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Mark of Hell

Tlaloc

Member
I've been pondering something for a while and it just came together.

Marx wanted his glorious revolution to create a 'perfect world' where people work together without God.

Many a sound theologian has defined Hell as 'the absence of God'


If that's granted as true, Marxism literally wants to bring hell to earth. It kind of puts the power struggle into context.
 
It is not true that Hell is the absence of God though. If God is omnipresent, which he is, then even his presence is in hell. His presence in hell though is in the form of wrath and judgement. Those theologians who define hell in that way normally would not have thought through the implication of how that kind of statement would undermine that central confession of God's omnipresence.

Yet in regard to Marxism it is a serious philosophical system that is devoid of God's blessings. So in that sense it is absent of God's hand of grace or his active presence of grace as a system. That much is certainly true.
 
Dr. Allen said:
It is not true that Hell is the absence of God though. If God is omnipresent, which he is, then even
his presence is in hell.
Absolutely true!
Psalms 139:8 NKJV If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
 
Years ago, after failure after failure, I became convinced that I was probably not one of the chosen and was on the way to hell. Why else would God seem to work in everyone's life except mine? So being the difficult person I was, I made a pact in my heart that the moment I placed my feet in hell I was going to say "praise God" with all my might. After considering the ridiculous implications of me doing this, I laughed until I cried. Obviously I was not acceptable material in heaven or hell. I had so much fun with this idea that I finally realized that this joy of saying “praise God” in the face of hell itself, meant I could probably say “praise God” in the face of whatever life was bringing me here on earth. I admit, it was kinda a back door approach to getting the joy of the Lord, but what the heck, I got it and praise God!
 
As usual, inexact statements get me nowhere.

Hell, as in damnation after judgment, is separation from God's kingdom and immediate rule and presence. One necessary element of hell is that it is not heaven, it is not the Kingdom of God, it is another kingdom.

Mind, to say God MUST be everywhere seriously undermines his authority and power, Omnipresence as in he may be anywhere he wishes to be is great, but to say he must be in hell at all times is highly questionable. Omnipresence defined that way paints God as being confined everywhere, and not having the basic freedom of location that any mortal enjoys. It is also dangerously close to Pantheism, if God is and must be everywhere, he must be in everything even demons and the devil himself, and that's a road I don't really want to travel.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

God was with David, and he could go nowhere to flee from God's leading. David could not escape him if he wanted to no matter where he went, not even in the grave could he escape him. It doesn't prove God is permanently residing in the everlasting punishment of Hell. Context, Context, Context.

In scripture it was perfectly possible to leave Gods presence or to be forcefully cut off from Gods presence as much as it was possible to come into Gods presence. No, such a notion of omnipresence as you two present is an ideal that has everything to do with making God meet human ideals and nothing to do with Scripture. It is no more sound that if I said 'if he's God he must do everything, he must be omniactive' and thus he must sin and kill as much as he loves and is Holy. He certainly must be theoretically able to do anything, but he really must be and is free to choose what he wants to do as much as he must be and is free to be where he wants to be.


It's nice to be confronted by ones own absurdity eh Welltan? At least its nice to be confronted with it and be able to laugh.
 
My small testimony was not a comment on the character of hell but rather the need for the joy of the Lord.

My opinions on the character of hell would not leave it an abstraction without God's influence but rather an object completing Gods judgement, with the fire fueled eternally by God's decree. Part of the problem is that however hell is defined, it must not at this time rob from the definition of the lake of fire as in Rev 20, as hell at this time is not yet in the lake of fire. However in the future for the damned, the definition of hell will fit nicely into the definition of the lake of fire as that is where hell will be. Also, it seems it must be defined as an actual solid place or thing, otherwise how can it be picked up and tossed.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:14
 
Mind, to say God MUST be everywhere seriously undermines his authority and power, Omnipresence as in he may be anywhere he wishes to be is great, but to say he must be in hell at all times is highly questionable. Omnipresence defined that way paints God as being confined everywhere, and not having the basic freedom of location that any mortal enjoys. It is also dangerously close to Pantheism, if God is and must be everywhere, he must be in everything even demons and the devil himself, and that's a road I don't really want to travel.

Tlaloc,

If you will look I believe you will find that you have an evuivocation error in that being everywhere and being in everything is not the same. Pantheism is the idea that God is IN every sphere or piece of material. Omnipresence is the doctrine that God's presence is everywhere but not in the physical material itself.

As for basic freedom God can be active in an area or not active in an area. But because we live and move in his being (see Acts 17), it suggests that the universe can never be outside of the mind/eye/presence of God. Hebrews 1:1-3 also suggests that the universe, and hell would thus be included, is upheld by God. Plus, it seems to me you have a definition of God as if he is some physical being in that his location is defined by his physical quality.

But as a Spirit God is not bound by hands or physical locations. He is transcendant, above and outside of the sphere of physical quality and thus this is why he can indeed be everywhere yet not in the physical material itself. His being is Spirit and thus as Spirit he dwells around the entire universe yet also keeping his distinction from the material world itself because he is Spirit and not a part of creation itself as pantheism would assert.

