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Perfection and fried chicken

Tlaloc

Member
Be ye perfect as you're father in heaven is perfect right? But the further we get from God the more difficult it is to see what that means. Its rooted in the idea of something being fully mended and functional, a perfect net was the one that had no holes in it (that fish could get through, of course). The net is broken, when its mended it's made perfect. That is apparently what the original meaning was.

Now the English word is very muddied as English people get further from understanding God. The word perfect now refers to some kind of unattainably high ideal, it is tied to concepts like being the best at everything or having everything go exacly, meticulusly the way someone wants it too. Its to the point where the word itself is offensive or ridiculus. This holds true among Christians, but I'm not sure most realize what effect this has on testimony outside the church.

Back when I was ministering to a new age\neopagan freind (the psudo-intelecual kind, not the complely detached from reality kind) I layered on numerous intelecual wins with everyting from anti evoloutuion to the idea of wrong existing. The critical loss point was heaven. Heaven was hell to her, the idea of a perfect place was so bad to her that she maintained and stayed that God could not be good because of heaven. Not because he keeps people out of heaven mind you, but because heaven is a perfect place. Just as christians shoot down other Christians at the very idea of being perfected, those against God can now shoot down God for the very idea of having a perfect place. For all the strongholds I broke down in the weeks of conversation that one could not fall. Christians embrace too readily that perfection is evil, so we give to our enimies the weapon that ANY perfection is evil.


To that end we must take back the word to what it was, not some abstract, high minded ideal but the basic objective of every Christian. To be dead to sin, to be holy, to be transformed. We are fallen, we are torn nets, and we seek to be fully mended. We do not have a goal to be a supernet, to some kind of idealized godlike (in the Roman sense) person, but only to be what we are supposed to be.

Lets face it, were bad employees. We come in late, pilfer from the till, slack off on the stock and are rude to coustomers. When anyone is hired that is interested in actually coming in on time and doing the job he was hired for we want to tear him down and make him quit so he stops making us look bad. We marginalize him, we call him goody goody, we dont invite him to any of our get togethers and we sabotoge him any way we can. It isnt like he's doing anything special either, he's just doing his basic job.

To most Christians, the bare minimum intention is way higher than we want to go, so we treat the bare minimum like it was impossible and anyone who tries to do it like a heretic.

Anyway, like I said, idealized perfection is a supernet, actual perfection is any net that isnt broken. We are all broken though, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the other side effect of the supernet ideal is the idea that there can only be one perfect just like there can only be one best. Because to us English to be perfect you have to be best. Really it just isnt so.

I make a nice fried chiken, its buttermilk marinated overnight, double battered with a nice blend of spices, and deep fried to perfection. Yesterday I switched powedered onion for brown sugar. It was less robust but had a sweet tang to it. Which recipie is beter? Who knows, the girls said they liked it the same, though it tastes quite different. Both of them are perfect recipies, and many more variants are too. There are surely hundreds of small varients in herbs and spices that would produce fine chicken.

That said, there are nigh infininte combinations that are horrible. Grass, dirt, arsenic, glass, cotton, drywall, wood, a lightbulb, on and on and on and on would not ever be ingredients in the prefect chicken. The overwhelming majority of substances on earth have no place in fried chicken. For the hundreds or even thousands of variants that are acceptable, the road to perfect fried chicken is extremely narrow and not to be stumbled upon by combining random objects.
 
That was very interesting. You cook well. It was very helpful as at this time I am interested in the application of seeking righteousness and virtue. One of the problems of attaining any degree of holy living is the sometimes hopelessness of the undertaking when viewed against the idea of absolute perfection. We should let Christ handle the absolute perfection and have confidence that we can improve our life and the condition of the net. I think if anything, keeping clean hands and heart helps not feeling so apart from a Holy God.
 
Thanks Weltan, I'm always glad if I may help. I'm a stay at home Dad and devote time and energy to pertinent arts such as cooking. Plus my Mom always worked long hours when I was young, so I did most the cooking since I was about 11.

I think were on the same page on this topic.

