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My Conversation with a Pastor

OttoM

Member
Male
The pastor who baptized me last year - I know goes to Africa to evangelize. I remember he mentioned to me last year (before the Lord lead me to truth in terms of Biblical marriage), there’s a lot of polygamous men there.

I haven’t been in touch with him for a while. But last week I sent him a message. Below is the conversation:

My message:
I’m doing very well - praise King Jesus. Michael is doing amazing, and he’s a year and half right now. He’s growing up big time.

But I was reading an article today on Catholicism - and how when they go to African nations with polygamous men - they would recommend the men to divorce their extra wives which in some cases causes the women to go into prostitution. I remember you mentioned you go to Africa to evangelize as well. I was just curious where you stand on that?

His reply:

This is a complex question that I not sure a text can fully answer. But, I will try to condense my biblical understanding in this answer. I believe marriage is to be between one man and one wife (Genesis 2:24 and Matthew 19:5). In fact God in the OT says not to multiply wives (Deuteronomy 17:17). So if they want to be pleasing to the Lord there is to be no sexual relationship outside of their wife and no polygamous relationships. Regarding the “extra wives” as the man has created this situation they I think they do bear a financial responsibility to help those women and any children that might have resulted.

If you have more questions or would like to study this just let me know.

My reply:

Thanks for your reply David. This is a longer message, but hope you go through it all; and pray on it to our Heavenly Father in Jesus’ mighty name:


Deuteronomy 17:17
And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.

Multiplying wives is in the same category as multiplying wealth. Do we also teach Christians they can only have (1) car? Only (1) house? Only (1) oz of Gold?

Furthermore, if the Master had no problem with his servant, David, having roughly 20 wives, then who are we to judge?

2 Samuel 12:8 (to king David)

I gave you your master’s house and his wives and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. And if that had not been enough, I would have given you much, much more.

Also to king david:

1 Kings 15:5

For David had done what was pleasing in the LORD’s sight and had obeyed the LORD’s commands throughout his life, except in the affair concerning Uriah the Hittite.

Therefore the Master, King Jesus Christ, had no issue with david taking care of multiple women and children through marriage. The marriage bed can not be defiled - but God will judge adulterers and fornicators (Hebrews 13:4).

A man (husband) becomes “one flesh” with any woman he has sex with. Even a prostitute, therefore, he can become one flesh with more than one woman:

1 Corinthians 6:16

Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” Flee from sexual immorality.

What about what Paul wrote regarding everyone having his own wife and her own husband? If you read what the Holy Spirit had Paul write in the original Greek Language, you’ll see that it’s an entirely different Greek word between the man and woman:

“Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own [heautou – exclusively owned] wife, and let every woman have her own [idios – shared] husband.”

If the Holy Spirit wanted monogamy only - then the Spirit could had Paul write “heautou” for both the husband and wife. No human translation is perfect - only the Holy Spirit is Perfect 🕊❤️

New Matthew Bible (from William Tyndale who was martyred. This came before the kjv):

Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that whosoever looks on a “wife,” lusting after her, has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Almost all translations translated the Greek word “γυναῖκα” to “woman” instead of correctly translating to “wife.” But for that same Greek word “γυναῖκα” they translate correctly to “wife” in every other verse. Including just 3 verses later:

Matthew 5:31

It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife (γυναῖκα) must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife (γυναῖκα) except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery.

1 Timothy 4:3
1 Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in later days people will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 3 They will “forbid marriage.”


Many churches, I believe, have been deceived by the adversary in terms of the Biblical Family Unit. It’s very clear from scripture that a man has a God given right to add multiple wives - as long as he meets Jesus’ guidelines for it. Of course any marriage vows (forsake all others) would dis qualify such a man. Of course - it’s illegal in the western world if you wish to get it done through the government

But for polygamous men in Africa - I don’t think it’s right to recommend them to divorce their wives without cause. Because it’s written - Jesus “hates” divorce. Also it’s written any man that divorces his wife for any reason except for her committing sexual immorality - and if she sleeps with another man - that man caused her to commit adultery. But this blame could be carried over to anyone that encouraged him to divorce his plural wives too. This is why I believe it’s very important to study this matter much more closely, and pray on it.


