywhere. There is some good praise music available, and sometimes with a little creative restructuring you can change the focus of a song, and the same is true in the reverse, so I don't think it's as much an issue of traditional vs. praise, as much as it is the focus of the song.

 

[DaPastor]

I am a Biblicist. In other words, I do my best to make God's Word my final authority for my faith and practice. Scripture tells us:

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

For right now I want to emphaize the word "psalms" in the above passages. Did any of the psalms include "me" psalms or "whining" songs? A cursory look at the book of Psalms will inform anyone that many of these songs were not worshipful at all. Yet, we have Apostle Paul exhorting believers to sing them! "prayer in song", which is many times "me" centered! We need to be careful about making tradition our God - even traditional songs! I doubt David, Peter or Paul would recognize any of these "traditional songs", for that matter. Notice that the above Scriptures make it abundantly clear that there are no conditions placed upon singing the Psalms. In other words, Paul is not exhorting these believers to ignore the "me", or the "feel good" Psalms, for they all have their place in Biblical singing - at least according to Paul.

This reminds me of the early "hymn battles" of the Reformation. The Calvinists taught (and many still do today, for that matter) what they termed "the regulative principle of worship". Any song that was not a direct quote from the Bible was considered wrong, and should be rejected by true believers. In fact, hymns that did not quote Scripture were banned! Moreover, these were the first believers post Reformation that banned any form of instrumental musical accompaniment, and organs were ripped out of churches. The other Reformers were more balanced, like Martin Luther, who advocated the "normative principle of worship". The Normative Principle of Worship teaches that worship can include those elements that are not prohibited by Scripture. My view falls close to what some call "the informed principle of worship." I believe what Scripture teaches us about what worship is required, and what Scripture prohibits is forbidden. However, what Scripture does not prohibit is permissible to the extent that it does not contradict the principles of Scripture.

So, regarding "traditional hymns" vs. "praise songs", this is a man-made position based upon a love for tradition over Scripture. Sometimes the zeal for our traditions blinds us to Scripture. We are all guilty of this to some extent, but hopefully as we mature in the Lord we grow out of it.

 

[Faithful Servant]

Amen to that Pastor Randy!

Thanks so much for sharing that clear/biblical balanced bit of Truth regarding Worship! All great points and wise/lovely scripture references. As we know through what you've just shared, and through the heart-felt confessions/prayers & praises of David, we should and are encouraged to cry out to the Lord in both prayer & song. Sharing both our joys & sorrows before the Lord Almighty, while praising Him all the while. Truth is freeing, as there is Freedom in Christ! Not free to sin of course, or to go against Yeshua's will for our lives. However there is no freedom in legalisim, only bondage! God tells us out of his heart of compassion & concern for us all, that He hears the cries of our hearts, as He knows the motives of our hearts as well. Are the motives of our hearts to be pleasing to the Lord, or to be pleasing to man's traditions? Yeshua also encourages us all to bring all the joys, concerns & requests of our hearts to him, both in prayer & in song. As He inhabits the prayers & praises of His people! We can go to extremes with even good/Godly things, making idols of them and sometimes even new doctrines!

I appreciate your shared history of Calvinism as well. I didn't know how rigid and legalistic they were about worship. Another course of action that includes men adding to God's Holy words & wills for our lives. Yes I agree that it shouldn't be about "Praise Music vs. Traditional Man-made music." Yes it should line up with scripture and God's will, which allot of the modern Praise music does. Some of course does not, but that does not mean that the rest isn't "Praiseworthy or evil !" As with any issue in our lives, we shouldn't seek the approval of men or their man-made traditions. We should seek the approval of God himself through prayer and study. And then with a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit, we can proceed in worship according to the pure Godly motives of our hearts, through Yeshua's inspiration & leading in this & all other areas of our lives.

Great question Lutherangirl, I so appreciate your sweet thoughts & the concerns of your heart! Way to be a Berean (spelling!), as they say - seeking the scriptures & the Truth that is present in their pure & Holy state, and not just adhearing to man made traditions. Keep on Keepin on with Yeshua, family & friends! Thanks again for your wise & heart-felt wisdom as well Pastor Randy! I pray that everyone has a Joyous, Blessed & Christ-filled CHRISTmas!

Warm Wishes for Yeshua's Provisions, leading & Blessings!
FOR HIS GLORY ALONE,

Faithful (not perfect) Servant

I PRAY THAT I BE NOT A HINDRANCE!

 

[welltan]

I play the guitar in a local church. The leader does praise, worship, modern and old. There are a couple of points I would like to point out.

There are 25 scriptures where a "new song" is mentioned and approved. Traditional is not a new song.

But also Psalms contains what could be expressed as traditional songs as they have been scripture since David.

