Personal Growth/church Question

[Mark C]

Do you personally feel church is a necessity for spiritual growth?? I always felt that church should be a place for fellowship and personal growth can happen anywhere when it comes to the Awesome Power of God. I feel as if I am backsliding for NOT attending church, but is this a LIE that Satan has implanted in my heart?

Well, Nikki, I guess I will start this off with a perspective that you won't hear at a 501(c)3 church, in spite of the oft-quoted "do not forsake the gathering together".

There also is a time to "come out of her, My people" ...that ye partake not of the coming plagues. There are, in my own observation, far more admonitions to "be separate" from those who have "failed to teach the difference" between the clean and unclean, the kadosh (set-apart, or 'holy') and the profane, and the like, than those which are claimed to support being yoked regardless. The second part of Hosea 4:6 (which if less often quoted than the first part) is another witness of the same lesson.

The study and understanding of God's ordinances for marriage are very important, and I believe they are an excellent "litmus test" for whether teachers are themselves "teachable" or not, but they are only part of the picture. My contention has long been that God is consistent, that He says "I change NOT", and repeatedly tells us that He came not to change "one yod or tiddle" so long as heaven and earth have not passed away. He is True, even if fallen men have lied about Him for centuries.

A "church" which is chartered and created by and in accord with the rules of the prince of this world, and which tries to teach that He is inconsistent and fickle, like a pagan imitation, or that He did away with His own teaching in righteousness, is not something He tells us to be gathered into. This is not a time to be "spewed from His mouth".

Blessings,

Mark

 

[rusty_armor]

Guten Morgen!

I'm conflicted at the moment and I was hoping for some guidance and direction from like minded believers I'm conflicted in my regards to church. I have been in limbo between going to church and not attending.

Wow Nikki!

I ended up writing a three page rant on the unfairness of it all, but just couldn’t post it here. I am slowly learning that lamenting and ranting is best done in privacy!

We left our old church where I had served many years as Trustee, Shamish (sort of liturgical director) and Deacon. I already knew what the congregation’s stance on the issue of multiple wives would be, given that the pastor previously had addressed the subject from the pulpit as well as informally in leadership meetings. I couldn’t come up with a way to directly present the issue without opening the wives to vilification, and chose to simply leave and relocate to a new area. The congregation is ignorant of our reasons for leaving to this very day.

It is painful for us, especially the wives, who were so involved in serving the congregation. As each holy day rolls on by, and we quietly observe it in our home, we recall the frenetic hustle and bustle of preparing for the day. The wives especially miss it, and it adds a melancholy note to our feasts and fasts.

One of my mentors from the old congregation suggested that I attend a main stream congregation, and pull off a small following from it to share in our Shabbat table. But God warned me years ago about putting my hands to another’s pulpit, and stealing from his flock, so I prefer to give that approach a very wide berth.

So we still remain unchurched today, and either drive sixteen hours to our old congregation, or two and a half hours to a sister congregation for special celebrations. Painfully we sit next to each other, but not with the ease and familiarity of a man with his wife. Yeah, it is hard, but still, we optimistically look for His for his provision in all of this.

I hope you can resolve the loneliness too …

~Rusty

 

[Tlaloc]

Nikki,

I think its pretty clear that being with Christians in study, fellowship, and worship is a requirement of the Christian walk. That said, you cant really have communion with Christians that are not on the same spiritual track as you. Its good you have fellowship meetings with Christians, that is worth quite a lot. I suppose one could be sustained for quite a while with even fellowship only on the internet so long as they where in a group of people they would consider knowledgeable and allowed the other people to keep them in check, but in the long run you really must make an effort to know other Christians in you're area. Clearly you do that even when you cannot be comfortable with a church per se.

The risk of institutionalized church is that it tends to use its authority to support the status quo, cutting down both good and bad idea that do not mesh with dogmas. The risk of the small group is just the opposite, it is hard to keep ideas in check, filter out bad ideas, and keep the group form going onto a theological fringe. Neither setup is inherently bad or better than the other, but in the large church you must focus on thinking for ones self, and in the small group you must focus on not letting peoples ideas get out of control.

Be wary of Mormons, especially as a polygamist, the most aggressive anti polygamy people in our area are Mormon. More to the point, while we have a very great number of superficial similarities, the deeper you go the further from Christianity they lead, if you're fundamentalist like me its not going to be a place you can find fellowship. Up front and in their opening presentations we believe almost exactly the same things, but the nuances of their belief and in the more esoteric things we get further and further apart. That said, they are interesting, and worth knowing, and good for friendship and discussion, but they won't do for fellowship.