Been about 5 days - no response.
 
The pastor who baptized me last year - I know goes to Africa to evangelize. I remember he mentioned to me last year (before the Lord lead me to truth in terms of Biblical marriage), there’s a lot of polygamous men there.

I haven’t been in touch with him for a while. But last week I sent him a message. Below is the conversation:

My message:
I’m doing very well - praise King Jesus. Michael is doing amazing, and he’s a year and half right now. He’s growing up big time.

But I was reading an article today on Catholicism - and how when they go to African nations with polygamous men - they would recommend the men to divorce their extra wives which in some cases causes the women to go into prostitution. I remember you mentioned you go to Africa to evangelize as well. I was just curious where you stand on that?

His reply:

This is a complex question that I not sure a text can fully answer. But, I will try to condense my biblical understanding in this answer. I believe marriage is to be between one man and one wife (Genesis 2:24 and Matthew 19:5). In fact God in the OT says not to multiply wives (Deuteronomy 17:17). So if they want to be pleasing to the Lord there is to be no sexual relationship outside of their wife and no polygamous relationships. Regarding the “extra wives” as the man has created this situation they I think they do bear a financial responsibility to help those women and any children that might have resulted.

If you have more questions or would like to study this just let me know.

My reply:

Thanks for your reply David. This is a longer message, but hope you go through it all; and pray on it to our Heavenly Father in Jesus’ mighty name:


Deuteronomy 17:17
And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.

Multiplying wives is in the same category as multiplying wealth. Do we also teach Christians they can only have (1) car? Only (1) house? Only (1) oz of Gold?

Furthermore, if the Master had no problem with his servant, David, having roughly 20 wives, then who are we to judge?

2 Samuel 12:8 (to king David)

I gave you your master’s house and his wives and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. And if that had not been enough, I would have given you much, much more.

Also to king david:

1 Kings 15:5

For David had done what was pleasing in the LORD’s sight and had obeyed the LORD’s commands throughout his life, except in the affair concerning Uriah the Hittite.

Therefore the Master, King Jesus Christ, had no issue with david taking care of multiple women and children through marriage. The marriage bed can not be defiled - but God will judge adulterers and fornicators (Hebrews 13:4).

A man (husband) becomes “one flesh” with any woman he has sex with. Even a prostitute, therefore, he can become one flesh with more than one woman:

1 Corinthians 6:16

Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” Flee from sexual immorality.

What about what Paul wrote regarding everyone having his own wife and her own husband? If you read what the Holy Spirit had Paul write in the original Greek Language, you’ll see that it’s an entirely different Greek word between the man and woman:

“Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own [heautou – exclusively owned] wife, and let every woman have her own [idios – shared] husband.”

If the Holy Spirit wanted monogamy only - then the Spirit could had Paul write “heautou” for both the husband and wife. No human translation is perfect - only the Holy Spirit is Perfect 🕊❤️

New Matthew Bible (from William Tyndale who was martyred. This came before the kjv):

Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that whosoever looks on a “wife,” lusting after her, has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Almost all translations translated the Greek word “γυναῖκα” to “woman” instead of correctly translating to “wife.” But for that same Greek word “γυναῖκα” they translate correctly to “wife” in every other verse. Including just 3 verses later:

Matthew 5:31

It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife (γυναῖκα) must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife (γυναῖκα) except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery.

1 Timothy 4:3
1 Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in later days people will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 3 They will “forbid marriage.”


Many churches, I believe, have been deceived by the adversary in terms of the Biblical Family Unit. It’s very clear from scripture that a man has a God given right to add multiple wives - as long as he meets Jesus’ guidelines for it. Of course any marriage vows (forsake all others) would dis qualify such a man. Of course - it’s illegal in the western world if you wish to get it done through the government

But for polygamous men in Africa - I don’t think it’s right to recommend them to divorce their wives without cause. Because it’s written - Jesus “hates” divorce. Also it’s written any man that divorces his wife for any reason except for her committing sexual immorality - and if she sleeps with another man - that man caused her to commit adultery. But this blame could be carried over to anyone that encouraged him to divorce his plural wives too. This is why I believe it’s very important to study this matter much more closely, and pray on it.