If you are a friend of God then sing "I am a Friend of God". David was. If you are free then sing "I am free" These are "I" songs.
If you are not a friend of God and am not free, there is no need to voice a musical objection it would already be obvious.

An individual can vary as much as a congregation as what music they like on a certain day. Some days someone can listen to a song and other times there is a temptation to rather have stayed home.

Sad songs do not work in church, slow and worshipful do but not sad or whining as Randy mentioned also. Much of the sad music has roots in a lament or desire for the Messiah, which of course we already have in Christ. The joy of the Lord is my strength, not the desire to be back in Egypt.

Dancing is found in scripture, and silence during dancing usually doesn't work. I should hope that David was not 'silent slow dancing' in front of the Ark of the Lord. That would have been odd. But would work in some churches.

Church music usually ends in prayer, where some pray and some head for the back door. In the original Greek and Hebrew this Exodus was the basis for the phrase "musical doors". (just kidding) :lol:

The song sung in Revelation 15:2-4 shows you can sing something close to “WE WILL WE WILL ROCK YOU” on a harp.
:arrow: Christians win

 

[DaPastor]

Too funny! The sad thing is that there was church up in Seattle a few years back that had men and women dancing with each other as if to communicate their love for the Savior - they were not their wives! Needless to say, this church does not exist anymore.

 

[CecilW]

Yes, Thanks, Pastor Randy and WelTan.

The "traditional hymns" are no more immune from self-focused, self-deprecating nonsense than are some of the new. Witness the lyrics "for such a worm as I". And yes, when they were new, there were sourpusses around to criticise them as well.

I appreciate DaPastor's history lesson on Calvinism.

The other side of the spectrum during the reformation had a number of our modern hymns originating in drinking songs and popular bar tunes. Martin Luther is said to have exclaimed, "That tune is entirely too good to leave to the devil!!!" If memory serves, that is the origin of "A Mighty Fortress", a powerful hymn to this day.

For a more recent example, try singing the words of Amaxing Grace to the tune of House of the Rising Sun -- another tune entirely too good to leave to the devil. It's powerful that way.

There IS one song that I can no longer bring myself to participate in. It is "Give Me That Old Time Religion, It's Good Enough For Me". I gotta follow where God leads TODAY, not turn back to His leadings in years gone by and proclaim them good enough for now! But that's my personal pet musical peeve. *grin*

The bottom line seems to be that if we are singing as a means of interacting with God, whether it be traditional hymns, modern worship music, or even some blues, the very fact of our doing so constitutes worship and is to the glory of God. He wants us to be REAL with Him. Not full of artificial sweetener.

And those who want to minister in their gift of criticism? Sir BumbleBerry shakes his lollipop in their general direction and says, "Ah ain' got TIME foh dat mess!"

 

[DaPastor]

I love some of the traditional hymns, but some of those hymns are so dry, dusty and wooden that I'm surprised the page in the hymnal doesn't turn petrified and fall out of the book.

 

[nathan]

Or as Larry Norman said it, Cecil: "Why should the Devil have all the good music! ... Jesus is the Rock and he rolled my blues away!". Oh just watch it here, if you don't know Larry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWh8-FPelHU

While Larry is my all time favorite Christian music to just listen to, when it comes to worship, I also enjoy old and new, and we try to sing both meaningful modern and some hymns at retreats now. I grew up in a church that knew how to sing them, my favorite then was "The Old Rugged Cross", then "Revive us, O Lord", right now, it's probably "Come thou Fount". How can you top this for lyrics (not to mention the great obscure Biblical reference to "Ebenezer"):

O to grace how great a debtor
Daily I’m constrained to be!
Let Thy goodness, like a fetter,
Bind my wandering heart to Thee.
Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here’s my heart Lord, take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

I haven't found any of the classic hymns to be dry and dusty, it's just wooden churches that don't know how to sing them! You can't sing worship songs sitting down, or standing still!

 

[CecilW]

... some of those hymns are so dry, dusty and wooden that I'm surprised the page in the hymnal doesn't turn petrified and fall out of the book.

That's just 'cause I'm not playing them! :lol: I've also gotten in more trouble for the way I played out of the hymnal!!! But everybody SANG! :lol:

 

[sweetlissa]

I gotta follow where God leads TODAY, not turn back to His leadings in years gone by and proclaim them good enough for now! But that's my personal pet musical peeve. *grin*

Okay, I am completely confused. I love contemporary Christian worship music, don't get me wrong...

But just to play the other guys advocate I have seen on many other threads the quote that says "GOD DOESN'T CHANGE" so using that as a guide, how is "where God leads TODAY" any different from where he lead say a hundred years ago?

Okay, yes dapastor, I am thinking too much again...