I've been without a church for periods, like after moves and things, and a church usually finds me, even if it takes a year or so. I may wind up without one again, but I won't be without Christians I know and can fellowship with, and I'm comfortable with that if that's all I can have. It seems you have that fellowship as well, so you shouldn't feel bad. If circumstances prevent you from being in a church then it cannot be sin.

The situation itself probably deserves the full rant Rusty prepared, so I'll leave that to him.

God bless you,

Jair

 

[welltan]

Good points all on this subject. I would like to add a couple of thoughts.

Once God reveals to you the truth about plural from a biblical view and a conviction from God, it will not go away. Learning to live with something from God that your Christian friends and family do not accept is not easy. One of the things that happens is that your very close church friends that you see weekly or so, now seem less personal as you have something you can not share with them. One solution of course is to be less involved. There is no shame in placing your energies elsewhere. Another solution is to share the conviction with Christians as God leads and not before. Just being willing to do this (and this does not mean God will lead you to tell everyone) will revalidate your Christian involvement to yourself and your new truth is a seed waiting to be planted as God leads. (Also be familiar with the scriptural idea of stony/good ground, etc). Another point is that like-minded people, even Christians, have a tendency to flock together. If God had called you to a mission field five years ago, by now a good number of your current best Christian friends might be from your location on the mission field, rather than your local church at home. We on this forum and at retreats hopefully are not here to supplant your other Christian friends, but rather to be some new brothers and sisters where you can share. We may not all agree about doctrine, but we agree that we need each other. Some Christians drink alcohol, some don't. Some eat meat, some don't. Some believe in plural and some don't. It is possible to handle it in a mature way and avoid conflict when possible. It is also helpful to know that this is a truth that Christ gave you and your testimony centered around Christ will allow Christ to guide your words. Don't allow it to be just a moral issue.
My involvement in local churches continues, but so does my involvement in Biblical Families. God may have led you here for more than just theological/doctrine discussion. Welcome aboard. You wanted to do something for Christ. Your ship has sailed and you made it. Rest assured this mission is more about Christ than plural. If this truth can help lead some to Christ and salvage or add growth to Christians, then it is a great mission. Some of you know that this mission and truth is a culmination of events in your life.

 

[jay c]

I could stand in the lobby for hours and NO ONE will say anything to me.

Sounds like a great reason to be somewhere else! If a congregation is so large that every member doesn't have some meaningful role to play, then it's time for a split.

 

[lutherangirl]

Guten Morgen!

I'm conflicted at the moment and I was hoping for some guidance and direction from like minded believers I'm conflicted in my regards to church. I have been in limbo between going to church and not attending. There are several reasons for this;

I have had a deep spiritual battle about where I truly belong. I consider myself Christian Fundamentalist (I know that Fundamentalist scares a lot of people, but I wear it as a badge of honor!) I have been attending a nondenominational church because it was casual dressed and I really liked the style of worship. However, since my personal revelation about aspects of the bible (Polygamy, spiritual gifts, specific laws, Christ's miracles, Moses as the author of the first five books of the bible, etc) I feel as if I do not fit in anymore. I have been researching different faiths for a place to "fit in." I even spoke with missionaries about the MORMON faith because of my belief in Polygamy!! At the moment, I attending Monday Night Fellowship with Biblical families to mingle with other believers and not attending ANY church.

My second reason is it is a very LARGE church and I am just a "number" when I attend it. I could stand in the lobby for hours and NO ONE will say anything to me. Because of it's growth, it has gotten very cliquish with the women groups. It's lost is "bringing people to God" and substituted it for bringing in the masses for money, in my opinion. I can not live out what I believe are my spiritual gifts. I have been blessed with the gift of music and leadership and I have been shot down every time I try to express interest in volunteering my gifts. Therefore, I feel stuck between dragging myself to volunteer at the nursery (giving myself the middle finger the entire time I'm there, but slapping on the happy "Christian" face) and hanging out with women that make me awful about my firm beliefs and my music, tv shows, etc (LONG story).

Do you personally feel church is a necessity for spiritual growth?? I always felt that church should be a place for fellowship and personal growth can happen anywhere when it comes to the Awesome Power of God. I feel as if I am backsliding for NOT attending church, but is this a LIE that Satan has implanted in my heart?

