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Lying in a good cause

CecilW

CecilW

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Discussed elsewhere, but I don't remember where. And anyway, this is a new thought / addition to the discussion ...

3 x Samson lies to Delilah, and the power of God remains upon him. He pops up, shakes himself, busts the ropes, and kills a bunch of Philistines.

1 x he tells Delilah the truth, and God's power leaves him.

Why? In the last case, the covenant is broken. Not a matter of his being naive or practicing disinformation towards an enemy in time of war.

Relevance? Dunno. Just interesting.
 
It's not about the lying. His strength was given to him if he obeyed God in not cutting his hair, and I think he wasn't supposed to drink alcohol too?
When he let his hair be cut he broke that covenant with God and so his strength was taken away. Lying or telling the truth didn't matter as that was not what God had said would have anything to do with his strength.
 
I agree that lying didn't make a difference to his strength. He had to obey God in the very specific instructions he had been given (not cutting his hair or drinking wine), that was it.

However that doesn't mean the lying was ok. I am sure he could have found a way of dealing with that situation that did not involve lying. The ultimate "cause" was getting captured by the Philistines, as through that God gave him the opportunity to kill a whole pile of them. Lying didn't change that result, it just delayed it. He could have told the truth at the start and achieved exactly the same thing a little bit earlier. Or he could have just refused to tell her and avoided the situation completely. Just because he chose to lie does not mean it was ok.
 
Not defending lying. Just an interesting observation that even tho lying lips are an abomination unto the Lord (Prov ?:??), at least in this situation they did not cause God's Spirit to leave him.

It is merely another puzzler observation to go along with the one about Rehab lying to save the Israelite spies, and God telling Samuel to misdirect Saul's attention from his real purpose of anointing David, and any others.
 
I am generally against lying, though I've had this idea in my head that it could be described as an issue of "weightier matters" ( As when the Messiah spoke to the Pharisees about tithing cumin, but neglecting weightier matters such as justice ) So, you should tithe ( and tell the truth ) generally speaking, but if the Gestapo shows up at your door and asks if there are Jews hiding there... I think you probably see where I am going with this.

Any thoughts?
 
I believe honesty is the best policy. :) However, I don't have to answer the question if asked.
That said,Ex 20:16 : You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. I've always found it odd that God didn't just come out and say lying. Taken by itself one could easily say, that lying when it hurts another person should not be done but other lies may not be a problem. Example: Lying about one's weight to a friend.

Lev 19:11 In the English seems more clear, do not steal, nor deal falsely nor lie. It's interesting that the same Hebrew word is used twice both for deal falsely and the word lie. Is Shaqar, verb which means : to do or deal falsely, be false, trick, cheat. This word is different from Sheqer in the Exodus passage which is a masculine noun, means:
lie, deception, disappointment, falsehood
deception (what deceives or disappoints or betrays one)
deceit, fraud, wrong
fraudulently, wrongfully (as adverb)
falsehood (injurious in testimony)
testify falsehood, false oath, swear falsely
falsity (of false or self-deceived prophets)
lie, falsehood (in general)
false tongue
in vain
Click to expand...

Looks like it would be an interesting word study to do. If I'm understanding you correctly, you are asking in what situations might it be okay to lie, mislead, deceive?
I don't believe we see God condoning lying, however, God does seem to support some deception as pointed out in this article (which I only skimmed fragments of)Is It Ever Right to Lie, God told Samuel to go anoint a king, but to do so under the cover of going to sacrifice. I Sam 16. The author's point is that deception is not lying. Again, you'll need to read and decide for yourself, I read just a handful of sentences as I skimmed for the main thoughts. Great question!
 
Even God practiced deception in His warfare against the devil, for there is a passage in the NT which says something to the effect that if the demons had understood what would be accomplished by Christ's death, they would NOT have killed Him. So God pulled a fast one on 'em. Apparently Jesus knew, and alluded to it a bit, but didn't spill the beans.
 
I see a large distinction between deception and lying. The demons did not know, but they were not lied to to achieve this.

I never lie to my children. However I manage to keep a lot of knowledge from them until they are an age when I feel they will understand it better! :D
 
Bingo. God cannot lie.

But he can misdirect folks' and demons' attention.

And perhaps that's the answer to the Samson story. He was misdirecting their attention to draw them in. Why was that necessary?

Let me speculate that by this time in his life, the Philistines were getting pretty wary of Samson, and tended to stay out of his way. "Hey. I hear Samson's headed down to Hebron!" "Really? I just remembered, I've got urgent business in Jericho!"

So perhaps it started as a deliberate tactic to draw them into range.
 
If there is one lesson I have learned, it is that omitting information is not the same as lying. I can refuse to tell something, but in my understanding if I intentionally lead someone astray or make them think that something happened that did not, I would be guilty. This, of course, is just how I see things. We ought to speak only that which is profitable, edifying, and encouraging. For the record though, if you don't want a blatantly honest answer about your weight, some illogical doctrine, etc. it would be best to ask someone else :lol:

I get in trouble for speaking my mind a lot, and am learning to just keep my big mouth shut at times. When cornered, I will give the full, unedited, in your face kind of truth that most people really don't want to know. :shock:
 
I have found that many manipulate the truth to lead others to believe something entirely different from the facts. Suppose someone came to you and said her husband hit her. That is bad. Correct? Now what if hubs defended himself and said he rolled over at night and his arm flopped onto his wife's face? Is that excusable or should the dude be arrested for assault? Now you see that telling the truth while omitting a pertinent fact may force the hearer to believe something awry. I am reminded though that the fool tells everything he knows but the wise man will keep it in.