SweetLissa

 

[CecilW]

... I have seen on many other threads the quote that says "GOD DOESN'T CHANGE" so using that as a guide, how is "where God leads TODAY" any different from where he lead say a hundred years ago?

Ummm... I think I confused 2 issues for ya, Lissa.

God doesn't change. That is true. But our perception of Him does. Truths from His word may be lost sight of, then later rediscovered. Or discovered for the first time in our individual lives.

Example: I was raised in the Seventh-day Adventist version of Christianity. That certainly didn't include PM. In fact, the families in which I was raised (parents, grandparents, etc.) were very legalistic. I have strong memories of my gandmother saying that I needed to be good so that Jesus could love me. I was 12 years old, in 8th grade at church school before I first remember ever HEARING the term "Righteousness by Faith"!!! But in the several years following, that issue caused a huge brouhaha in the denomination.

Did God accept the life and best-service devotion of my grandfather who died right about then, presumably without ever learning what all the fuss was about? I don't doubt it for a moment.

Was I free to say, "It was good enough for Grandpa", and turn away from an understanding of Righteousness by Faith in favor of more dead legalism? Not on your LIFE!!!

Nowadays, God has led me to undestand PM fom His word. Am I free to turn away from this truth and return to the religion of my mother, who says it must be error or the SdA denomination would already be teaching it? No way. DON'T give me that old time religion. It ISN'T good enough for me. God is doing something new -- which amounts to restoring something old -- around me, and I want to be part of it.

That is not meant to disparage the lives of those past. They took a step or ten forward from the ignorance in which they lived, as God led in their lives. I aspire to mimic their xeal and trust in Divine guidance. So, in that respect, Yes, give me that old time religion.

However, as sung and seeming meant all too often, the song seems to be a turning away from the new and clinging to the old PRACTICES andTHEOLOGIES, and rejeting of whatever is new. It bolsters the cy, "But that's not the way we've ALWAYS DONE it!"

Personally, that offends my sense of what God wants to have happen. If the ways Grandpa's generation did religion wee "good enough", Jesus would have come before this, right? Or at least such seems a logical assumption. So, it ISN'T good enough for me. I want MORE! Whatever, and wherever God leads today -- while understanding that it is ME, not HE who needs to change.

Thus my personal pet peeve about that one song. Which was kinda off-track as regards this thread, but sorta related. Cause the same folks who tend to sing that song with gusto, in my experience, are the same folks who complain bitterly about the new music in favor of the old, about which THEIR forefathers bitterly complained when it was new in favor of the old, about which THEIR forefathers bitterly ... you get the picture.

So far as I can tell, God's word nowhere attaches moral significance to a style of music -- to tempo, rhythm, chord structure or sequence, harmony, counterpoint or lack thereof, instrumentation, etc. So Gregorian Chant and Andre Crouche and everything in between are perfectly acceptable. Instead, Paul offers the admonition that in WHATEVER we do, which would include making music and dancing, to do ALL to the glory of God.

One of those New Leadings, for me, came out in this area. I was taught as a child that there WAS moral significance to those things. That, in fact, it was advisable to stay away from minor, minor 7ths, 7ths, major 7th, 9th, and other such chords as they made the music too emotionally poweful and could lead to the undesirable effect of emotionalism. In fact, it said so in the official Church Manual!

As an adult, reading for my ownself, I rejected that notion, coming to undestand that music should accompany and enhance the emotion, whether it be rejoicing or worship. Oops. I was about to say "I could go on and on", but it seems I just DID! :lol: I'm now shutting UP!

 

[Anonymous]

Speaking for myself; I attended a Baptist school while growing up and we sang only hymns. At the time, I thought the hymns were very boring and I grew to dislike them. When "Contempory Christian Music" came on the scene, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. However, that was a long time ago and while I still love "CCM", I have developed a love for classic hymns as well. I understand the hymns now; I understand their meaning and they speak to me in a way they never did when I was very young.
It's also a "heart" issue. If we're approaching God with the right spirit, then I don't think it matters what "type" of music it is, as long as it glorifies God.
Fairlight

 

[welltan]

I have heard you play the piano Cecil and I love your playing. Sometime at a retreat send the music and chords to me ahead of time and we could play together. I am not that good by myself anyway.

 

[CecilW]

I have heard you play the piano Cecil and I love your playing. Sometime at a retreat send the music and chords to me ahead of time and we could play together.

Thanks for the compliment.

I'd like that! I think we've got some other fret, keyboard, and rhythm players here as well. Would be a blast to play together. Cut a worship album, entitled "Father, Forgive Them", by Jesus and the Pligs ! :lol:

 

[love4me]

I think you should. I'll buy a copy!