As for his authority and power I've never seen any respected theologian ever assert that God's omnipresence would undermine his power. To the opposite what I have seen is that it is exactly with this reason that they assert God has all authority. He can excercise rule and dominion over all because he is present everywhere. He does not have to fly from one place to another to exert his power. He can exert his power over any sphere at any second because his presence is there.

As for hell and the kingdom of God, would it not be better to define the kingdom of God as the place where he rules? There seems to be a macro kingdom and then local micro kingdom spheres. Hell is certainly a place where God is still over by his authority. He created hell and he casts people into hell and he keeps hell as such. Thus, it would seem to me the kingdom of God is not just heaven or where there is a righteous people. God certainly even rules over Satan and Satan has to have God's permission to act. Thus, even Satan is under God's kingdom sphere in a sense.
 
Keith,

You're splitting hairs and it's not working well. If God must be everywhere he must be everywhere, if there is a bottle he must be in that bottle, as inside that bottle is somewhere and he must be everywhere. Omnipresence as you use is is saying that God is everywhere, everywhere refers to every physical place. Either you are proposing that matter displaces God's presence and thus he is everywhere except where matter exists (nonsense, btw) or you are proposing that God is IN everything, or at least his presence (which inseparable from God) is in everything, including demons. By definition, to be everywhere you must be in all things.

As for basic freedom God can be active in an area or not active in an area.

But you still maintain he must be there, the basic freedom of motion is denied to him. As to Acts 17, I said it to Polydoc and I'll say it to you. Context, Context, Context!

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God,

This chapter does not at all support the philosophical necessity of God being everywhere at all times, it emphasizes repeatedly that God created the universe and life and us, that is the meaning of 'in him we live and move and have our being' and it is explained to mean that repeatedly in the surrounding context. That he is never far from those who would seek him or any of his creations is neither surprising nor a case for mandatory omnipresence. It flows from being his creation and his active part in redemption of the lost.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,
and upholding all things by the word of his power,
when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Upholding all things not by his presence, but by his word. The word which goes forth out of him to uphold all things. He is GOD, the True and Living God. He is not Atlas who has to go out and hold the world up with his presence, nor Apollo who needs to get up every day and haul the sun through the sky, but He is the True and Living GOD who's word alone is enough to create all things and maintain all things. Do you at least concede that like scripture says, his mere word is enough to create and maintain all things, and that things do not need his immediate presence to go on if he says they should go on?

God is certainly a physical being, he choose to become one, and this is a central doctrine of Christianity which you will not argue with once its pointed out. That understood, he, like us, also has a spirit. That spirit is certainly not 'everywhere' but manifests itself in particular locations to particular people at particular times. Simply being a spirit does not force someone to be 'everywhere' and a spirits location can correspond to a physical location (this you must concede, or omnipresence is out of the question as well)

He can excercise rule and dominion over all because he is present everywhere. He does not have to fly from one place to another to exert his power. He can exert his power over any sphere at any second because his presence is there.

Once again, you are saying God is so weak he must be physically present somewhere to excersize his rule and dominion. Its about time you started a study on what God did 'by his word' not 'by his pressense' not 'because he was there' but look at what he can do by his word alone. The you will come to see that he can excessive rule and dominion over all because HE IS GOD and has so much authority that he only has to say something for it to happen, not because of your ideal of omnipresence.

You're mixing idle philosophy and human invention with theology when you say God Must be everywhere. Scripture does not say this, reason does not say this, but the foolish human drive to make God fit all their ideals says this. It is no more founded to say 'God must be everywhere' than to say 'God must do everything' or 'God must be in everything'. Such is philosophical nonsense and idolatry which always reduces our God in one way or another to the foolish Grecio-Roman gods. Scripture talks about God's presence and the presence of his spirit more than enough to understand it, it is not everywhere all the time, it may be put upon people or a place and it may be removed from people or places. Scripture also explains clearly how the universe is maintained, and that is by his word, not his presence.

Yes, he has authority over Hell and the devil himself, that does not mean he resides in Hell nor that he is normally there. It is not better to define the Kingdom of God as any place where God has authority though, that's not how Christ used it. When Christ said seek ye first the Kingdom of God he did not mean, 'seek any kingdom, because God rules them all' but meant something more specific than that.

Welltan,

I know, it was a good testimony.

My opinions on the character of hell would not leave it an abstraction without God's influence

I agree, I'm saying it lacks his glorious and wonderful presence, the presence and residence of God is what makes heaven so worthwhile. I'm not saying it isn't a place He created and planned, I'm saying he doesn't live there.
 
Hummmm....sounds like I touched a nerve there with ya brother.

I am not eager to dive into a full fledged debate here in a public forum over the classical attributes of God. I've done that at philosophical and theological societies enough as is.

So, let me simply ask you here so I can at least understand your position. Are you saying that God as Spirit is not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent? Do you reject one of those, two of those, three of those, or all four of those?
 
I am saying, as I said, that God (as a spirit) is not forced to be in any particular location at any particular time, and that even a cursory reading of scripture shows that he can be present somewhere or absent somewhere. He may be anywhere he wishes to be, but he is not required to be anywhere. He is omnipresent in the sense that he can be anywhere, to say he must be everywhere is absurd.