Been about 5 days - no response.
Thanks for sharing this. I pray he will be convicted by the power of the Word and reconsider his position on marriage and divorce.
 
Good info. He probably will not accept the truth, but at least you presented it. I have also been considering sharing info with my pastor, but I am not sure when would be a good time and place. I may open up a can of worms and get myself removed from this church. I'm willing to do that, I just haven't done so yet.

I wrote a 15 page paper on polygyny. If any of you men would like to take a look at it and give me your feedback, PM me your email address. I plan on giving this paper to people when I educate them on Biblical marriage.
 
Good info. He probably will not accept the truth, but at least you presented it. I have also been considering sharing info with my pastor, but I am not sure when would be a good time and place. I may open up a can of worms and get myself removed from this church. I'm willing to do that, I just haven't done so yet.

I wrote a 15 page paper on polygyny. If any of you men would like to take a look at it and give me your feedback, PM me your email address. I plan on giving this paper to people when I educate them on Biblical marriage.
You don't have to go straight into polygamy, brother. The reason I did it with this pastor is because he goes to Africa where he meets polygamous men.

Instead - I HIGHLY recommend going after Matthew 5:28:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

That is a VERY HEAVY burden on Christian men. Imagine a Christian teenager who's hormones have begun to race, and he sees an attractive girl in his class (un-married ofc). Or perhaps a girl dressed in a bikini at the beach on vacation. He lusts after her - even though his pastor has taught him lusting for any woman = adultery. The punishment for adultery in the Mosaic law is the same punishment as a man lying with another man. So that tells me that our Heavenly Father and King Jesus view adultery as VERY SERIOUS.

If that young man believes in his heart that Matthew 5:28 applies to any woman (as taught in most churches) - then he's guilty of sin:

Romans 14:22-23
Blessed are those who don’t feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right. 23 But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it.

King Jesus about heavy burdens:

Matthew 11:28-30

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

The proper translation for Matthew 5:28 is "wife." Not "woman." A man may not covet something belonging to his neighbor. That includes his wife or wives. But, scripturally speaking, lusting for an un-married woman is not sin. However, that lust shouldn't turn to fornication. A man still has to control his lust, so he doesn't commit the sin of fornication. But even that can be made right if he took her virginity - that is by marrying her with the approval of her father. The punishment in the Mosaic Law also included paying the bride's price to her father. But compare that to the punishment of stoning to death if a man sleeps with another man's wife.

Matthew 23:13 - I believe easily applies to the in-correct teaching of Matthew 5:28:

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Also Luke 11:46

Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
 
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You don't have to go straight into polygamy, brother. The reason I did it with this pastor is because he goes to Africa where he meets polygamous men.

Instead - I HIGHLY recommend going after Matthew 5:28:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

That is a VERY HEAVY burden on Christian men. Imagine a Christian teenager who's hormones have begun to race, and he sees an attractive girl in his class (un-married ofc). Or perhaps a girl dressed in a bikini at the beach on vacation. He lusts after her - even though his pastor has taught him lusting for any woman = adultery. The punishment for adultery in the Mosaic law is the same punishment as a man lying with another man. So that tells me that our Heavenly Father and King Jesus view adultery as VERY SERIOUS.

If that young man believes in his heart that Matthew 5:28 applies to any woman (as taught in most churches) - then he's guilty of sin:

Romans 14:22-23
Blessed are those who don’t feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right. 23 But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it.