I started doing reserch to substantiate my premise (that the meaning of perfection has substantially changed) and strong coraborating information came with astounding ease.

Apparently the word came into English from Latin and old French. It entered as a theological term from the Latin Orthodox (Roman Catholic\Protestant) church. "To bring to full development". It came to us in the 1300's, and in 1657 the term perfectionist arose (I know not from where, other than it is a theological concept) then meaning "one who believes moral perfection may be attained in earthly existence;" It then comments that the sense of the word only changed in the 1930's.

Paraphrased Online Etymology Dictionary

Secondly it didn't mean no room for betterment, only that there was no impurity or defect or lacking nothing essential to the whole.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, has the following note.

Usage Note: Some people maintain that perfect is an absolute term like chief and prime, and therefore cannot be modified by more, quite, relatively, and other qualifiers of degree. But the qualification of perfect has many reputable precedents (most notably in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution in the phrase "in order to form a more perfect Union"). By the same token, perfect often means "ideal for the purposes," as in There could be no more perfect spot for the picnic, where modification by degree makes perfect sense.

The present concept of absoulute perfection is a modern permutation of the idea, thus for all theological purposes I call for its rejection. We should not reverse apply recently arisen concepts of meaning to Scripture which long predates it.

Both sources can be found at dictionary.com, which was my first stop, so yay, easy reserch today.
 
Guess that I have to weigh in here, since the message of ‘perfection in Christ’, is one of the main things that God has given to me in my ministry. If you want all the nitty-gritty, then you can download my book at http://www.perfectchristian.110mb.com and just go to the ‘perfection’ page, or go directly to the following page: http://www.perfectchristian.110mb.com/p ... e_book.htm. It is something that the apostles and early church understood and worked toward, (Philippians 3:12-16) but was lost and is ‘resurrected’ for this generation. If you do not like the word ‘perfect’ then you can use the word ‘mature’ since it is translated from the Greek word ‘teleios’, which implies an endpoint, (e.g., when used in words like telescope). I prefer to call it the ‘life in Christ’, (John 11:26). It is a place in Christ in which we LIVE and BELIEVE IN HIM. In that place, there is no sickness, lack or even death. Salvation is the alpha and the life in Christ, (i.e., perfection in Him) is the omega. It IS attainable in this life or Jesus would not have said that it is expected of us, (Matthew 5:48). I call Matthew chapters 5-7 the ‘path to perfection’. There are two ways to be perfected, according to what Christ told Martha in John 11:25-26 - either die in Christ or LIVE in Him. Do you believe this? Don’t reject this, receive it.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
All good information. Perfection becomes a living subject, instead of an impossible goal.

And Ray777 I did download and read some of your book, and the information on the perfection subject is helpful.
 
Well, for what its worth I think perfectionism is possible in the realistic context. But there is one thing that really ramps up the difficulty of attaining it. We need experience to grow in God and get understanding, we all can say we grow and learn, and for those who have consistantly grown it is easily said that someone who is 40 will have more depth than someone who is 20, and someone who is 80 is a great teacher. Of course for those who do not grow 80 is just more corrupt, but I'm talking about those in Christ.

In death the God given breath which gives us means to reason and interact with his world ceases. We reach the ultimate end of being without God. Such an expirience would kill any doubt or hesitation of our need for God, and easily kill whatever rebellion is left with us. Being perfected through that experience makes so very much sense. I cannot truely imagine it, even our ability to reason is through God, even that taken away.

The trouble is, how can one reach perfection without coming fully to that understanding? How can they reach permenent perfection without having that experience of total loss? I don't at all disbelive the possibility, but if we are ernest in our attempt to mortify the flesh and live in Christ I must ask for ideas. Enoch had centuries, Elijah was among the greatest of prophets.

Perhaps you have addressed such things already in you're works Dr. Ray, I havent gotten through most of them yet.

Anyway, God bless.
 
Since death has lost it's sting to the re-born Christian, and Christ handled the dying on the cross, I doubt that perfection based in actual death has any benefit. The daily dying to one's self is the attitude that seems productive.
 