If one can do all things through Christ it follows Christ can do all things. That is enough scripture for omnipotence. But once again, I say God is omnipotent in that he can do anything, not that he must do everything, that would be as absurd as you're version of omnipotence.

I have no clear verse for omniscience, he certainly knows anything he needs to know. Anything further than that is speculation unless there is a proof verse for it.

Omnibenevolence is an odd question, I'd have to ask what you mean by that. He is love, and loves the world, that much is granted. He certainly does not have kind feelings toward everyone at all times though, He is once again perfectly capable of anger, hatred, and turning away from people or groups of people.
 
This is a really interesting point

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Thessalonians 1:9 KJV

They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
2 Thessalonians 1:9 NIV 2010

They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
2 Thessalonians 1:9 NIV 1984

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:9 NASB

Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Amplified

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 1:3 NIV 2010

19 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
Exodus 33:19-20 NIV 2010
 
He may be anywhere he wishes to be

I think my question is more one of not can he but is he. I see presence as different than permeation.

In other words, if I walk into a 3 story building is God's presence in every room that I walk into? Is he there, or does God dwell in Spirit in some sense everywhere I go? Even furthermore, in your view do you believe that God's presence is in or around all of the rooms simultaneously?

Or on the other hand can I find some place or walk into some place where God is not there?
 
I would say, and scripture would as well, the the spirit of God is not present most places. The presence of the Lord is a special thing to be sought after and savored, it is both stilling and refreshing. It is not something to be sullied by intellectual abstractions and human ideals of God being everywhere always.

Weather you specifically can walk away from God, I don't know, only if he would let you. Can a person in general do it? Certainly, Adam, Even, and Cain all did it within the first 5 chapters of scripture.

The Spirit of God comes and goes as He pleases. It is starkly contrary to scripture to say He is everywhere at all times, His spirit is present at different places at different times for different people. Such is how the Bible describes his spirit, such is as it is. There is no room in scripture for his spirit to be everywhere, his spirit is already said to come some places and go others. To say 'God is Omnipresent' you must be working with a different definition of presence than is found in scripture and must abstract God's spirit, and that doesn't fly with me.
 
Tlaloc said:
I would say, and scripture would as well, the the spirit of God is not present most places. The presence of the Lord is a special thing to be sought after and savored, it is both stilling and refreshing..

The presence of God is called the Shekhinah. :D

B
 
Hmm, its nice to have a language that draws meanings from so many sources. Too bad it screws with our phonetics so badly though...

Thanks for that.
 
Can God's presence be in multiple places at multiple times then in your view? Can he be in more than one place at the same time or is he bound/limited to only one place at each moment wherever he chooses to be at that moment in your view?
 
Tlaloc said:
To say 'God is Omnipresent' you must be working with a different definition of presence than is found in scripture and must abstract God's spirit, and that doesn't fly with me.

What I have come to understand is since we are created in the image of God, God is with everyone wherever they go. But, through the work of Christ and activation of the Holy Spirit we are given the likeness of God. God is in everything. I'm sure you have heard of the "string theory", it is now scientifically proven that John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" is true. Everything from the dust on this earth to the hairs in our noses was made by God/Christ; which leaves an imprint or an eye (you could say)!

So, it's not so much the absence of God being in one place, it's the "feeling" of God that can be absent. God is always before, behind, above, below, here, there and everywhere! What scriptures are you referring to about His absence AT THIS TIME?
 
God is always before, behind, above, below, here, there and everywhere!
;)

Christ as the incarnate God in the flesh is localized and can only be at one place at one time but God as Father, he is present everywhere but not in or permeated into everything (as pantheism teaches).

The doctrine of omnipresence is designed to give us hope and comfort in that we know that wherever we go we are not alone, that God is always present there, close by, near us. It is ultimately about God's love. He loves us by his omnipresence in that he is always present, near us, which to us as believers should give us hope. Of course to sinners and those who oppose him it causes consternation and fear, as it should.
 
Nicola,

An imprint or image is not the same as the thing itself. Only Christ Jesus is the express image of God. Being with creations is not the same as being with the creator.

As for verses, there are three in which people are actually or theoretically removed from or cut off of from his presence while on earth, and numerous where people enter into his presence. To enter in, you have to be outside of something. The negatives are Genesis 3:8, 4:16, and Levi 22:3. Hell is also described as away from God in 1 Thesselonians (as Discussing said) and as outer darkness, being cast out of the Kingdom of God, 3 times in Matthew.

Keith,

The doctrine of omnipresence is designed to give us hope and comfort in that we know that wherever we go we are not alone,

You're designing doctrine. That's the problem. Our hope is in eternal life. God's guidance is something we can see and see the effects of, it is not hope, and he doesn''t need to be immanently to speak and guide us and know what is going on with us any more than he needs to be present for his orders to be carried out in nature. He is with us so far as we have the indwelling of his holy spirit, but even that is something special for Christians and not just plain everywhere.

I don't even have to be present with someone to talk to them, look at what we're doing here. Certainly God is grater than the internet :)
 
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