King Jesus about heavy burdens:

Matthew 11:28-30

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

The proper translation for Matthew 5:28 is "wife." Not "woman." A man may not covet something belonging to his neighbor. That includes his wife or wives. But, scripturally speaking, lusting for an un-married woman is not sin. However, that lust shouldn't turn to fornication. A man still has to control his lust, so he doesn't commit the sin of fornication. But even that can be made right if he took her virginity - that is by marrying her with the approval of her father. The punishment in the Mosaic Law also included paying the bride's price to her father. But compare that to the punishment of stoning to death if a man sleeps with another man's wife.

Matthew 23:13 - I believe easily applies to the in-correct teaching of Matthew 5:28:

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Also Luke 11:46

Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
It is nearly impossible to address a proper reading of Matt. 5:28 or study divorce or adultery without having to address polygyny. It is all interlinked. I was teaching a class on Romans and made the connection between Rom. 7:7 and Matt. 5:28 and immediately I started getting questions about men checking out non-married women. I wasn't prepared to out myself yet as believing in polygyny so I tried to keep the focus on young unmarried men facing uneccessary guilt, but if class had been any longer, I don't know how long I could have kept that up. The burden on young men is a heavy one and I appreciate and share your passion in relieving it.
 
This reminds me of an ethical question I have been considering after thinking back on my own journey of understanding. In situations like this, where there is a previous relationship and it is not a general post to the world like a blog or paper of some sort, should we warn people and give them the choice of entering this discussion? Sort of like a Matrix Red or Blue pill moment. In my weaker moments, I truly wish I never discovered the truth. This belief, as many here have first hand knowledge, can be life shattering. Should we warn people before taking them down this path?
 
This reminds me of an ethical question I have been considering after thinking back on my own journey of understanding. In situations like this, where there is a previous relationship and it is not a general post to the world like a blog or paper of some sort, should we warn people and give them the choice of entering this discussion? Sort of like a Matrix Red or Blue pill moment. In my weaker moments, I truly wish I never discovered the truth. This belief, as many here have first hand knowledge, can be life shattering. Should we warn people before taking them down this path?
Why make knowing the truth sound so fearful? Should we mask the truth about other biblical matters?
 
Should we warn people before taking them down this path?
I believe in testing the waters, if you give them a bit of the truth and they reject it, back off and give them some time. They might be more accepting later.
But don’t worry about the consequences of their receiving truth, that’s above our pay grade. Just don’t force it, Yeshua invited people into truth, with the exception of the religious people who were already convinced against the truth.
 
It is nearly impossible to address a proper reading of Matt. 5:28 or study divorce or adultery without having to address polygyny. It is all interlinked.
In a way, all truth is interlinked, isn't it? It's the proverbial can of worms. Once you start down the path, unless you deceive yourself, you unravel your entire worldview. Many aren't willing to go all the way. Because this:
In my weaker moments, I truly wish I never discovered the truth. This belief, as many here have first hand knowledge, can be life shattering.
I know the burden you are talking about. Lies are comforting. Religion is comforting. The truth scares the hell out of people.
 
I have had the experience of bringing the truth of polygyny to two pastors of small congregations over the years.
Neither of them accepted the truth and neither saw their 61st year. One was much younger.
Coincidence? Maybe.
 
In my weaker moments, I truly wish I never discovered the truth. This belief, as many here have first hand knowledge, can be life shattering. Should we warn people before taking them down this path?
I can relate. For over 20 years I believed this way, talked to people about it, found no one that really "got it," had even sisters in law "jump to confusions" and make assumptions about my reasons for liking the idea. I wondered at times why God would let us see this? Why He created me with this potential to like and welcome that possibility.....when it seemed so hopeless?

Don't get me wrong, there were many times over the years when we both felt the knowledge itself was freeing. I enjoyed hearing my husband's thoughts about issues or other women, and I was glad he didn't have to censor his thoughts or pretend around me. I felt trusted.
Now, at this point I am very glad we found this understanding, and the blessings possible are part of my life too. It's not just a belief that we get flack for, there are real and wonderful people that are very worth being "weird" for!

I guess we don't always see the purpose in the early stages, and I am glad I can advocate for this from a position of knowledge and experience now....instead of just theory and theology.
 