My husband and I did find a Fundamental Church in Germany and we plan on attending it as soon as we get there in August So that is good news!

Thanks for your help

In Christ's love and Mine
Nikki

 

[lutherangirl]

Nikki,

I tried to post part of your quote and it didn't turn out like I wanted. I wanted to say that I feel your pain regarding trying to find another church. I too have recently felt the church I'm attending isn't meeting my needs with my knew found feelings toward polygamy, etc.

I do know that I'm stronger when I do worship with other Christians regularly, so to go without worshipping with a community of believers would be difficult. I think you should do some research before jumping in the Mormon religion, because it is very different regarding eternity and who Jesus is compared to the Christianity.

I'm sorry that you felt over looked when you shared you would like to help use your talents of music, etc. That happens in my church, too. I mean heaven forbid if a new lady is volunteering and doesn't put the salt and pepper on the table "the way it has always been put before."

Again, sorry I messed up the quote post thing.

God's Blessings,
Michelle

 

[jwh]

welltan,

i enjoyed your input on this, as i havent been to church in quite some time, bust have been seeking the Lord over the last several months
im a worldy man, & i dont know where God will take me, but i do know he is letting me see Him & He is softening my heart to trust Him, & my heart is willing to follow Him

I am a musician, secular if you would call it that, a songwriter so im not out in bars playing old wore out cover tunes every weekend for spare change, but at times i do play where alchohol is served.....my drummer is a born again, he asked me to perform in his churches easter show(asked me several months ago), & i really wanted to, & i prayed about it, but i declined because of the hidden stuff i had in my closet with my previous affair & at that time it was up in the air if any "dirty laundry" would come out i dint want to be a stumbling block to other believers, or a trouble to him, i know how churches can be & even spirit filled churches, pretty vindicative at times, like "what did you bring that sinner here to perform as one of the saints"...

on a similar note, i worship God in music often, some times i score the arriangments & most often i just worship Him in spirit & truth, i have never released a "christian" record, or even recorded any, im not trying to impress man or edify the church, i have simply been worshipping God with a gift he gave me..
so recently during a worship session, i felt the Lord saying i may have to sing & play in a worship service at some point & time, my question to the Lord was, "what do i tell them, im not a christian musician", the Lord spoke that i would tell them "i am a christian, and i am a musician, & these are some songs i have written for my Father"................sounded reasonable to me

didnt mean to derail you nikki!!! just thought that was a good place to toss that in

God Bless You in your search

love
j

 

[Clyde Pilkington]

Nikki,

I was touched by some of your comments, as well as others who have shared in this post. I would like to offer to you my own personal testimony.

After pastoring a church for 15 years, I began to question the legitimacy of the human organization of "church," including my own role in this man-made system. This was not an easy or quick process. One great test that weighed heavily upon my heart was my "job security" within the framework of "full-time Christian service."

Ultimately conscience would not allow my conduct of life to contradict understood truth. The conscience of truth continued its steady and diligent work in my heart. How could I pawn off my own human organization as God's church? Much time was devoted to the study of the true nature of the church.

I had become so very tired of the sectarianism within the Body of Christ. I was so tired of having any part in this division (of "us" vs. "them"). I so longed NOT to be associated with the operation of ANY religious organization. I so longed to be a FREE member of Christ's Body and NOT a member of ANYthing else.

One thing that increasingly lay heavy on my own heart was my understanding of what true ministry was. The "ministry" has been taken away from Christ's Body and it has been institutionalized. I began to realize that God had not authorized our man-made institutions (my own included!) to store and manage His ministries and resources. The religious system has even attempted to institutionalize God Himself! We can go to see God in His institutionalized condition on Sunday mornings and then the rest of the week is ours (like the way our society deals with our elderly relatives in nursing homes!) We give this institution some of our finances, and then the rest of the money is ours! How convenient religion is. How satisfying to the flesh; how soothing to the conscience -but it all made my heart ache - badly, and my eyes fill with tears; and here I was, a part of it! Why did I continue? Was it for the benefit of being "non-profit," and having an IRS recognized "charitable contribution"? Of being an official governmental 501(c)(3)?

I finally reached a climax of conviction - I resignation from my own "church" organization. I just had to be true to the Lord, and to myself - as the Lord had fashioned me - and to what I had come to see in the Scriptures. I determined that I would just "be the church" instead of "going to church." I would "be the church" outside the camp of religious structure with any who I found there.