 

[Anonymous]

I hate to be contradictory, but the regulative form of worship (followed by "Calvinists") doesn't forbid hymns from a Christian's life, instead it takes the very scriptural basis of including in the Church service only the things that the Bible mentions were included in the New Testament church's worship.

These include the reading of the Law, the singing of Psalms (commonly called Psalters), prayer, and the preaching of the Word. The regulative priciple is in no way "legalistic" as some have called it, rather, it is giving clear attention to exactly what the Word of God says, and CHOOSING to do only what the Word of God says during the worship service.

Does this make other kinds of worship wrong? No, it is simply an issue of personal conviction; a person's (or group of people) desire to choose a more narrow way, so that the focus of worship stays on Christ. A group of people choosing to do things a more specific way shouldn't cause those who don't follow their practices to feel condemnation, and vice-versa.

 

[lutherangirl]

Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts. I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees that both forms of music used properly, like the seasons in Ecclesiastes, can be used in worship settings. I just hope that the "traditionalists" that are so against singing "praise music" aren't wrapped up in secular music outside the church, because that to me would seem hypoctrical.

Now our family has to come to a retreat to hear the deut of Cecil W and Welltan. Can you perform this is say in 2011, because my family is planning on attending a retreat then?

Blessings,
Michelle

 

[DaPastor]

Hi Deut,

I hate to be contradictory, but the regulative form of worship (followed by "Calvinists") doesn't forbid hymns from a Christian's life, instead it takes the very scriptural basis of including in the Church service only the things that the Bible mentions were included in the New Testament church's worship.

Actually Deut, not only did the original regulative principle of worship forbid hymns, for many it forbid any singing other than the Psalms. John Calvin’s (the founder of Calvinism) church in Geneva, except for singing the Ten Commandments and the Lord’s Prayer, exclusively used the Psalms in worship. Moreover, to this day, there are churches in the Reformed family which will only sing the Psalms based upon original Calvinism. In fact, there are many Calvinists today that believe it is liberalism to include anything other than the Psalms:

Here is one: http://www.westminsterconfession.org/wo ... orship.php

Moreover, since the Scriptures I already quoted make it abundantly clear that the Psalms are to be sung as a means of teaching the Word, it should be well noted that the Psalms exhort praise to God...

With our Voice

1. Through Speaking (as opposed to keeping silent)

Psalm 34:1 says, "I will extol the Lord at all times; his praise will always be on my lips."

2. Through Shouting

Psalm 27:6 says, "Then my head will be exalted above the enemies who surround me; at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy; I will sing and make music to the Lord."

3. Through Singing

Psalm 47:6 says, "Sing praises to God, sing praises to our King, sing praises." With our Posture

1.Through Bowing

Psalm 95:6 says, "Come let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the Lord our Maker."

2. Through Standing

Psalm 119:120 says, "My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws."

3. Through Dancing

Psalm 149:3 says, "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp."

With our Hands

1. Through Playing all Manner of Instrument

Psa 150:3-5 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; praise Him with the harp and lyre. Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; praise Him with strings and pipes. Praise Him on the sounding cymbals; praise Him with the resounding cymbals.

Psalm 33:2, 3 says, "Praise the Lord with the harp; make music to him on the ten stringed lyre. Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy."

2. Through Clapping our Hands

Psalm 47:1 says, "Clap your hands, all you nations; shout to God with cries of joy."

3. Through Lifting of our Hands

Psalm 63:4 says, "I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands."

These include the reading of the Law, the singing of Psalms (commonly called Psalters), prayer, and the preaching of the Word. The regulative principle is in no way "legalistic" as some have called it, rather, it is giving clear attention to exactly what the Word of God says, and CHOOSING to do only what the Word of God says during the worship service.

From my perspective, it is legalistic because it both takes away and adds to the Scripture in the name of following Scripture. For example, it tells the people to sing the Psalms (which Scripture tells us to do), yet, the same passages say to use the Psalms for teaching, which in many cases (like the passages above) are ignored when it comes to practicing Biblical worship. Furthermore, the Scriptures that I quoted before include not only Psalms, but hymns and spiritual songs, which would take too long to exegete fully in this already long post. So, I do not believe the regulative principle as defined is actually “CHOOSING to do what the Word says during the worship service.”

Does this make other kinds of worship wrong? No, it is simply an issue of personal conviction; a person's (or group of people) desire to choose a more narrow way, so that the focus of worship stays on Christ. A group of people choosing to do things a more specific way shouldn't cause those who don't follow their practices to feel condemnation, and vice-versa.

Well, according to the Calvinists who still truly practice the original regulative principle of worship, all other worship is wrong!

 

[Chaplain]

For me, I like both the old stuff and the praise music. It all depends on my frame of mind as to which I listen to at any given time.