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I think that Jacobhaivri is onto something. I can't help but think about intentions when it comes to lying. Take Nazi Germany, we've heard stories of those harboring Jews. Well obviousely one would lie to to the Gestopo if questioned. I would consider this a rightiouse lie.
 
I would have to question where anyone would find a "righteous lie" anywhere in the character of God. Omission is a discussion maybe worth having, but lying I just don't see how that would be accepted.
 
There was no need to lie to avoid the Gestapo finding Jews, in fact many people managed to do that sort of thing without lying. Corrie ten Boon did her work without lying. One time she had some men in the cellar, the trapdoor covered by a rug with the table over top. When asked where they were, she said "under the table"! Which was true, but at that the soldiers gave up and left...

I also know of a man who was working with the resistance, but never lied. One day he was smuggling a radio in a suitcase on a public bus. The soldier at the door asked "What have you got in the suitcase". He said "A radio-transmitter" - at which the soldier cracked up laughing and told him to get on the bus...

Telling the truth can actually be the best policy, even where it seems the wrong thing to do! What other answer could that man have given the soldier that would have avoided him being asked to open the suitcase?

On another note, just because it's an interesting story, I even know of a British man who was determined to work as a spy, but spoke terrible French or German and really couldn't hide his accent. So he pretended to be deaf-and-dumb, becomng the slightly disabled weirdo that everyone felt sorry for and wasn't at all scared of, especially because they thought he couldn't hear what they were saying anyway... It would have avoided him lying too as it avoided him talking at all, but that wasnt the point of it!
 
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable , and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 Guess this speaks for its self .



Dairyfarmer
 
Oh dear thanks for that, nothing like a little fire and brimstone to turn me right off. Well fine then remind me not to come to your house if I'm every running from an evil establishment.

Okay if we want to get picky about the omiting info verses out right lying, you may be right. Though that sounds a little leagilist. Best not tell the kids, they can make what ever happend look good by omiting detials. I mean it's not a sin right? True recent story: Small child bites older child twice. Older child tells his mom. Mom speaks to the small boys mother, she could have even complained to staff at the local pool, having small child kicked out of the pool. Turns out older child had been throwing the child away from the hot tub entriance repiatly dunking him under, thus smaller child couldn't pass him. In defence the small child being younge and not chosing the best method of communication did infact bit him twice. Now if the story was told correctly it would be the older boy who would be kicked out of the pool. It makes a difference. The intention behind our words make the world of a difference. Such as midwives lying in order to save the lives of hebrew babies.

Any way I was looking for some info on a couple of things that came to mind scriptualy such as midwives lying and found this artical. Fearcely defending not lying and refuting any evidence scriptualy to the contrary because god allowed people to be polygamist too and we all know that's wrong :roll:
http://www.christiancourier.com/article ... -for-lying
 
That's actually quite a good article FunGirl, apart from that nonsense about God tolerating sins like polygamy!

Nobody is perfect, everybody sins occasionally. Even while doing a great work for God, part of what we do will no doubt be wrong somewhere, because we are human. God's commendation for the result does not mean that ever part of the method was ok - the end does not justify the means. But He doesn't necessarily choose to get too picky about pointing out every little detail either in a brief account like that of the midwives - he'll run through those one day before His great white throne, and ultimately forgive us for them if we have accepted Him.

So yes, some people will lie in order to do God's work. And sometimes it may well work. I would however contend that it is better not to lie - as scripture clearly teaches that.

If we can't see how telling the truth would work, that just shows our weak human understanding. We can even hide people from "evil establishments" without lying - if we have enough faith. And that would take enormous faith. I pray I never have to find out whether I have that faith...
 
has anyone considered that samson had put himself in a place where he did not belong?
lying would never have come up if he had avoided falling in love with a heathen.

Then his father and his mother said unto him, [Is there] never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

i suppose that it is hard to raise a child that is anointed by YHWH from the womb and not have him turn out self-centered.
 
It is possible that God did not mean all forms of lying, omission of truth, etc. but I am going to choose to err on the side of caution as I do believe the God of truth can and will either deliver me from evil or guide me safely through the worst the world could send my way.
Click to expand...
amen, bro
 
Hmmm... For the sake of keeping the discussion interesting ...

God made Adam and Eve naked in the garden. That's pretty wide open. No concealment. No "privacy, except what is entirely inside of your brain.

But pretty much as soon as sin entered the equation, He made them clothing. That provides concealment and some degree of privacy.

So the question arises: Does God support the right to privacy? To conceal your own private business from insistent prying eyes? Even those who loudly PROCLAIM their right to pry?

I notice that the 9th commandment does not simply say, "Thou shalt not deceive in any way," but very specifically, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Proberbs even goes on to suggest that it is far better not to bear even true witness at times, as it can cause unnecessary trouble between friends.

That leaves us, potentially, with the freedom to deceive those who are prying into our own business. I have read and re-read the story of God telling Samuel to conceal the purpose of his trip to anoint David king of Israel from Saul by means of saying, "I'm gonna do a sacrifice thang", and can find no way to explain it other than a Divine command to practice a deception in defense of privacy, or perhaps as part of the great War Between Light and Darkness. Sun Tzu woulda been proud! :roll:
 
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