God developed in my heart a mindset to love His truth, and to walk in the light that He currently has given me to see - wherever it would lead me. He taught me to be free - to stand fast in my Father's liberty and not to be brought into bondage - to anyone or anything.

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:36).

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

He taught me that the fruit of spiritual life is liberty; that He wants me to be free to live, to serve, to love - and not to ever give up our freeman status!

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (II Corinthians 3:17).

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1).

God taught me to be my own man before Him, to not allow anyone to change who He had made me - and is making me. He taught me to do what I do before Him only, and as unto Him only, regardless of what anyone thinks; to do so whether or not anyone agrees with me or joins me. He taught me that faithfulness was more important than supposed "success" as all real success will only be determined at the Judgment Seat of Christ. He taught me that the bottom line was being faithful to where I was in my journey with Him - even if it is just with my family!

He taught me to live fully and freely in the liberty that I had been given in Christ. He taught me not only to live in this liberty myself, but to afford it to all those around me as well - allowing others to follow their own heart and studies as they believe that the Lord may be leading them.

I have many dear friends who have not yet caught a glimpse of the life and ministry of Christ in our lives - in its SIMPLICITY and FREEDOM, completely apart from the religious system - I love them regardless, even if they never agree with my personal conclusions and convictions. We are eternally brothers!

None of what I share here is in any way intended to pass judgment on "another man' servant" (Romans 14:4). Many dear and precious saints are effective and valuable servants for our Lord within the religious system. I do not value them any less for this. I do not intend to pass my judgment or condemnation upon them. I value their service for God, and I would not change their activities even if I could. I have enough to do managing the affairs of my own life. At the same time, I can't do things that they do. (As they can't do things that I am doing - our understandings are different and that's alright.)

These are just the steps that I have personally taken to this place in my life. They are not offered as a pattern for any other believer. By God's grace, this is not the end of my journey, but only its midstream reflection. Let each one of us follow the Lord out of the sincerity of our own hearts, each one being fully persuaded in their own mind, as we enjoys the Great Adventure of Faith.

"Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" (Romans 14:5).

Enjoying the Life of God, outside the camp (Hebrews 13:13),
My love to each of you!

PA Happy Life

 

[DrRay777]

PA,

What a great story! Welcome to the narrow path. Much of the writings that God has had me do are directed at just the thing that you spoke here about in your life's testimony, especially my teaching entitled, 'Christianity 101'. According to James chapter 3, there are two types of wisdom in operation in the earth, one from God and one from Satan, (a.k.a., earthly or human wisdom). If there is any of the latter in the mix, the whole lump is defiled. After Joyce Meyer told the story about the father who put a pinch of dog poop in the family brownie mix, in order to illustrate how any sex and violence in a movie made it unacceptable for his teens, (even if it was just a little), we call it the 'dog poop in the brownie' concept. The dad told the teens just before they ate the brownies that he had put this special ingredient into the brownie mix and that it was so little that they would not even taste it. All the other ingredients were the traditional high quality ones normally used in the fine family recipe. Needless to say, none of the teens ate the tainted brownies knowing that there was ANY dog poop in them. When people tell me that their church teaches such and such, which I know does not line up with the Word, I often ask just how much dog poop they would like in their brownie? Jesus called it leaven. It is rooted and grounded in pride and as you say will not hold water on Judgment Day.

I usually cut people off when they preface a statement by, "Well, what I think is...", because I do not want to know what they think. If they are not going to tell me what God told them, then I am not really interested, because they are about to spew a doctrine of demons on me and then I will have to cast that thought out of my mind. Just consider the number of demonic strongholds that are built up in peoples’ minds week after week and year after year while sitting in dead churches, listening to all this demonic wisdom being spoken to them and their loved ones, out of the mouths of preachers that they hold in reverence. No wonder when we come to these people with the truth they reject it! This may add some color to the description of mainstream Christianity that you gave us a glimpse of from the inside.