That is a good point. Still, there must be some reason most Christians have go through death to get to heaven. I will have to considerer what I said again.

No sting for sure, as its scriptural.
 
Jair,

I have dealt with the issue you raised in several of my writings, including the book. What God showed me by the Word is that there are two ways people become perfected, especially according to John 11:25-26, either 1) die in Christ or 2) live in Christ. My pastor, (who is deceased) was the one who actually got the revelation of the ‘life in Christ’, (which is the latter state of ‘perfection’ in Him, i.e., #2 above) though he failed to achieve that state. When he died, God sort of ‘dumped’ the message in my lap, since everyone else in our small group quit. The reason I have the ministry that I do is because my pastor became disobedient and then died. I now have to try to get to the place in Jesus that he did not because God showed it to me and I believed, (unlike Martha). My pastor used to say there is no pretty way for the flesh to die and I agree. The path to perfection is littered with all the garbage that God purges from our hearts as we die to the flesh and begin to live and walk in the Spirit.

Perfection, or the life in Christ, is simply believing God and quickly obeying Him in everything. In this we die to self and live for Christ. The first way to perfection that comes through death in Christ and being raised in the first resurrection, (which is the path that most people will take since that is the only one really taught in the modern church) there is a more proximate passage into the perfected state that transcends time. What we live on this earth is not really even visible in the spectrum of eternity, (centuries or not) so there is no way that in our works, (exclusive of Christ) that we could prove to God that we are worthy of that eternity. God wants to know if He can trust us with eternal life. When we repent, believe and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior it shows God that we will indeed obey Him. However, if we willfully sin after accepting that sacrifice, then Hebrews 6 and 10 tell us that we will be headed for the lake of fire. I believe that many so-called Christians do not know that they are moving in that direction and the church is so afraid of offending them and losing their tithes and offerings that they will not warn them.

I warn people because I do not need anyone’s money, so I don’t care if I offend people. I speak the truth as God has revealed it to me and if people get offended by it, then that is their problem. The truth hurts sometimes, but no one should be offended by Jesus or they are not in the right place. I have spoken what God has given me to speak to the church. If people receive, believe and begin to walk in these things, then they get healed in their entire being as well as their finances, without me taking their money. Even on this site I have been persecuted directly and indirectly. I forgive those people, but I cannot help anyone who refuses to believe and operate in the truth. When the great tribulation comes, (and it is coming soon) then people will be perfected much more quickly, since it is through trials and tribulation, (including sickness and financial lack) that forces us down the path to perfection. Those who refuse to respond correctly to these things only go around the mountain instead of going up to where the eagles live. Though I am not yet perfected, I have seen that place and am by the grace of Christ moving toward it as quickly as possible. Time is short. This message is one that must be heeded if one wishes to skip the great tribulation. Dying to the flesh is not only possible, it is expected of us. Jesus and the apostles preached it. It is for us in the end-time to get there en-mass as the body of Christ in order to usher in His return, (Ephesians 4). A few will accept these words and get there before the trouble gets too bad. The rest will come out of the tribulation perfected in Christ either by death or learning quickly to live in Him.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
"simply believing God and quickly obeying Him in everything"

I'm going to have to remember that, especially the quickly part.

"God wants to know if He can trust us with eternal life."

The reverse application of this exact concept is the only way I have ever explained hell to an unbeliever and seen them both understand and accept it. Well said.

"the church is so afraid of offending them and losing their tithes and offerings that they will not warn them"

You should talk to my father-in-law about this, he lost his Pastorate partially based on teaching against tithes. The other part of this loss was a sermon saying pew sitting isnt good enough and condemning the vindictiveness of members of his church.
He actually did need the money from the job at that point, but he cared too much about what was true to keep quiet.

Saying the tribulation will force people to learn is a good point I had not considered. That is very useful.

I have been lax at going through the good material you layed out, time constraints and all, but I will keep up going through it.
 