This teaching to a married man that was deceived by his church on Matthew 5:28 - may not bear good fruit. You have to consider if he took vows forsaking all others. Or if he's not in a financial position to take care of more than one wife. Then it becomes - what's the end goal if no good fruit comes out of it (taking care of more than one wife)? Perhaps if he has teenage children - then I can see good fruit potential.
 
Pastors are lost cause. Explained here:

 
This teaching to a married man that was deceived by his church on Matthew 5:28 - may not bear good fruit. You have to consider if he took vows forsaking all others. Or if he's not in a financial position to take care of more than one wife. Then it becomes - what's the end goal if no good fruit comes out of it (taking care of more than one wife)? Perhaps if he has teenage children - then I can see good fruit potential.
The end goal is that everyone understands all truth.
It doesn’t matter whether it may bear good fruit in their lives or not, they may pass it along to someone who needs it.
 
Pastors are lost cause. Explained here:

Almost every married couple took "forsake all others." So the pastor would have to tell them you've made vows - similar to how Job made a vow not to even look at a young woman. Those men that took 'forsake all others' need to get permission from their own wife to relieve that vow.

But the pastor shouldn't shield this truth from his congregation when presented. Because he would just be continuing a very deceptive teaching of Matthew 5:28 to the next generation. It's one thing to do it ignorantly - but it's a different ball game doing it without ignorance. Because you then may be responsible for every kid who commits adultery by lusting over an attractive unbethroned woman.

It's much, much better for the pastor to get kicked out for teaching the truth versus shielding it on purpose.
 
I can relate. For over 20 years I believed this way, talked to people about it, found no one that really "got it," had even sisters in law "jump to confusions" and make assumptions about my reasons for liking the idea. I wondered at times why God would let us see this? Why He created me with this potential to like and welcome that possibility.....when it seemed so hopeless?
I think one reason other people don't get polygyny is due to assumption from culture about our biology.

We culturally refuse to accept some obvious truth. Immigration as solution for populatuon problem instead of "bro, do your wife naturally".

Sex as child making act is completely verboten. No, that is fetish like something strange.

We culturally refuse to see obvious truth. No wonder something strange is so problematic.
 
Almost every married couple took "forsake all others." So the pastor would have to tell them you've made vows - similar to how Job made a vow not to even look at a young woman. Those men that took 'forsake all others' need to get permission from their own wife to relieve that vow.
Less important. And question is do you have to keep wow based on lie.

But the pastor shouldn't shield this truth from his congregation when presented. Because he would just be continuing a very deceptive teaching of Matthew 5:28 to the next generation. It's one thing to do it ignorantly - but it's a different ball game doing it without ignorance. Because you then may be responsible for every kid who commits adultery by lusting over an attractive unbethroned woman.
Worderful recommendation.

Tell truth and get booted out of church. Read rest of thread. This can't come as top-down, but as bottom up change. Societal reasons.

Think a little. Some will never accept this truth and some will be slow. So, what do to with them? And what is they are majority? Well, them pastor out.
 
Less important. And question is do you have to keep wow based on lie.
Good question. You have to show me in scripture that a man can break a vow made to God that was based on a lie - and I will gladly accept it. Even if he can - it's good the first wife is submitting to the man's will, and they are "one flesh" on this goal. On paper - it looks easy, because the wife is instructed to be submissive to her husband. But because of the conditioning of the modern day church and social norms - this is like climbing a mountain.

That's why it becomes very fruitful for an un-married man to receive this truth - because then he can set the expectations before marrying a woman; and wouldn't encounter obstacles or resistance along the way. This is also one reason a pastor that knows the truth - should not shield it.
 
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It's much, much better for the pastor to get kicked out for teaching the truth versus shielding it on purpose.
Yes, but try to convince them of that. Their paycheck is at stake. Not to mention their wife’s peace of mind.

One of the reasons that the present system of a paid leader of the local assembly never was Yah’s plan. It is a leftover from Catholicism. IMO.
 
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