The problem with so many of the preachers and teachers of the Word today is that, unlike you, they fear the loss of money in the form of salary or donations more than they fear God. This is why I never solicit donations or charge for my book or teachings and I work to pay for the ministry that God has put me in. What God has in His grace freely given me, I freely give to others and will donate my time to personally teach them these things and help them understand as well. All of the teachings and book that God gave me are freely available on the web site He had me build. No one can ever rightfully accuse me of doing it for the money, (though they have already made the accusation falsely). However, because I have dedicated everything I have and earn to God, we are well taken care of. Because most ˜men of the clothâ, (and women too) are so locked in to the money system that has been set up in corporate religion, they carry on replacing the commandments of God with the doctrines of men, (really doctrines of demons) and get more and more numb to the truth as time goes on, until eventually many of them are given over to a debased mind. No wonder the church that stands in the name of our precious Lord is so full of sin, sickness and financial turmoil! What then has changed in 2,000 years?

I would be interested in knowing more of your story, as it sounds very similar to mine, (though I was never truly on the inside in fullness). I hope others on this site who are still glued to the mainstream Christian bandwagon will read this and take heed, before it is too late. I never tell people to leave their church, as when they see the truth and are made free, they will likely be the only light in that darkness. If they simply begin to speak and live the truth, they will most likely be asked to leave. Otherwise, God will tell them when to leave.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

I'm conflicted in my regards to church. I have been in limbo between going to church and not attending.

Nikki,
I have actually felt more liberated when I left the church. I felt as though I was more able to follow what Yahuweh was teaching me as opposed to what the preacher had on his agenda. It freed me up to study and learn anything and everything from Genesis to Revelation and everything from marriage to child rearing to finances to even the calendar. Most of the churches that I attended earlier in life were just Jesus this and salvation that. They didn't really teach anything else. Do not get me wrong though. I think we should be going out to the lost and bringing them into the fold, but the church is for the converted. It should be a place of teaching and learning. Not the same old worn out subject sermon after sermon preached to people who do not need that anymore. After leaving the church I was able to study and learn without anyone's agenda. Just study and learn whatever I wanted to and it seemed as though each subject I started on lead on a tangent into another subject and this definitely would not have happened within the church.

I do like the fellowship of church though. You are able to get other perspectives and learn from those more educated than yourself, but all with a grain of salt though until proven. The fellowship was the biggest thing. And that is something that I am looking forward to finding in the future if something local becomes available. That is one of the reasons that I love our retreats so much. You know that there is no one there with an agenda and you get lots of fellowship time with some great people.

 

[QMCO5]

I can appreciate Nikki's dilemma and obviously others have made a similar decision to leave and seek fellowship elsewhere or in some cases seek no fellowship. Scripture makes it very clear that our lives as disciples are lived in community. There are no "Lone Ranger" disciples in the Bible. The Messiah functions as a body and as Paul demonstrates in 1 Corinthians 12, the Spirit chooses to work through believers to benefit others. We must find a way to make that connection.

I have yet to find a perfect church or one with which I agree 100%. My church journey since adolescence has taken me to the Church of the Nazarene, Conservative Baptist, Catholic and back to Church of the Nazarene. I have worshipped in every kind of denomination there is along the way. I am fortunate in my current church where I teach an adult Sunday School class. I teach Scripture as I see it and nobody in my class has complained about my recognition of polygamy as a legitimate practice in the Bible. We have couples that are not legally married and they are accepted. Our congregation has always been a kind of a hospital and over the years has welcomed a lot of needy people. On the other hand my wife and I began attending a Messianic Jewish synagogue on Saturdays over three years ago. The worship there is the most precious we have ever experienced.

If there is no local poly network the solution might be to look for a congregation where fringe people are welcome and you feel the Spirit in the worship. You might sit toward the back so as not to cause a distraction. Churches don’t typically check your creed at the door. I recommend a project of visiting a different church every Sunday for three to six months. Unless you sample there is no way to know where you will fit in.

If you find a church where you want to get more involved than just worship, talk to the Pastor, inform him of your situation and find out whether it is going to be a problem. I would avoid being judgmental and argumentative, but following the standard of 1 Peter 3:15 be prepared to give a concise reasonable explanation of your belief. If the Pastor should ask you to worship elsewhere accept his response graciously and leave. He is responsible, after all, for a lot of people, and maintaining the unity of the flock.

Above all, seek the leadership of the Spirit as to where you should worship. I really do believe that the Spirit places people in the Body as He desires (1 Corinthians 12:18).

 

[steve]

Above all, seek the leadership of the Spirit as to where you should worship. I really do believe that the Spirit places people in the Body as He desires (1 Corinthians 12:18).

amen to the whole post, but the last part is most important. He cares about you and desires to lead you to what is best for you and His kingdom.