I spent the better part of 2 plus years writing the book Who Said That You Should be Perfect?. Since I 'finished' it I have made a number of changes and still from time to time get new stuff from God that I add in support. I saw a new scripture today that I need to put in the footnotes. My usual approach to teaching writing is to put the words that God gives me to write in italics and the written Word in normal font. You will see if you read my teachings that my written words are few as compared to the amount of scripture in the text. I perceive my job to be as a helper to piece the material together so that it is easy for the person to read and get the meaning that God has 'hidden' in His Word. The 'here a little, there a little, line upon line...' thing. The reason that God hides His deeper truths is that He wants to challenge us to find it and put it together so that it will stick with us better. Anything worth having is worth working for. If a person wanted to do so, all of my teachings could be reviewed in the course of a few days. The book can be read in one sitting, I have done it several times and I read very slowly. In fact I read so slowly that when I took a reading test at the beginning of medical school, the counselor called me into her office and advised that I quit, since my reading skills were so poor. She said that I would never make it through the clinical years, as the time on the wards would be so demanding and I would have to read the material in my 'spare time', of which I would have little. She said I would not be able to do it. I thanked her and considered it a challenge. Long story short - I graduated medical school with honors. I not only passed my clinical courses, but received honors in several of them, including the hardest ones - Medicine and Surgery. I received the Department of Surgery award that was given to one student per year. To that date, I had scored the highest score ever in that school on the standardized surgery exam. Where we are weak, God can be strong. I thank God for the teaching gift that He works through me, but it is all Him.

Anyone who wants to use that gift merely has to read in a few days what I have taken years of long hours in the Word and sitting at the computer to put forth. The one man who has taken the time to read them all and walk in the principles that are found in them, (which is God's Word put together in way that is easily understood) has transformed his life. When I met him, he was lost in a morass of Biblical and humanistic words. He was sick with diabetes, in debt and his marriage was falling apart. He had been a Christian for 34 years and did not even know what his gift was. Now he knows that he is a prophet and operates as a prophet. He is healed, out of debt and has money in the bank. His marriage is restored and his wife, also a prophet, is now becoming more obedient and is operating in her gift. If people would simply put aside 'their thing' for a few days and take advantage of what God has done through me and others like me, they could also have these things. It has worked in my life and marriage, my friend Vivian's and now I just heard back from another spiritual son, (who went prodigal last year) that he is coming back, because he is sick and tired of trying to find God in the usual way and doing his own thing. I will quote from his recent e-mail...

“You were right Ray! Hard times did lie ahead, eventually arrived and test(ed) me to the fullest. Maybe, like Adam I tried to hide; which is easy enough to do from friends, even family; but not quite the same when it comes to our Lord and Saviour.”

“I truly hope all is still well with you and your family as well as Viv. I miss you all dearly. I seriously underestimated the spiritual strength that your prayers gave me. I've seen some up days and some really low days. I always realised the importance of what you told me, but never truly appreciated the gift that the Lord presented to me... through you. Your guidance and the clarity of your teachings is something I really long for. Donne and I have tried to find fellow "Christian Truth" here in London, but it is all filled with emptiness that is almost fake! I feel like I've been on a lonely shameful ride these last couple of months.”


If people would realize that God meant what He said through Paul in Ephesians 4 and would put aside their petty differences, operate in their gifts - in harmony, grow up, get healed, get their financial house in order and begin to work together instead of pulling in all different directions, we could tromp all over the enemy and Jesus would come back sooner rather than later.

Let me know as you go though God’s writings as done though me if there are any errors that I should address, or if God gives you anything to add from an apostolic viewpoint, since you are an apostle Jair.

Be blessed,

Ray
 
My wife has similar problems with reading skills. She has no problem contributing to advanced discussions and theology that would make peoples heads spin, but she reads slowly so one school labelled her as stupid and put her in a special class when she was young. Its frustratingly overvalued.

I'm very glad to hear you have someone coming back, that must warm you're soul.

Since my computer is back in order I'll get to reading some more of you're stuff, I was using an older laptop for a while so I did the bare minimum of on the computer reading. I'll probably open a page now and go through it.
 
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